Five Non-Negotiable Positions Ignore Crimes against Humanity

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JakeW,
**
Sorry, no. If you weren’t so blinded by YOUR ideology you would see that we didn’t, after 9/11, have much choice: Decide that Saddam is telling us the truth (HA!) and have it turn out that we were wrong (another 9/11)??? What would you have said about Bush then?? You would have been unglued at “his incompetence”, his “miscalculations”, his “weakness” in the face of a pathological lying killer, and demand that he be removed from office. See, NO MATTER WHAT Bush does you will accuse him of being incompetant, regardless.
**

It’s curious that a Christian can be so eager to go to war without first reflecting on its horrors. It’s alarming how a Christian can rush to accept a patently false rationale for going to war, knowing that inevitable death and destruction are the results of war.

Then again, Christians throughout the ages supported wars and crusades, invasions of other lands, massacred non-Christians (or, in our case, non-Catholics), executed heretics and non-believers, without justification, and somehow always reconcile their hate with their religious beliefs.

Irrelevant are the imaginary arguments you envision I would make in your “what if” fantasy.
 
Uracan said:
JakeW,

It’s curious that a Christian can be so eager to go to war without first reflecting on its horrors. It’s alarming how a Christian can rush to accept a patently false rationale for going to war, knowing that inevitable death and destruction are the results of war.

Then again, Christians throughout the ages supported wars and crusades, invasions of other lands, massacred non-Christians (or, in our case, non-Catholics), executed heretics and non-believers, without justification, and somehow always reconcile their hate with their religious beliefs.

Irrelevant are the imaginary arguments you envision I would make in your “what if” fantasy.

Why do you assume every war is fought out of hate? I would brush up on legitimate defense if I were you.

CCC

Legitimate defense

[2263](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/2263.htm’)😉
The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. "The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one’s own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not."65

[2264](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/2264.htm’)😉 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one’s own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:

If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one’s own life than of another’s.66 [2265](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/2265.htm’)😉 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.

[2266](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/2266.htm’)😉 The efforts of the state to curb the spread of behavior harmful to people’s rights and to the basic rules of civil society correspond to the requirement of safeguarding the common good. Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict punishment proportionate to the gravity of the offense. Punishment has the primary aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense. When it is willingly accepted by the guilty party, it assumes the value of expiation. Punishment then, in addition to defending public order and protecting people’s safety, has a medicinal purpose: as far as possible, it must contribute to the correction of the guilty party.67

[2267](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/2267.htm’)😉 Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent."68
 
III. SAFEGUARDING PEACE

Peace

[2302](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/2302.htm’)😉
By recalling the commandment, "You shall not kill,"94 our Lord asked for peace of heart and denounced murderous anger and hatred as immoral.

*Anger *is a desire for revenge. “To desire vengeance in order to do evil to someone who should be punished is illicit,” but it is praiseworthy to impose restitution "to correct vices and maintain justice."95 If anger reaches the point of a deliberate desire to kill or seriously wound a neighbor, it is gravely against charity; it is a mortal sin. The Lord says, "Everyone who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment."96

[2303](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/2303.htm’)😉 Deliberate *hatred *is contrary to charity. Hatred of the neighbor is a sin when one deliberately wishes him evil. Hatred of the neighbor is a grave sin when one deliberately desires him grave harm. "But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven."97

[2304](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/2304.htm’)😉 Respect for and development of human life require peace. Peace is not merely the absence of war, and it is not limited to maintaining a balance of powers between adversaries. Peace cannot be attained on earth without safeguarding the goods of persons, free communication among men, respect for the dignity of persons and peoples, and the assiduous practice of fraternity. Peace is "the tranquillity of order."98 Peace is the work of justice and the effect of charity.99

[2305](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/2305.htm’)😉 Earthly peace is the image and fruit of the peace of Christ, the messianic "Prince of Peace."100 By the blood of his Cross, "in his own person he killed the hostility,"101 he reconciled men with God and made his Church the sacrament of the unity of the human race and of its union with God. "He is our peace."102 He has declared: "Blessed are the peacemakers."103

[2306](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/2306.htm’)😉 Those who renounce violence and bloodshed and, in order to safeguard human rights, make use of those means of defense available to the weakest, bear witness to evangelical charity, provided they do so without harming the rights and obligations of other men and societies. They bear legitimate witness to the gravity of the physical and moral risks of recourse to violence, with all its destruction and death.104
 
Avoiding war

2307
The fifth commandment forbids the intentional destruction of human life. Because of the evils and injustices that accompany all war, the Church insistently urges everyone to prayer and to action so that the divine Goodness may free us from the ancient bondage of war.105

2308 All citizens and all governments are obliged to work for the avoidance of war.

However, "as long as the danger of war persists and there is no international authority with the necessary competence and power, governments cannot be denied the right of lawful self-defense, once all peace efforts have failed."106

2309 The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:
  • the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
  • all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
  • there must be serious prospects of success;
  • the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.
These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the “just war” doctrine.

The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.

2310 Public authorities, in this case, have the right and duty to impose on citizens the obligations necessary for national defense.

