Following Church teaching on homosexuality leads to collateral sin?

[Kolbe300]

OK, I’ve been avoiding the comparison of homosexuality and pedophilia, because I don’t believe that there is a cause-effect, and because the OP isn’t a pedophile…and please don’t get the idea that I claim that he is or that he has any such tendencies. However, you made the general statement, ‘A person’s sexuality is nobody’s business, period’. Is a pedophile’s sexuality “nobody’s business”?

I, for one, appreciate your avoidance of that particular comparison. If a pedophile is not and has not acted out towards children, then yes, that person’s sexuality is nobody’s business. We all would probably like it to be our business, but it isn’t. Unfortunately, a large reason why the Church is dealing with the current crisis is because leadership decided that a pedophile who IS acting out is nobody’s business. In those cases, it’s EVERYONE’S business.

What if there are parents who would have a hissy-fit over having a homosexual person (or a person with a SSA, take your pick of the terms) involved in the youth ministry? We don’t even have to ask that question, we know there are such parents in EVERY parish.

OK, fairly or unfairly, they are out there and they think this way, agreed?

I do agree, there are parents out there who think this way. You repeat the phrase, “fairly or unfairly” a number of times. Which is it? Is it fair or unfair? Is it fair when parents throw a hissy-fit over someone living and teaching the Catholic faith, someone who happens to be SSA?

So what happens if the word gets out and the superior (pastor, deacon, DRE, whomever) first finds out when he or she has to deal with a set of parents who go ballistic? Why weren’t we told about this, they’ll ask. What happens when those parents call the diocese and raise holy you-know-what with the bishop? What happens if the parents are so motivated to contact the local paper or TV or radio, all of which are salivating over a chance to skewer the Church over something like this?

My question is this: What is the real problem here? Is the problem a chaste, homosexual person who lives and teaches the Catholic faith, or is the problem the parents who go ballistic over someone who is living and teaching the Catholic faith, simply because they are homosexual? Is it fair or unfair? Should I have to run away from youth ministry, even though that may be an area where I can have a wonderful impact, simply because of clueless parents? My pastor sure doesn’t think so, and I don’t either.

Fairly or unfairly, people will think certain things about chaste homosexual/SSA people in certain ministries, and there will always, fairly or not be a perception that such people in certain ministries amounts a tacit approval of the behavior which, of course, they are not engaging in but in some people’s minds are likely to…and they don’t want their kids anywhere around someone like that.

So rather than making an effort to educate parents, people like the OP and myself should just stay away from kids? I don’t know if you view this as fair or unfair, I really don’t. I do wonder, however, if you can see how this train of thought could be maddening to someone in my situation? If parents from my parish want to go raise “you-know-what” with the Bishop, I welcome it. And I’d love to know what their charge against me would be. It truly has nothing to do with “fair or unfair”, but rather, with “right and wrong.”

 

[Teteli]

To all those who would condemn “homosexuals” …or lesbians or bisexuals or polysexuals
or transgenders, i.e., ANYONE with a different sex drive:
I would ask;

• Does “God” make mistakes ?
• If “God” created this person, did “God” screw up ?
• Does “God” have a plan ?
• If “God” created this person, then doesn’t it seem logical that, whatever sex drive this
  person is saddled with, was part of “God,s” plan ?
• If the creation of this person was part of “God,s” plan, who among us has the right to
  condemn them ?

The problem with that argument is that there are some messed up people out there. For instance: a lot of psychologists claim that sociopaths can be identified at a very young age. That’s a psychological condition that doesn’t just spring up as a result of some trauma; these are people who are (if you’ll permit me a wee bit of sensationalism) born without a conscience. While not all sociopaths are psychopaths, some pretty horrific crimes have been committed by people who don’t consider hurting other people to be wrong.

This is absolutely not to imply that homosexuals are sociopaths! But the questions you asked can also be asked in this case too. What’s God’s plan in a situation like that? Why would He create a person without empathy? If you believe in God, you probably already have answers to those questions. And you likely believe that God’s plan involves these individuals learning to live a good life despite this psychological handicap, rather than acting on their darker impulses.

