First Presidential Debate 9/26/16 Thread

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exnihilo said:
Fair enough as far as the legitimacy of the question. But people questioned the eligibility of John McCain, Cruz, and Rubio. McCain is certainly White. Questioning the legitimacy of a politician is politics. Obama has a foreign sounding name, his father was undeniably a foreigner with no intention to stay in the US, he lived outside the US for many of his formative years, and he had no long term roots in Hawaii. The fact the he is mixed race adds nothing to the legitimate concern about whether he was born in the US. Had he been a mixed race man from Aiken South Carolina whose parents and grandparents were also from there no one would have been concerned with his legitimacy.
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Should we also question Trump since his mother was born in Scotland?
 
Ridgerunner said:
Huh? The left likes to question Melania Trump’s legality, and she’s white.
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That was in reaction to the shameful birther crusade the right went on against Obama for 8 years. I don’t condone it, but it was a reaction.
 
Expatreprocedit said:
Asking Trump about his “birther” crusade was legitimate. It has to do with Trump’s judgment and credibility. And it has everything to do with race. A white president would not have been suspected of being born outside the US, even after he produced his birth certificate. For many white Americans still, nonwhite= foreign, nonAmerican.
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That is a racist statement.

McCain’s eligibility was questioned and he was asked to provide his birth certificate.

washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/01/AR2008050103224.html
 
exnihilo said:
Exactly what is Trump accused of doing that is unethical in business? Was it declaring bankruptcy which is a perfectly legal thing to do?
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Yes. Everyone knows that it is possible to abuse the bankruptcy laws in a totally legal manner, and still not have a very good smell about it. I once was owed $9000 by a company that put me off month after month, and eventually declared bankruptcy. I got $340 in the process, and the company continued to operated in the very same location with all the same employees and the very same assets, doing business just as before. They lost nothing. All they did was dump all their debt. And it was completely legal.
Or was the unethical action the claim made by Clinton that he didn’t pay workers? I don’t know the substance of the claim. But Trump seemed to rebut this by suggesting the reason a person wasn’t paid is because they didn’t do the job they were hired for. That is certainly a reasonable claim and is perfectly ethical.
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The sheer number of contractors who were stiffed makes that claim hard to swallow, as well as hard to verify. A convenient duck.
exnihilo said:
Obama has a foreign sounding name, his father was undeniably a foreigner with no intention to stay in the US, he lived outside the US for many of his formative years, and he had no long term roots in Hawaii. The fact the he is mixed race adds nothing to the legitimate concern about whether he was born in the US. Had he been a mixed race man from Aiken South Carolina whose parents and grandparents were also from there no one would have been concerned with his legitimacy.
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That may have been reason for investigating in 2008, but after the issue has been resolved, what is the point of continuing to raise doubts, year after year? When questioned about the birther issue, Trump said he got Obama to produce the birth certificate, and that now satisfies him. But he ducked the question of why he continued to question Obama’s citizenship right up until this year, and then suddenly - for no apparent reason other than political expediency - say he is satisfied by Obama’s citizenship.
 
What is Mr. Trump’s impression of the debate?
[Donald Trump’s] first target was NBC News’ Lester Holt, the moderator of Monday night’s debate. Just hours before, Trump had praised Holt in the spin room to CNN, saying the newscaster had done a “great job” and was “very fair.”
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Those compliments were long gone.
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“I had some hostile questions,” Trump said on Fox News. “He didn’t ask her about the emails at all. He didn’t ask her about her scandals. He didn’t ask her about the Benghazi deal that she destroyed. He didn’t ask her about a lot of things she should have been asked about. There’s no question about it.”
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Trump was still irritated – and even conspiratorial – about his microphone.
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“My microphone was terrible,” Trump complained. “I wonder: was it set up that way on purpose?”
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To top things off, Trump unloaded on former Miss Universe Alicia Machado, who has alleged that the businessman’s disparaging treatment of her had led to eating disorders and depression.
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With no apparent consideration for the political recklessness of his crude comments, Trump once again went after Machado’s physical appearance, bringing her up on his own.
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“That person was a Miss Universe person, and she was the worst we ever had. The worst. The absolute worst,” Trump said. “She gained a massive amount of weight and it was a real problem. We had a real problem.”
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cnn.com/2016/09/27/politics/hillary-clinton-donald-trump-debate-reaction/index.html

Yes, it was Lester Holt’s fault or the microphone’s fault and Ms. Machado really was fat and the worst Miss Universe contestant ever…:rolleyes:
 
Irishmom2 said:
You mean the scientific poll that CNN acknowledges had a bit higher number of democrats participating in? :rolleyes: and what was the reason for that?