Those who are sworn to serve their country in the armed forces are servants of the security and freedom of nations. If they carry out their duty honorably, they truly contribute to the common good of the nation and the maintenance of peace.107

2311 Public authorities should make equitable provision for those who for reasons of conscience refuse to bear arms; these are nonetheless obliged to serve the human community in some other way.108

2312 The Church and human reason both assert the permanent validity of the moral law during armed conflict. "The mere fact that war has regrettably broken out does not mean that everything becomes licit between the warring parties."109

2313 Non-combatants, wounded soldiers, and prisoners must be respected and treated humanely.

Actions deliberately contrary to the law of nations and to its universal principles are crimes, as are the orders that command such actions. Blind obedience does not suffice to excuse those who carry them out. Thus the extermination of a people, nation, or ethnic minority must be condemned as a mortal sin. One is morally bound to resist orders that command genocide.
 
2314 "Every act of war directed to the indiscriminate destruction of whole cities or vast areas with their inhabitants is a crime against God and man, which merits firm and unequivocal condemnation."110 A danger of modern warfare is that it provides the opportunity to those who possess modern scientific weapons especially atomic, biological, or chemical weapons - to commit such crimes.

2315 The accumulation of arms strikes many as a paradoxically suitable way of deterring potential adversaries from war. They see it as the most effective means of ensuring peace among nations. This method of deterrence gives rise to strong moral reservations. The arms race does not ensure peace. Far from eliminating the causes of war, it risks aggravating them. Spending enormous sums to produce ever new types of weapons impedes efforts to aid needy populations;111 it thwarts the development of peoples. Over-armament multiplies reasons for conflict and increases the danger of escalation.

2316 The production and the sale of arms affect the common good of nations and of the international community. Hence public authorities have the right and duty to regulate them. The short-term pursuit of private or collective interests cannot legitimate undertakings that promote violence and conflict among nations and compromise the international juridical order.

2317 Injustice, excessive economic or social inequalities, envy, distrust, and pride raging among men and nations constantly threaten peace and cause wars. Everything done to overcome these disorders contributes to building up peace and avoiding war:

Insofar as men are sinners, the threat of war hangs over them and will so continue until Christ comes again; but insofar as they can vanquish sin by coming together in charity, violence itself will be vanquished and these words will be fulfilled: "they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."112
 
Uracan, you need to recant the slander of the Pope.:mad:
“I don’t know that Hitler necessarily had a profound hatred of the Catholic Church. My guess is that didn’t give a damn about the church except to the extent that the church would not interfere with his crimes, and of course, that’s just what Pope Pious did—not interfere with Hitler. However, as the leader of the Catholic Church he should have taken a strong and unequivocal stand against Hitler. He did not and instead entered into an agreement with Hitler that allowed Hitler to proceed with his ambitions.”:mad:
 
Why do you assume every war is fought out of hate? I would brush up on legitimate defense if I were you.
Buffalo, you’re hopelessly confusing gobbledigook with Christianity. In this illegal war 100,000 men, women, and children have died because of our lust for oil and empire. There are all sorts of suckers out there who didn’t even bother to eveluate the bogus evidence and bought into the propaganda.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0713-01.htm
 
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Lisa4Catholics:
Uracan, you need to recant the slander of the Pope.
Although he claims to be Catholic, I’m hard pressed to see any Catholicism in what he writes.

The fundamental lack of knowledge about Rome’s role in WW2 (or Catholicism, for that matter) does not stop him from throwing wild and unsupportable charges around. He doesn’t see it as slander. Your better off reporting him and letting the mods take care of it.
 
Uracan here:(

Dr. Nahum Goldmann, president of the World Jewish Congress, wrote in his letter of condolence on Pope Pius’ death: “With special gratitude we remember all he has done for the persecuted Jews during one of the darkest periods in their entire history.” In 1945, the Congress had made a gift of $20,000 to Vatican charities in recognition of the work of the Holy See in rescuing Jews from Fascist persecution; and an interoffice memorandum, written a year earlier by a WJC official closely involved in the Congress’ pleas to Pius XII for help for the Jews of Poland, reads: "The Catholic Church in Europe has been extraordinarily helpful to us in a multitude of ways. From Hinsley in London to Pacelli in Rome, to say nothing of the anonymous priests in Holland, France, and elsewhere, they have done very notable things for us
 
Where the slander started:mad:

Scott Waddell http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/statusicon_cad/user_offline.gif vbmenu_register(“postmenu_506495”, true);
Senior Member
Join Date: May 18, 2004
Posts: 894

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon1.gif Re: Answering Uracan’s allegation against Pope Pious
And while we are at it here is a review from a (as far as I know) non-Catholic for the movie adaptation of the 1964 play The Deputy which is the original source for much of this calumny: Amen (Der Stellvertreter)

Quote:
A criminal lunatic takes a family hostage and begins murdering them one by one. As the police close in, a kindly neighbor creeps into the house under the kidnapper’s gun and manages to spirit two of the family’s children out and to safety. After the siege is over and the killer and the rest of the family are all dead, a former associate of the perp in one of his criminal enterprises comes forward with a stinging indictment of — the kindly neighbor! Instead of quietly saving those two lives, this person says, the neighbor should have become a moral popinjay, preening himself and making a public parade of his firm disapproval of murder and kidnapping, so incurring, if possible, a pointless martyrdom. Not to have done so amounted to complicity in the crime.

