Fights as Spanish Civil War clergy are beatified

[Richardols]

Originally Posted by RomanCrusader
"The depraved communistic “Popular Front” had utterly destroyed Spain as a nation.

An exaggeration."

No but they were well in their way to doing it. Remember the burning of churches and killings of priest and nun began before Franco’s uprising. Spain as a nation was well on the way towards disintegration.

Keep in mind that the leftist government had been legitimately elected - they were not the communists, who took advantage.

:
Francisco Franco and the brave falange

Ever so brave - aided by his buddies Hitler and Mussolini and their “volunteers” and the Nazi Condor Legions.
Well, the Republic had volunteers from all the communist globe including Stalin’s NKVD, how often people forgot that.

So, it’s okay to become Hitler’s and Mussolini’s buddy because the communists sent their own volunteers. Two wrongs make a right?

After the war Franco took the necessary steps to ensure that the communists could never hurt Spain again.

Not just communists - with his dictatorship, he suppressed everyone who opposed him in any way.
Well, yes he was a dictator and he suppresed socialists, communists, and ethnic nationalist but in his group were facist, monarquists and free market conservatives. If you compare the books printed in Spain during Franco regime there was far more freedom than under a comunist dictatorship.

Sure, and getting punched around every day is a lot better than being burned with hot pokers every day. What sort of a comparison are you making? The fact remains that he was a dictator and squelched anyone who opposed him.

It is true that some falangist militia did very bad things post-war, but Franco intended only to execute militant communists. The fact that his falangists got out of line should not be held against him.

He was in charge, he’s responsible.

Agreed, but the Republicans were as rutless executing Franco’s sympatizers in the parts of Spain they controlled. It was a no quarter given, no quarter asked war.

You are doing no more than making excuses under the rubric that “the other guy is bad too.” Bad is bad. Ruthlessness is not excused by the ruthlessness of another.

Quote:
During WWII, Franco was very neutral.

He was a belligerent neutral who favored the Nazis.

Not so according to moder research. He send people to fight the commies in Rusia but never tried to fight the western allies and even refused to handle over the germans allied airmen who escaped to Spain.

Err… his government definitely favored the Nazis, his “humanitarian” gestures notwithstanding. And, the Soviet Union was our ally. His fighting them sapped some of the Soviet strength we needed to fight the Nazis, and those Spaniards who went east and died there were our enemies as well as of the Russians.

Such a humanitarian!

Yes he was! Remember in those times, even the US refused to admit jewish refugees. And he did. He even tried to save the Sephardic jews of Salonica and Yugoslavia. As the current great Rabbi of Madrid said, he did a lot for the Jews, even more that some allied countries.

Which isn’t saying much.

Quote:
Following the war, the Soviets villified Franco.

And rightly so.

Agreed, the communists will always vilify an enemy with courage, like Ronald Reagan for example.

Was Ronnie a fascist follower of Franco? I think not. So why bring him into this topic?

However, Franco became a member of NATO and a strong ally against the communists.

Spain didn’t join NATO until 1982, and Franco was under sod by 1975. He was no ally.
Spain joined NATO in 1982 because many eurosocialdemocrats did not wanted Franco in. He allowed the US to use military bases in Spain since the early 1960s including nuclear armed planes. Remember the incident in Torrejón when a H bomb was lost after a B-52 crash.

He had to curry favor because the US and British governments loathed him, and allowing the use of bases was his peace offering.

The Church was a symbol of wealth, repression, and inequality, and by allying itself with the dictator instead of with the common people, it reaped what it had sown. The Church there has no one to blame but itself.
The problem of the Spanish Church can not only be blamed on Franco

You are quite correct. The Spanish Church has only itself to blame for why its population rejected it. Why was the Polish church not rejected? Because it stood by the people, not by the governments that suppressed the people.

 

[krokal]

Fact: Franco led a coup d’etat and overthrew a legitimately elected government.

Fact: Franco supported the Nazis and the Italians in one way or another during WWII.

Fact: Franco was a brutal dictator that ruled Spain with an iron fist for 40 years and is responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent people.

I suppose next we’re going to say that Pinochet was an amazing and God-fearing leader who united Chile and cleansed her of sin, or that Isabella was completely justified in starting the Inquisition and purging Spain of Jews and Muslims.

Read a history book and realize Francisco Franco for the depraved despot that he was.