All polls, even so called “scientific” ones have their own kind of bias built in.
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When you get trounced 62-27, I don’t think a bit more Democrats watching made all that much difference. And there have already been others who beat me to it explaining the differences between scientific and unscientific and online polls.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
Yes. Everyone knows that it is possible to abuse the bankruptcy laws in a totally legal manner, and still not have a very good smell about it. I once was owed $9000 by a company that put me off month after month, and eventually declared bankruptcy. I got $340 in the process, and the company continued to operated in the very same location with all the same employees and the very same assets, doing business just as before. They lost nothing. All they did was dump all their debt. And it was completely legal.
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Anecdotal, of course, inapplicable to any case Trump was in.

But you’re factually wrong in one thing. The “Absolute Priority Rule” requires total impairment of the equity before any creditor is impaired. That is, unless the creditor is impaired for some other reason such as fraud, incomplete or incompetent performance, offset, failure to properly file or things of that nature. The owners either proceeded with no equity at all, negative equity approved by the major creditors, or a “white knight” came in to save their bacon with just enough cash to keep the company in operation. In such cases, the “white knight” will often not come in unless the overall debt is reduced by the court. And the “white knight” is an outsider who then owns all or part of the company in exchange for his contribution.

Bankruptcy courts are ordinarily reluctant to impair creditors unless there is absolutely no way to save the company without it. One needs to remember that there are also employees in those companies who would lose their jobs if the company is allowed to just collapse. Any impairment of a creditor has to equal the maximum amount the creditor would receive if the company was liquidated entirely, with all assets sold and loss of all jobs.
 
sallybutler said:
McCain WAS born in a different country. Panama is not and was not part of the the US.

He is considered a natural citizen (as opposed to a naturalized citizen) for other legal reasons than place of birth.
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Correct and he should have been questioned. It is racist that Expatrepocedit claimed that a race of people tend to think nonwhites are foreigners.
Expatreprocedit said:
Asking Trump about his “birther” crusade was legitimate. It has to do with Trump’s judgment and credibility. And it has everything to do with race. A white president would not have been suspected of being born outside the US, even after he produced his birth certificate. For many white Americans still, nonwhite= foreign, nonAmerican.
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How long did it take John McCain to produce his birth certificate? How long did it take Obama? I’m not going to question Obama’s motives, but a lot of drama could have been avoided had Obama produced his in a more timely fashion.
 
ProVobis said:
Are you kidding?..

If I may add one thing to this: it is one thing to get away with unethical business practices, it is something else to brag about it. Even Warren Buffet mentioned this to him: “Have you no shame?”
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What is the claim? I’m not going to read a bunch of articles. It seems from a few titles the claim is he had some business failures. I’m not sure what is unethical about that. Anyone who actually does business has failures.

The globalist Warren Buffet has no shame. He complains he doesn’t pay enough taxes. Well nothing is stoping him from writing a check to the government if he thinks that is the best use of his money.
sallybutler said:
Should we also question Trump since his mother was born in Scotland?
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Absolutely. You should question every politician. I think in Trumps case the evidence is very strong he was born here and lived and worked here his entire life. His history is easy to discover which is in contrast to Obama who has also played up his Kenyan and Indonesian background.
LeafByNiggle said:
Yes. Everyone knows that it is possible to abuse the bankruptcy laws in a totally legal manner, and still not have a very good smell about it. I once was owed $9000 by a company that put me off month after month, and eventually declared bankruptcy. I got $340 in the process, and the company continued to operated in the very same location with all the same employees and the very same assets, doing business just as before. They lost nothing. All they did was dump all their debt. And it was completely legal.
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That isn’t abusing the laws. That is using them. The whole point of bankruptcy laws is to allow a business to get away with not paying its debt. The whole point is to keep established business in business. I personally disagree with bankruptcy laws. But I disagree even more strongly with Clinton condemning Trump when she gave Wall Street almost a trillion dollars of tax payer money to avoid it.
LeafByNiggle said:
The sheer number of contractors who were stiffed makes that claim hard to swallow, as well as hard to verify. A convenient duck.
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What is that number? Trump is involved in a lot of businesses. I’m sure over time there have been plenty of disagreements.
LeafByNiggle said:
That may have been reason for investigating in 2008, but after the issue has been resolved, what is the point of continuing to raise doubts, year after year? When questioned about the birther issue, Trump said he got Obama to produce the birth certificate, and that now satisfies him. But he ducked the question of why he continued to question Obama’s citizenship right up until this year, and then suddenly - for no apparent reason other than political expediency - say he is satisfied by Obama’s citizenship.
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I think it was political expediency that caused him to drop the issue. That is the same motivation that caused Clinton to change her positions. The biased moderator just didn’t bring any of those issues up as a question.
 