If this argument makes sense to you, you are probably Rolf Hochhuth, the former Hitler Youth whose play, The Deputy (Der Stellvertreter), was the sensation of Broadway in 1964 when it made much the same argument about Pope Pius XII and the Holocaust. In the intervening decades, this bit of anti-Catholic mythology has been lovingly tended and nurtured by the likes of Garry Wills, John Cornwell and Daniel Goldhagen, but Costa-Gavras, that reliable propagandist for every fashionable left-wing cause, and his co-scenarist, Jean-Claude Grumberg, have gone back to Hochhuth’s play for the foundation of their new film, Amen.

 
Now back to the non-negotiables.If you are aborted the other things you mentioned uracan are null and void, Because you will not be alive if your aborted,embryonic stem cells are using humans as commodities,which is a total degredation of the dignaty that God gave us.Cloning is just sick,and a giant act of pride:nope: Gay marriage is totally against the law of God and further demeans the sanctity of marriage and a mockery of the family.Uracan if we did more “violence” against are tendancy to do evil and will to do Gods will instead of our own these other things wouldn’t happen.God Bless
 
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Uracan:
Buffalo, you’re hopelessly confusing gobbledigook with Christianity. In this illegal war 100,000 men, women, and children have died because of our lust for oil and empire. There are all sorts of suckers out there who didn’t even bother to eveluate the bogus evidence and bought into the propaganda.

[commondreams.org/headlines03/0713-01.htm](http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0713-01.htm)
Oh yeah, gotta love a site that’s two years old, cites no sources for their evidence, and has a link to moveon.org at the top. :rolleyes: So, your link has credibility AND conflict-of-interest problems. 😃 But good luck finding a credible link to support your outlandish claims, anyway.

Even more confounding is what any of this has to do with the nonnegotiables, or the arguments we’ve made regarding them.
 
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sweetchuck:
Oh yeah, gotta love a site that’s two years old, cites no sources for their evidence, and has a link to moveon.org at the top. :rolleyes: So, your link has credibility AND conflict-of-interest problems. 😃 But good luck finding a credible link to support your outlandish claims, anyway.

Even more confounding is what any of this has to do with the nonnegotiables, or the arguments we’ve made regarding them.
We’re dealing with a guy who hates America and hates Catholics. Logic and facts are irrelevant to him.
 
We’re dealing with a guy who hates America and hates Catholics. Logic and facts are irrelevant to him.
I don’t hate Americans and I don’t hate Catholics. In fact, I think that the majority of Americans and Catholics share my views. I believe the opinions on this website express an extreme right-wing ideology and do not reflect the those of most Catholics I know.
 
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Uracan:
Buffalo, you’re hopelessly confusing gobbledigook with Christianity. In this illegal war 100,000 men, women, and children have died because of our lust for oil and empire. There are all sorts of suckers out there who didn’t even bother to eveluate the bogus evidence and bought into the propaganda.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0713-01.htm
The evidence for the justification of the war has been discussed exhaustively on these forums. You are jumping in way late.

Some of us “radical right-wingers” are happy that Iraq does not have to live under a tyrant that killed a staggering number of his own people and tortured an even greater number.

As far as your oil and empire conspiracy theory goes, that is where there is zero evidence - a pipedream of those that want to hate Bush.
 
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Uracan:
I don’t hate Americans and I don’t hate Catholics. In fact, I think that the majority of Americans and Catholics share my views. I believe the opinions on this website express an extreme right-wing ideology and do not reflect the those of most Catholics I know.
Ah, the delusion that most people share your line of thinking, what a powerful narcotic.

No, Uracan, Caribbean god of evil, you are flat out wrong.
 
Perhaps our Voter’s Guide poo-pooers are under the mistaken notion that it suggests that a Catholic MUST vote for Bush. That is not right. A Catholic could reasonably decide that he could not in good conscience vote for Bush. Fine, but he could not vote for Kerry as an alternative, as he supports policies that are Catholics are bound to oppose. So if he thought the Iraq war is immoral, he must not vote for Bush as it is subjectively binding, but he may not vote for Kerry as the wrongness of abortion is objectively binding. The so-called “proportional reasons” canard would only apply if both were involved in objective wrongdoings.

Scott
 
The certain judgment of one’s conscience, whether that judgment be objectively right or not or having been objectively properly formed or not, must always be obeyed. From the Catechism:

1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

So even if the conscience remains in ignorance or makes erroneous judgments its certain judgment must still always be obeyed; to disobey it would be to condemn one’s self.

So katherine was right on that particular point, if I understood what she was saying correctly.

I’ve never heard of this focus group allegation or the allegation that Catholic Answers is owned by another organization. I hope katherine has evidence for these allegations because otherwise I think it would be wrong to make them and unfairly tarnish Catholic Answers.
 
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