 

[Franze]

Franco was the better thing that happened in those times, he was a dictator, but he created the middle class that the liberalism and wild capitalism are destroying now Spain and other western countries.
The elections in 1936 where the Popular Front “won”, were very fraudulent, in addition in 1934 where the right was ruling the republic, the left tried to make a coup d´etat, and it costed more that 2 thousand lifes.
The luck of Spain was dark in those times, if the Popular Front had won and there wasn´t been war, we had been invaded by Hitler or something worst. And like the I WW, we were neutral, we only fought with communists in Blue Division in Russia.
And respect what Richardols said, well, it´s true that now catholicism is symbolic in Spain but I can´t defend the democracy that have killed more that one million of babies and created a lot of divorces.

 

[Richardols]

Franco was the better thing that happened in those times, he was a dictator, but he created the middle class that the liberalism and wild capitalism are destroying now Spain and other western countries.

And Mussolini was a dictator, but he got the railways to run on time, and Hitler was a dictator, but he built the autobahnen, and Stalin was a dictator, but he was instrumental in defeating the Nazis. I don’t think that dictatorships’ “good points” can ever outweigh the evil they bring.

The elections in 1936 where the Popular Front “won”, were very fraudulent, in addition in 1934 where the right was ruling the republic, the left tried to make a coup d´etat, and it costed more that 2 thousand lifes.
The luck of Spain was dark in those times, if the Popular Front had won and there wasn´t been war, we had been invaded by Hitler or something worst. And like the I WW, we were neutral, we only fought with communists in Blue Division in Russia.

The Blue Division did two things, both bad. Its presence on the Eastern Front freed the Germans to send the troops that the Spaniards replaced elsewhere to fight the allies; its fighting the Soviet Union meant that our ally had to use resources to fight the Blue Division instead of directing all its energy against Hitler.

And respect what Richardols said, well, it´s true that now catholicism is symbolic in Spain but I can´t defend the democracy that have killed more that one million of babies and created a lot of divorces.

I agree with you here, and repeat what I said before. It was the Church itself that brought misery to itself. Had the Church been for the common man rather than for the rich and powerful, Spain may have been more like Poland and Ireland religiously than like the secular state that it became.

 

[RomanCrusader]

Fact: Franco led a coup d’etat and overthrew a legitimately elected government.

Fact: Franco supported the Nazis and the Italians in one way or another during WWII.

Fact: Franco was a brutal dictator that ruled Spain with an iron fist for 40 years and is responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent people.

I suppose next we’re going to say that Pinochet was an amazing and God-fearing leader who united Chile and cleansed her of sin, or that Isabella was completely justified in starting the Inquisition and purging Spain of Jews and Muslims.

Read a history book and realize Francisco Franco for the depraved despot that he was.

FACT: Franco overthrew a murderous communist regime that was elected through fraud and intimidation.

FACT: Franco was neutral in WWII and Hitler despised him. Franco was symptahetic to the Axis in the fight against communism, but not in regards to the western front. Franco protected downed allied airmen and refugees from the Nazi regime.

FACT: Franco was a noble and wise leader of Spain who brought about economic growth, stability, security, and honor to the nation.

Vive Franco!

Pinochet had flaws, but the government he overthrew was even worse. Isabella is declared a Blessed by the Church and there are move to canonize her. She drove out those who had been wreaking terror on the Spanish Catholics for hundreds of years.

 

[RomanCrusader]

And Mussolini was a dictator, but he got the railways to run on time, and Hitler was a dictator, but he built the autobahnen, and Stalin was a dictator, but he was instrumental in defeating the Nazis. I don’t think that dictatorships’ “good points” can ever outweigh the evil they bring.

Irrelevent. Franco did not bring about any evil.

There is nothing inherently wrong with dictatorship. It has pros and cons, like democracy.

The Blue Division did two things, both bad. Its presence on the Eastern Front freed the Germans to send the troops that the Spaniards replaced elsewhere to fight the allies; its fighting the Soviet Union meant that our ally had to use resources to fight the Blue Division instead of directing all its energy against Hitler.

The men of the Blue Division were fighting communism. Their presence did not free the Germans up, as the Germans were already lacking manpower as it was. A few thousand Spaniards was a supplement to the German army in Russia, not a replacement. I highly doubt they caused veteran troops to be sent to the Western Front.