If you already believe, as many Christians do, that homosexual behavior is abhorrent in God’s eyes, then the same thing applies. Their attraction to the same sex is a cross to bear, a temptation to be resisted, in order to live the way God wants. Just like any other desire to do something sinful.

It’s not that I don’t agree with your base point - I do! But if you’re going to argue about homosexuality with religious people, you need stronger arguments.

 

[Teteli]

Also, just want to say: Kolbe300, you’re awesome. I fully agree that you shouldn’t let the fear of ignorant people’s reactions force your decisions. Whether you’re talking about the church or other areas, that’s just a general guideline. Otherwise society is controlled by silly people.

Also:

If a pedophile is not and has not acted out towards children, then yes, that person’s sexuality is nobody’s business. We all would probably like it to be our business, but it isn’t. Unfortunately, a large reason why the Church is dealing with the current crisis is because leadership decided that a pedophile who IS acting out is nobody’s business. In those cases, it’s EVERYONE’S business.

Bravo! (emphasis mine.) It takes courage to say that, given what a hot-button issue pedophilia is. People forget that it’s the act of molesting a child that’s wrong. The desire to do so, provided the person knows that acting on it is immoral and controls themselves accordingly, is nobody’s business.

 

[Cherry5]

Cherry5 - you asked, I’ll answer.

If you’re wondering what I believe about homosexuality in a spiritual sense, that’s going to be a longer conversation which will probably have to happen privately, or at least in a different thread (as I don’t want to clutter up this nice man’s discussion with my dirty hippie pagan beliefs )

On a more “this world” note… I’m neither a psychologist nor a geneticist, so I’m not qualified to give any sort of authoritative answer. However, I find it interesting to note that homosexual behavior is not at all uncommon in the animal world. I’ve read theories that the frequency of it increases as a result of population pressure, as a way of decreasing the birth rate. If I were to come up with a quick and dirty theory, I’d say that the potential for same-sex attraction, and the strength of that potential, is something that’s genetically coded into us. I’d then go on to say that it can be triggered by various factors, both environmental and psychological.

All of which sounds like a lot of gobbledy-gook, I know, but I swear I’m not trying to dodge the question! It’s just that it’s a complex question, and one that I know I don’t have a sure answer for. It’s also not one that I’ve put a whole lot of thought into. The commonly accepted wisdom amongst the people I associate with is that your sexual orientation is something you’re born with, that it’s completely natural, and that it can’t be changed, and I suppose I believe that, but the more important question (as far as I’m concerned) is: does it matter? How would knowing the cause of homosexuality change anything? If it’s something you choose rather than something you’re born with, does that make it better? Worse? Why?

Similarly, I think the question of whether it can be “cured” is less important than whether it should be, and to me, the answer is no. I think that if being attracted to the same sex makes you unhappy and you wish not to act on that attraction, then sure, therapy can help. But what the therapy would be for in that case is not getting rid of the homosexuality, it would be helping you deal in a healthy way with the psychological consequences of acting counter to your own inclinations. But I don’t see homosexuality as something that requires curing. I don’t see it as being wrong. (For a slightly silly parallel, it’s as if someone asked me if my preference for black coffee over milky, or my distaste for bell peppers, could be “cured” by therapy. My response would be a thoroughly mystified “Well, maybe, but why would I want it to be?”)

I hope that was helpful and not just a lot of rambling! (And no, the question doesn’t sound naive, but it does highlight that we’re coming at this topic from VASTLY different backgrounds!)

Thank you for your response, and appreciate your position. I have seen some comments here that seem to suggest that homosexuals can be converted to heterosexuals. Quite honestly I was a bit surprised by this, there is a big difference between “Cured” vs “dealing with Homosexuality or controlling the SSA”

I have also seen lot of evidence of homosexual behavior in the animal kingdom. So this is not unique to Humans at all. Which brings into debate as to the definition of what is “natural” is it based on ones perspective?