Expatreprocedit said:
Asking Trump about his “birther” crusade was legitimate. It has to do with Trump’s judgment and credibility. And it has everything to do with race. A white president would not have been suspected of being born outside the US, even after he produced his birth certificate. For many white Americans still, nonwhite= foreign, nonAmerican.

At least as damaging to Trump was his poor response to the question, which he should have known was coming.
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I’m tired of people acting like there’s nothing to see here. The birth certificate was obviously changed since Lolo Soetoro is not his father, and released 3 YEARS after the election. He could have discussed the meanings of Obama’s salacious college poetry, whether the identity of Pop was Frank Marshall Davis as his real father (who Obama mentions in his book Dreams of My Father), instead of Obama Sr., or merely a role model from Hawaii at the time.

Then there’s also the issue of college scholarship as a foreigner. Indonesia didn’t have dual citizenship at the time, so if he rescinded his US citizenship and applied to college as a foreigner, he’s no longer a natural born citizen and no longer eligible under the 14th Amendment. Or, if he applied to college on scholarship as a foreigner as a US citizen, that’s fraud. Such a lack of vetting.

Then there’s how Obama’s grandmother died suddenly and mysteriously one day before the election. She could have cleared much of this up for us.

Trump is not permited to discuss these issues. The media kept them secret from us, so we must remain silent, because they say so. It’s their election, not ours. Nothing to see here, just move along…
 
7_Sorrows said:
I couldn’t figure out why she chose red. It wasn’t very flattering. She was like a red bull.
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And Trump wore a blue tie instead of his traditional red one, perhaps to tone down his aggressiveness. Funny too that blue is associated with Democrats and red with Republicans.

Maybe for the next debate Trump will wear a red dress and Hillary a suit with a blue tie. Why not make a statement? And role reversal is fashionable nowadays.
 
I’m at a conference this week with a cross-section of America represented. An informal poll was conducted and the participants said that Trump won the debate overwhelmingly. That surprised me a little since I thought Trump lost the debate, but close. Nonetheless, that’s what manufacturing software users think it went.
 
meltzerboy said:
And Trump wore a blue tie instead of his traditional red one, perhaps to tone down his aggressiveness. Funny too that blue is associated with Democrats and red with Republicans.

Maybe for the next debate Trump will wear a red dress and Hillary a suit with a blue tie. Why not make a statement? And role reversal is fashionable nowadays.
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:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:
 
ManOnFire said:
I’m tired of people acting like there’s nothing to see here. The birth certificate was obviously changed since Lolo Soetoro is not his father, and released 3 YEARS after the election. He could have discussed the meanings of Obama’s salacious college poetry, whether the identity of Pop was Frank Marshall Davis as his real father (who Obama mentions in his book Dreams of My Father), instead of Obama Sr., or merely a role model from Hawaii at the time.

Then there’s also the issue of college scholarship as a foreigner. Indonesia didn’t have dual citizenship at the time, so if he rescinded his US citizenship and applied to college as a foreigner, he’s no longer a natural born citizen and no longer eligible under the 14th Amendment. Or, if he applied to college on scholarship as a foreigner as a US citizen, that’s fraud. Such a lack of vetting.

Then there’s how Obama’s grandmother died suddenly and mysteriously one day before the election. She could have cleared much of this up for us.

Trump is not permited to discuss these issues. The media kept them secret from us, so we must remain silent, because they say so. It’s their election, not ours. Nothing to see here, just move along…
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I don’t understand what you’re talking about when you say, “The birth certificate was obviously changed since Lolo Soetoro is not his father.” What does Lolo Soetoro have to do with Obama’s birth certificate? A photo of his long form birth certificate is available online which says that his father was “Barak Hussein Obama,” that he was born in Honolulu and that the information on the birth certificate was accepted for registration by the state of Hawaii on 8 August 1961.

whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/rss_viewer/birth-certificate-long-form.pdf

The claim that Obama received college financial aid in the U.S. as a “foreign student from Indonesia” has been investigated by Snopes.com and was found to be false:

snopes.com/politics/obama/birthers/occidental.asp
 
Stylteralmaldo said:
I’m at a conference this week with a cross-section of America represented. An informal poll was conducted and the participants said that Trump won the debate overwhelmingly. That surprised me a little since I thought Trump lost the debate, but close. Nonetheless, that’s what manufacturing software users think it went.
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Thanks for sharing. Someone here said the poll was manipulated. I am glad to hear what you said. I don’t think anyone in your conference was faking or manipulating.😃
 
Al_Moritz said:
Yes, and the Drudge Report poll with Trump winning by 80%/20% is probably 90 % conservatives.
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Probably? That’s a pretty definitive adjective!

Who cares, the winner of these things is ultimately who benefits in the election polls. If Trump wins a majority of debate polls but falls behind Clinton in the popular vote, I’d say she won.
 
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