As for the USSR, it was a pretty lame ally. Just as bad as Nazi Germany if you ask me.

I agree with you here, and repeat what I said before. It was the Church itself that brought misery to itself. Had the Church been for the common man rather than for the rich and powerful, Spain may have been more like Poland and Ireland religiously than like the secular state that it became.

Maybe you just haven’t been listening. The “Popular Front” government MASSACRED 5000 Catholic clergymen, maybe even more. Why would the Church side with them then?

 

[inthecloud]

Well well, yes Franco was a dictator, yes he was a ally Adolf and Benito, yes he fought the Soviets. But I doubt Spain in that time had another alternative.
The Republic was elected in a Bush in Florida 00 like way. It was a constested election. The executions of priests and nuns and the burning of Churches started before Franco rebellion. Democracy is fine as long the democraticaly elected leaders act in respect of the rule of law. The Spanish Republic, just like Allende in Chile forfeited the rule of law for mob rule, they reaped what they sow. If a government does not respect the Laws, other eventualy others will also not respect the laws. Being elected democraticaly is no excuse.
And Franco dictatorship, like Pinochet opened the way for the creation of a middle class that broke with authoritarism and created a democracy with economic prosperity.

 

[krokal]

Roman Crusader,

What part about historical records showing that Franco was involved in the executions of thousands of people don’t you understand? He was not a good man, stop idolizing him.

FACT: Franco was a noble and wise leader of Spain who brought about economic growth, stability, security, and honor to the nation.

Worldly success does not equal spiritual success. He accomplished all that with the blood of his countrymen…that is no noble thing.

 

[RomanCrusader]

Roman Crusader,

What part about historical records showing that Franco was involved in the executions of thousands of people don’t you understand? He was not a good man, stop idolizing him.

He ordered the detention and execution of militant communists and some of his falangist troops got way out of hand. Franco’s intention was to bring about stability and peace.

You have to keep in mind that Spain was in dissaray and there were still communists and anarchist terrorists fighting against Franco in pockets here and there. Franco took drastic action in order to ensure that the communists and anarchists could never start another civil war in Spain.

I realize that post-civil war executions got out of hand, but I suspect it was the result of overactive falangists, not Francos orders.

 

[Richardols]

FACT: Franco was neutral in WWII and Hitler despised him.

So what? Hitler cooperated with him against our ally. That’s what’s important.

Franco was symptahetic to the Axis in the fight against communism, but not in regards to the western front.

Err…we were fighting World War II, and the Soviet Union was our ALLY. We were fighting not communism or fascism, but Germany.

Franco protected downed allied airmen and refugees from the Nazi regime.

How little you know. All neutrals have an obligation under the Geneva Conventions to intern belligerents, and not to return them to their enemies. Franco didn’t do any more than he was required to do by international treaty.

FACT: Franco was a noble and wise leader of Spain who brought about economic growth, stability, security, and honor to the nation.

Hahahahaha!

Vive Franco!

Huh? Long live a corpse that’s been dead for 32 years now? Sorry, but he ain’t gonna rise from the dead.

Pinochet had flaws, but the government he overthrew was even worse.

So, what were the flaws of the elected Allende government?

Isabella is declared a Blessed by the Church and there are move to canonize her.

God Forbid.

She drove out those who had been wreaking terror on the Spanish Catholics for hundreds of years.

Are you speaking of the Dominicans?

 

[bones_IV]

So what? Hitler cooperated with him against our ally. That’s what’s important.

Then why did he shelter Jews in his country? I would hardly call that being an ally w/ Hitler. Why didn’t the Allies execute him too?

Huh? Long live a corpse that’s been dead for 32 years now? Sorry, but he ain’t gonna rise from the dead.

So our souls will not be reunited w/ our bodies on the last day?

 

[Richardols]

Irrelevent. Franco did not bring about any evil.

Except suppress deny human rights, jail people left and right, and shoot some. That’s evil.

There is nothing inherently wrong with dictatorship. It has pros and cons, like democracy.

And a Communist totalitarianism also has its pros and cons. Yeah.

The men of the Blue Division were fighting communism.

I don’t care if they were fighting buddhism and animism. They were fighting an ally of ours, who for all its faults, was absolutely necessary for victory.

Their presence did not free the Germans up, as the Germans were already lacking manpower as it was. A few thousand Spaniards was a supplement to the German army in Russia, not a replacement. I highly doubt they caused veteran troops to be sent to the Western Front.