 

[Kolbe300]

Also, just want to say: Kolbe300, you’re awesome. I fully agree that you shouldn’t let the fear of ignorant people’s reactions force your decisions. Whether you’re talking about the church or other areas, that’s just a general guideline. Otherwise society is controlled by silly people.

Thank you, Teteli, I appreciate it. Oh, and I agree with you (not necessarily with regards to my level of awesomeness, but with not allowing ignorance to push us around. )

Quite honestly I was a bit surprised by this, there is a big difference between “Cured” vs “dealing with Homosexuality or controlling the SSA”

Hi Cherry. That little sentence of yours nails the issue directly on the head. I am no psychologist or doctor, but I believe homosexuality lies on a spectrum. There is no ONE way in which homosexuality manifests itself. I have very little doubt that outside factors such as abuse, neglect, etc. can have a profound influence on a person’s sexuality. I also think people experiment with sexuality for countless different reasons. I tend to think that for most homosexually oriented people, their sexuality is pretty much a “hard-wired” attribute of their personhood. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that this belief of mine leaves me in the minority on a Catholic message board such as this, and that’s okay.

All that being said, I am not going to argue with a person who desires to “cure” their homosexuality. If that is what they want to do, go for it. God is capable of anything. My concern is exactly the point you brought up, and it’s this: what does cure mean? Too often, the definition of cure is so vague as to be meaningless. According to many definitions of “cured”, I am cured myself (even though I sit here with a homosexual orientation)! I could get married tomorrow and call myself an ex-gay. I could do that, but it wouldn’t be honest. I would like to see psychologists and christian groups who are in the business of this type of therapy have a very direct, honest, and precise definition of what “cured” is. Is it behavior modification, or is it an outright reversal of one’s sexual orientation? I want to know because there is a colossal difference between the two.

My apologies to the OP if I have derailed this thread.

 

[antunesaa]

I feel I have to lie when a friend or family member blatantly asks, “are you homosexual?”

Well, this is a rude and unecessary question that no educated person would ask someone else. I would just turn my back to that person. That’s a heavy cross you have to carry! You’ll be in my prayers tonight.

 

[Mystic_Banana]

Thank you, Teteli, I appreciate it. Oh, and I agree with you (not necessarily with regards to my level of awesomeness, but with not allowing ignorance to push us around. )

Hi Cherry. That little sentence of yours nails the issue directly on the head. I am no psychologist or doctor, but I believe homosexuality lies on a spectrum. There is no ONE way in which homosexuality manifests itself. I have very little doubt that outside factors such as abuse, neglect, etc. can have a profound influence on a person’s sexuality. I also think people experiment with sexuality for countless different reasons. I tend to think that for most homosexually oriented people, their sexuality is pretty much a “hard-wired” attribute of their personhood. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that this belief of mine leaves me in the minority on a Catholic message board such as this, and that’s okay.

All that being said, I am not going to argue with a person who desires to “cure” their homosexuality. If that is what they want to do, go for it. God is capable of anything. My concern is exactly the point you brought up, and it’s this: what does cure mean? Too often, the definition of cure is so vague as to be meaningless. According to many definitions of “cured”, I am cured myself (even though I sit here with a homosexual orientation)! I could get married tomorrow and call myself an ex-gay. I could do that, but it wouldn’t be honest. I would like to see psychologists and christian groups who are in the business of this type of therapy have a very direct, honest, and precise definition of what “cured” is. Is it behavior modification, or is it an outright reversal of one’s sexual orientation? I want to know because there is a colossal difference between the two.

My apologies to the OP if I have derailed this thread.

Biology versus free will… it’s a nightmare. But something that always gets ignored in these concepts is social influence - I have felt in the past that homosexuality is caused by suspicions of the same from a young age. When I was at school, I remember a few other children being accused of being gay when still pre-pubescent… and then turning out to be gay. So, is it possible that homosexuals are defining themselves as such according to interpretations of their identity as being such by others?

I also watched an interesting show a few months ago indicating that there is an infant branch of genetics indicating that our genes can be influenced by experiences in life, although I’m pretty sure there was also a counter-theory tying it all in to determinism…

Homosexuality is a point I’m fuzzy about - I do think the Church has increased it’s condemnation of it in direct reaction to increasing materialist militancy in demanding to have it accepted by all as good and right. You’re also being bombarded with temptation in a culture that glories sexual excess of all kinds beyond surely any before…in this socio-political climate, to stay faithful must be more challenging for a homosexual than in some periods of, say, the middle ages

Anyway, regardless, whether sexuality is wholly biologically determined or not, socially guided, etc., you sound like you’re doing better in the ‘resisting temptation’ you’re inclined to in general than this heterosexual has to that which they are, for whom you are inspiring, as do so many on this forum, to do better

Right - I’ll shuffle back to my apologisms now… good luck and God bless! I genuinely feel that our Church is the best way to keep our minds focused truly on God and all that is good, however hard we feel that is, however troubled we are by our impulses that threaten to turn us away from it. I know I’ve failed , too often, and I regret it, and commend you in being so steadfast

 

[Newbie2]

I, for one, appreciate your avoidance of that particular comparison. If a pedophile is not and has not acted out towards children, then yes, that person’s sexuality is nobody’s business. We all would probably like it to be our business, but it isn’t. Unfortunately, a large reason why the Church is dealing with the current crisis is because leadership decided that a pedophile who IS acting out is nobody’s business. In those cases, it’s EVERYONE’S business.

If you had children, I guarantee you would think differently about this. Seriously, you think a person oriented toward having sex with children, if they didn’t actually act out on it (yet) is safe to have around children? If so, you’d be arguing against the Church’s position on ordaining priests who have a pedophilic orientation.

This is no different than, say, taking a child to daycare where there is old lead paint peeling on the walls and the daycare supervisor doesn’t think it is a problem because no child has eaten any of it yet.

I do agree, there are parents out there who think this way. You repeat the phrase, “fairly or unfairly” a number of times. Which is it? Is it fair or unfair? Is it fair when parents throw a hissy-fit over someone living and teaching the Catholic faith, someone who happens to be SSA?

I think it’s unfair to label any one with homosexual “wishes” or someone with an SSA as an automatically sinful person, i.e. someone who is acting out on their orientation in a sinful manner. There are those who would say it’s fair to harbor such suspicions. By saying fairly or unfairly I’m acknowledging that opinions differ on this.

My question is this: What is the real problem here? Is the problem a chaste, homosexual person who lives and teaches the Catholic faith, or is the problem the parents who go ballistic over someone who is living and teaching the Catholic faith, simply because they are homosexual? Is it fair or unfair? Should I have to run away from youth ministry, even though that may be an area where I can have a wonderful impact, simply because of clueless parents? My pastor sure doesn’t think so, and I don’t either.

I wouldn’t be so quick to judge all such parents as “clueless”. They might have some legitimate concerns that their child or children might get the wrong implicit idea about what a chaste homosexual/SSA person means, especially when their child is developing into their own sexuality and is not yet clear about gender roles.

But to answer your question, for the most part “Perception is reality”. Some people will always perceive that someone like yourself with an SSA is a pervert in waiting. For them, that is a real threat that cannot be explained away.

So rather than making an effort to educate parents, people like the OP and myself should just stay away from kids? I don’t know if you view this as fair or unfair, I really don’t. I do wonder, however, if you can see how this train of thought could be maddening to someone in my situation? If parents from my parish want to go raise “you-know-what” with the Bishop, I welcome it. And I’d love to know what their charge against me would be. It truly has nothing to do with “fair or unfair”, but rather, with “right and wrong.”

Well, see, you should not imply that you would welcome scandal. I think you mean, rather, that you would like to see a reasoned discussion with the bishop to help to educate such parents, no?