Even if not, they caused injury to our ally, and any Russian soldiers killed by them was one less soldier available to fight the Germans.

As for the USSR, it was a pretty lame ally. Just as bad as Nazi Germany if you ask me.

Russia won the war for the allies. The Germans had more soldiers killed and lost more battles on the Eastern Front than in any other theater of war (a verifiable fact). The Red Army broke the back of the German Army, allowing us to fight a much weakened bunch of Germans in the West.

Maybe you just haven’t been listening. The “Popular Front” government MASSACRED 5000 Catholic clergymen, maybe even more. Why would the Church side with them then?

The Catholic Church is Spain has **always **sided with the nobility and the rich and the privileged. They should have done as Christ would have done - sided with the poor. Compare them with the Church in Ireland or Poland.

 

[Richardols]

Then why did he shelter Jews in his country? I would hardly call that being an ally w/ Hitler. Why didn’t the Allies execute him too?

No, that’s called a humanitarian gesture. Even the Italians, a full ally of the Germans, used ruses to protect many Jews from the death camps.

Franco was a belligerant neutral, not a full belligerent.

 

[bones_IV]

Except suppress deny human rights, jail people left and right, and shoot some. That’s evil.

And a Communist totalitarianism also has its pros and cons. Yeah.

But cons outweigh the pros don’t they?

I don’t care if they were fighting buddhism and animism. They were fighting an ally of ours, who for all its faults, was absolutely necessary for victory.

Using your logic we should let the whole world burn.

Russia won the war for the allies. The Germans had more soldiers killed and lost more battles on the Eastern Front than in any other theater of war (a verifiable fact). The Red Army broke the back of the German Army, allowing us to fight a much weakened bunch of Germans in the West.

:ehh::dts: If I recall correctly America was fighting the war on two fronts. How do you answer that? Russia had done it’s own purging in their military. Not to mention severly weakened.

The Catholic Church is Spain has **always **sided with the nobility and the rich and the privileged. They should have done as Christ would have done - sided with the poor. Compare them with the Church in Ireland or Poland.

meh.

 

[bones_IV]

No, that’s called a humanitarian gesture. Even the Italians, a full ally of the Germans, used ruses to protect many Jews from the death camps…

Is that right? Do enlighten.

 

[Richardols]

So our souls will not be reunited w/ our bodies on the last day?

Are you serious? When someone says, “Long live…!” be it Franco or Stalin or George Bush or whomever, they’re not speaking of the resurrection of the dead.

 

[Richardols]

Is that right? Do enlighten.

Go look it up to see what Italy did to protect at least some of their Jews.

 

[Richardols]

Using your logic we should let the whole world burn.

Your statement makes no sense.

:ehh::dts: If I recall correctly America was fighting the war on two fronts. How do you answer that? Russia had done it’s own purging in their military. Not to mention severly weakened.

Well, you recall incorrectly. We did **not **fight the Germans on the Eastern Front except by supplying the Red Army through Murmansk; the western allies fought only in the West. Open up a history book, man!

The USSR was an absolutely necessary ally. It has been said that the Red Army won the war in Europe and the US Navy won the war in the Pacific. That’s not that far off.

 

[bones_IV]

Go look it up to see what Italy did to protect at least some of their Jews.

Let’s see…Ronald Rychlak says,

p. 152-153 "Hitler, the War, and the Pope.

"In September 1940, Hitler traveled to the French town of Hendaye to meet with Spanish leader, General Francisco Franco. Hilter wanted Spain to enter the war, and he offered Franco arms, raw materials, and colonies. Spain, however, had not yet recovered from it’s civil war; it did not need a new foreign one. Besides, Franco’s revolution had been against Communism. How could he now side with Hitler, who was cooperating (and soon would be allied) with the Soviet Union? Hitler did not give up that easily, but Franco and his “Jesuit swine” foreign minister. (Later in the war, Franco opened up Spain’s border to Jews who were fleeing Nazi persecution. Pope Pius XII was able to help thousands reach safety in Spain.).

 

[bones_IV]

Your statement makes no sense.

Well, you recall incorrectly. We did **not **fight the Germans on the Eastern Front except by supplying the Red Army through Murmansk; the western allies fought only in the West. Open up a history book, man!

And if it weren’t for the United States entering the War the allies would have lost.