By all means, I sympathize with your position. Instead of being a model for living chastely when you have such a cross to bear, some would hold you up as unfit for such a ministry. In one sense, I think that is unfair. On the other hand, you need to understand parents concerns.

While adults can understand the difference between a homosexually oriented person living chastely, the struggles that one has to go through and most importantly that one’s such orientation does ***not ***equate sin, many if not most children do not possess that congnitive ability. Parents may be concerned that their children will not understand the concept of a disordered yet not sinful orientation, and may mistake acceptance of you as a person as acceptance of homosexual orientation as not disordered and/or sinful.

Many adults cannot make this distinction properly; we cannot necessarily expect kids to be able to do so, and parents are the ultimate authority (besides the Almighty, of course) when it comes to what and in what manner their kids are exposed to.

 

[Newbie2]

Well, this is a rude and unecessary question that no educated person would ask someone else. I would just turn my back to that person. That’s a heavy cross you have to carry! You’ll be in my prayers tonight.

Unfortunately, education and rudeness are not predictably related.

 

[Newbie2]

People forget that it’s the act of molesting a child that’s wrong. The desire to do so, provided the person knows that acting on it is immoral and controls themselves accordingly, is nobody’s business.

So you would be OK having your child in a daycare where there was a person with a desire for being a pedophile (that nobody knew about) working?

It’s about risk. Clearly, no parent would offer their child up to such a risk. Given the choice, honestly, would anyone want:

A) a person who expressed pedophilic desires but had never acted on them to watch their child, or

B) someone who had never even dreamed of pedophilia to watch their children?

Is there any parent on this forum who would choose A? Seriously??

Again, we arn’t talking about the OP; I’m challenging the assertion that it’s nobody’s business if a person has a desire to be a pedophile but hasn’t acted on it.

By the same token, would you want to live next door to someone who told you that they had homicidal tendencies but had them under control and have not acted on them? Who would you feel quite safe and comfortable living next door to, Mr. Homicidal tendency, or Ward and June Cleaver?

Get my point?

 

[Coleski]

Why don’t you join a Christian ex gay group such as exodus international? The big mystery really is why did God make all of us so imperfect? Your assuming that others don’t struggle with sin and disordered desires. You are assuming that the propoganda out there is the truth. Homosexuality is a really complex thing and may be to a certain degree innate in all human beings. Why lable yourself. There were when faith was taken much more seriously many who gave up the pleasures and pains of human sexual relationships to serve God and Gods’ people. What’s more important your faith or your homosexuality. If it’s homosexuality join the world and it’s ruler.

 

[Kolbe300]

If you had children, I guarantee you would think differently about this. Seriously, you think a person oriented toward having sex with children, if they didn’t actually act out on it (yet) is safe to have around children? If so, you’d be arguing against the Church’s position on ordaining priests who have a pedophilic orientation…

It’s about risk. Clearly, no parent would offer their child up to such a risk. Given the choice, honestly, would anyone want:

A) a person who expressed pedophilic desires but had never acted on them to watch their child, or

B) someone who had never even dreamed of pedophilia to watch their children?

Is there any parent on this forum who would choose A? Seriously??

Hi Newbie2. One thing is certain, I don’t have to have kids to understand what you are saying. I agree with you, no parent would choose “A” in the above situation. I also think that every person (myself included) would really prefer it if we could know which persons in our society are sexually attracted to children. It would be nice if it was all of our business, that way we could minimize risk. The fact remains, however, that it isn’t our business. We can’t force anyone to tell or admit their sexual preferences, especially when they’ve given us no reason to do so. Until they make it our business, there’s simply nothing we can do (no matter how much we might wish there was).

While adults can understand the difference between a homosexually oriented person living chastely, the struggles that one has to go through and most importantly that one’s such orientation does not equate sin, many if not most children do not possess that congnitive ability. Parents may be concerned that their children will not understand the concept of a disordered yet not sinful orientation, and may mistake acceptance of you as a person as acceptance of homosexual orientation as not disordered and/or sinful.

Your point is very well made and received (and I agree with you). I think it’s important to evaluate what a youth minister’s role is, though. I have taught quite a few confirmation classes. We’ve talked about Catholic teaching on religious life, single life, marriage, sex, sexuality, and all the other cool Catholic stuff in between. I don’t feel my job is ever to be giving specifics about my own sexuality, which is why I never have (nor will). I am single and sex is for marriage. Period. If a youth leader is teaching the Catholic faith as they should be, I don’t think any parent would need to be concerned.

You mentioned parents’ concern that their children not be able to understand the concept of a disordered yet not sinful orientation. While I can understand that concern, it is still Catholic teaching. When kids (high-school age) are going through confirmation, they should receive all of the Catholic teaching, including that. Younger kids are an exception with many areas of Catholic teaching, obviously. The kids I’ve worked with aren’t forced to accept or not accept my sexuality because it’s never the topic of conversation, which is the way it should be. A single person can and should offer their body to God alone. That can be a powerful and beautiful thing, and it’s what kids should be hearing.

Some people will always perceive that someone like yourself with an SSA is a pervert in waiting. For them, that is a real threat that cannot be explained away.

Unfortunately, I agree. I won’t, however, allow that erroneous perception to keep me from getting involved in ministry. And my heart will continue to break for the young kids dealing with SSA who have parents like these. Many parents out there, by their own words, are condemning their kids to heartache and pain without even realizing it.

Take care.

 

[marycozzens]

avoiding sin becomes easier the more you practice.
Chastity is a discipline and can lead to a very happy life.
Try to not refer to yourself as the sin you are avoiding.
Pray the rosary when impure thoughts plague you, Our Lady is always quick to help.
I am sure of this, as I have been living Chastity all of my Catholic life, since 1999, as well as before, and at first found single life [after my husband left me] to be very difficult.
Avoid thinga that cause you to think sinful ideas, and if the occur, pray right away.
You can also prevent the thoughts/feelings from cropping up by having a structured devotional life, and surrounding yourself with other people who are determined to do likewise.

remember; you are NOT your sin, you can and will overcome it.

 

[antonabe]

Thank you, Teteli, I appreciate it. Oh, and I agree with you (not necessarily with regards to my level of awesomeness, but with not allowing ignorance to push us around. )

Hi Cherry. That little sentence of yours nails the issue directly on the head. I am no psychologist or doctor, but I believe homosexuality lies on a spectrum. There is no ONE way in which homosexuality manifests itself. I have very little doubt that outside factors such as abuse, neglect, etc. can have a profound influence on a person’s sexuality. I also think people experiment with sexuality for countless different reasons. I tend to think that for most homosexually oriented people, their sexuality is pretty much a “hard-wired” attribute of their personhood. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that this belief of mine leaves me in the minority on a Catholic message board such as this, and that’s okay.

Yes you are right cure may be better applied to elimination of disease which are brought about by external forces or perhaps internal as well.Sexual orientation is of course different.Males and female have been differentiated genetically but there is no scientific evidence to differentiate other sexual orientations such as Homosexual or other unnatural sexual orietations.We must admit that the Catholic will view a sexual act with the same sex,child or animal as a Sin and we cannot get away from that.
If a person is embarassed having unnatural sexual behaviour or inclinations and wishes to live normally they should seek therapy.

All that being said, I am not going to argue with a person who desires to “cure” their homosexuality. If that is what they want to do, go for it. God is capable of anything. My concern is exactly the point you brought up, and it’s this: what does cure mean? Too often, the definition of cure is so vague as to be meaningless. According to many definitions of “cured”, I am cured myself (even though I sit here with a homosexual orientation)! I could get married tomorrow and call myself an ex-gay. I could do that, but it wouldn’t be honest. I would like to see psychologists and christian groups who are in the business of this type of therapy have a very direct, honest, and precise definition of what “cured” is. Is it behavior modification, or is it an outright reversal of one’s sexual orientation? I want to know because there is a colossal difference between the two.

My apologies to the OP if I have derailed this thread.

 

[antonabe]

Hi Newbie2. One thing is certain, I don’t have to have kids to understand what you are saying. I agree with you, no parent would choose “A” in the above situation. I also think that every person (myself included) would really prefer it if we could know which persons in our society are sexually attracted to children. It would be nice if it was all of our business, that way we could minimize risk. The fact remains, however, that it isn’t our business. We can’t force anyone to tell or admit their sexual preferences, especially when they’ve given us no reason to do so. Until they make it our business, there’s simply nothing we can do (no matter how much we might wish there was).

Your point is very well made and received (and I agree with you). I think it’s important to evaluate what a youth minister’s role is, though. I have taught quite a few confirmation classes. We’ve talked about Catholic teaching on religious life, single life, marriage, sex, sexuality, and all the other cool Catholic stuff in between. I don’t feel my job is ever to be giving specifics about my own sexuality, which is why I never have (nor will). I am single and sex is for marriage. Period. If a youth leader is teaching the Catholic faith as they should be, I don’t think any parent would need to be concerned.

You mentioned parents’ concern that their children not be able to understand the concept of a disordered yet not sinful orientation. While I can understand that concern, it is still Catholic teaching. When kids (high-school age) are going through confirmation, they should receive all of the Catholic teaching, including that. Younger kids are an exception with many areas of Catholic teaching, obviously. The kids I’ve worked with aren’t forced to accept or not accept my sexuality because it’s never the topic of conversation, which is the way it should be. A single person can and should offer their body to God alone. That can be a powerful and beautiful thing, and it’s what kids should be hearing.

Unfortunately, I agree. I won’t, however, allow that erroneous perception to keep me from getting involved in ministry. And my heart will continue to break for the young kids dealing with SSA who have parents like these. Many parents out there, by their own words, are condemning their kids to heartache and pain without even realizing it.

Take care.

You are right the word cure should be used in the elimination of desease by internal and external forces.The Male and Female gender is distinct genetically but the problem we have is in the case of others who have unnatural sexual orientations.We have no scientific means to show that these orientations are inherent in individuals from birth.We also have to accept that Homosexuality,sex with Children and Animals are grave sins and deserve to be called unnatural sexual orientations.The originator of this thread is struggling with this problem of homosexualityand wishes to be persistantly chaste but he finds it difficult and he is is praying to God asking for a solution.He could also try Therapy as a means of eliminating his misery.

 

[kingk3d2]

I am Catholic, and I love my faith about everything else. I know the Church’s moral and theological teaching pretty well, and have had sixteen years of the best Catholic education money can buy (grade school, high school and college). I worked for three years in youth ministry and am am integral part of several ongoing social justice missions.

However, I am a homosexual. It is the greatest sorrow of my life and is a source of constant suffering. I am twenty-four years old, and my entire life I have been fighting the feelings I cannot help but have. I live chastely and pray that I will be purified, but still it looms over every aspect of my life. According to the Church, I cannot live openly as a homosexual, but this leads to a lot of venial sins I must commit in order to hide my true nature, specifically lying.

Are the lies I have to tell in order to keep my nature hidden sinful?

Dear brother in Christ,
I am glad to hear that you strive to live chastely! This takes courage and a lot of hard work. I can relate to this a little-I went to seminary for two years. Chasity isn’t hard, its just humanely impossible. Luckily, we can count on Gods grace to help us out in this area. Keep in mind that the vast majority of people have disordered sexual desire that need to come to terms with, and take some comfort in the fact. Married couples, priests, and religious all have these very human desires. Seminarians do too. They might not be towards the same sex, but most people desire some sort of sexual activity that would be damaging to themselves and others if pursued. Everyone one is called to chasity, and this is best achieved when we support each other. Also, remember that chastity isn’t your gift to God, but God’s gift to you. Living chastely can grant you access to a rich life and a closer relationship to God. Bear in mind God’s promise to the Eunichs in Isaiah 56
3…And let not any eunuch complain,
“I am only a dry tree.”

4 For this is what the LORD says:
"To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths,
who choose what pleases me
and hold fast to my covenant-

5 to them I will give within my temple and its walls
a memorial and a name
better than sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
that will not be cut off.

I have two points I wish to make about your questions about venial sins. First, realize that they are venial sins. Your intent isn’t to deceive, but to not cause scandal. Although lieing might not be the most honorable course of action, don’t get too scrupulous and worried about whats said in the spur of the moment. If you are having a great deal of trouble in this area, find a priest who you can trust and will bring the love of God to you and within the confessional talk to him about this. A priest cannot break the seal of the confessional and remain a priest, so you should feel safe talking there.
Second, your sexual desires shouldn’t define you. St. Augustine, someone who struggled a great deal with chasity talks about how all our earthly desires are really longings after God, just twisted and falling short of him. We are made to long for God. Sin is when we settle for less. You are the son of the Father of the Universe through Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. Remember your actions define you, not your desires.
Finally, not everyone needs to know the truth. If you think they can benefit in someway from learning about your struggles, you should tell them, or if their someone you can trust and will provide you with support you should tell them. Otherwise, their is really no need for them to know. Most people would go around saying they had disordered desires for incest, or adultry, or pornography, or any other of a vast number of sexual fantasies. Most of the time this wouldn’t be appropriate or beneficial. If people have no right to know the truth, don’t get too worried about it. Try to aviod lieing, but don’t get too worried about a spurr of the moment slip up.

God bless

 

[Newbie2]

Hi Newbie2. One thing is certain, I don’t have to have kids to understand what you are saying. I agree with you, no parent would choose “A” in the above situation. I also think that every person (myself included) would really prefer it if we could know which persons in our society are sexually attracted to children. It would be nice if it was all of our business, that way we could minimize risk.*** The fact remains, however, that it isn’t our business. We can’t force anyone to tell or admit their sexual preferences, especially when they’ve given us no reason to do so. Until they make it our business, there’s simply nothing we can do (no matter how much we might wish there was). ***

Well…we (now at least) screen priests for SSA and for pedophilic tendencies, don’t we? Why shouldn’t we ask the same questions of anyone else that works with children is what I wonder.

 

[Kolbe300]

Well…we (now at least) screen priests for SSA and for pedophilic tendencies, don’t we? Why shouldn’t we ask the same questions of anyone else that works with children is what I wonder.

Okay, so let’s say we are doing that now. If I answer yes to being SSA, and yes to living Catholic teaching, should I be disqualified?

 

[Newbie2]

Okay, so let’s say we are doing that now. If I answer yes to being SSA, and yes to living Catholic teaching, should I be disqualified?

Excellent question. To ge honest, I’m not entirely sure.

This is sorta like “don’t ask, don’t tell”.

On one hand, I think we need to apply the same standards to everyone involved in children’s ministries, clergy and lay alike. On the other hand, if someone has a gift or aptitude for teaching children and lives according to Catholic teaching, is their SSA really a valid issue?

However, if pressed for an answer, I’d lean toward applying the same standards to both clergy and lay folks, first, to avoid the appearance of scandal and second, because we’re dealing with children who for the most part aren’t yet capable of understanding the complexities of SSA/homosexuality as it relates to church teaching.

That being said, to be consistant we would need to apply the same principle to any lay person like an unmarried person living with their boyfriend/girlfriend or a separated person living with another in a like manner i.e. living in a very public way against Church teaching. Yes, a chaste homosexual/SSA person is living in accordance with Church teachings, we must remember that.

I think that such persons might be better off in a different kind of ministry, one other than those that deals with children. We cannot go as far as to say that no sinner can be involved in any ministry, of course, as we’d have nobody available.

However, children’s ministries are different, and we need to be sensitive to the fact that they are far more capable of misunderstanding the application of Church teachings.

 

[marycozzens]

I think this says it all;

Romans 13:14
But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to filfill its lust

Saturday
2 Corinthians 7:1
Let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminate body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God

Sunday
1 Corinthians 10:31
So whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God