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Maryam
Guest
Last one…
And when Israeli solidiers kill innocent children such as I pointed out above… don’t blame the Israeli army… geesh…
God bless
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And when Israeli solidiers kill innocent children such as I pointed out above… don’t blame the Israeli army… geesh…
God bless
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Jeffrey
Guest
Agreed… until they are held responsilble and give up thier terrorist ways… they’ll reap what they sow. And its all bad for everyone involved.
Geldain:
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gnjsdad
Guest
Maryam said:
Indeed, this kind of collective punishment is contrary to any Christian notion of justice.
How hypocritical we Americans must look when we lecture the Arabs about the benefits of democracy, and after the Palestinians hold the freest and fairest elections any Arab state ever held, we threaten to cut off their economic aid when we get a result we don’t like.
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Geldain
Guest
When Israel deliberately targets innocent children you’ll have a valid complaint.
When innocent children are used as human shields by these cowardly terrorists and are killed it’s not Israel’s fault. Again, you want to blame Israel for the cowardly actions of the terrorists. Makes zero sense.
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Geldain
Guest
So Israel should leave their borders open to Hamas terrorists? That’s a form of suicide that’s certainly against all the Christian teachings I’ve ever been taught.
This is a canard. If Canada decided to elect a government which holds that all US citizens shall one day be pushed into the sea, that our nation had no right to exist, I doubt we would keep our borders open.
If anyone is “starving” a group of people here, it’s the people living in the PA, starving themselves to death on their own bloodlust and unwillingness to manufacture anything but violence.
Also, it’s worth noting nations have been held responsible for the leaders and their anti-jewish policies they elected in the past. At a cost of many millions of lives.
Methinks Israel’s policy is a wise one. The people living in the PA (did ya see how peace-loving they are amoungst themselves recently? Sure, let’s make Israel let that kind of street violence spill into their country…not) are reaping what they’ve sown.
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melbourne_guy
Guest
Geldain your an inspiration to our organisation. 
Maryam is obviously speaking from her good willed heart ignoring all the facts about the current situation. BTW Israel have allready opened alternative trade routes for all the palestians who cant bebothered building an economy.
Maryam is obviously speaking from her good willed heart ignoring all the facts about the current situation. BTW Israel have allready opened alternative trade routes for all the palestians who cant bebothered building an economy.
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Robert_Bay
Guest
WARNING
Please avoid generalizations of people such as: Palestinians cannot be bothered to… or wording your language in a way that infers that Israeli soldiers are deliberately killing children (unless you provide proof). The generalizations do not assist in dialogue.
Please self-edit for tone and content before clicking the “Submit” button. If the charity level does not improve, this thread will have to be locked. Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.
Please avoid generalizations of people such as: Palestinians cannot be bothered to… or wording your language in a way that infers that Israeli soldiers are deliberately killing children (unless you provide proof). The generalizations do not assist in dialogue.
Please self-edit for tone and content before clicking the “Submit” button. If the charity level does not improve, this thread will have to be locked. Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.
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melbourne_guy
Guest
yeh sorry about that, wrong thing to say.
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gilliam
Guest
Hamas Minister Vows to Protect Terrorists: No Arrests
By Steve Schippert
Hamas has appointed their new Interior Minister, Saeed Seyam, who arrived on the scene leaving few questions regarding the Hamas approach to internal security. “The day will never come when any Palestinian would be arrested because of his political affiliation or because of resisting the occupation,” he said in an interview. He swore to protect Palestinian terror groups in the name of resistance proclaiming, “Saeed Seyam did not come to the government to revive any security cooperation or to protect the occupation and their settlers. I came to protect our people and their fighters, to protect their trees, their properties and their capabilities.” Sayem pronounced that, under his watch, the various Palestinian groups, rather than be arrested for attacks on Israelis, will be coordinated with for ‘day-to-day’ security issues.
This is the character that can be expected from a Hamas-led Palestinian Authority, and the principal reason that Israel has sealed their borders to the point of even blocking Palestinians who have held permits to work in Israel. Hamas’ character is not serving the Palestinian people on the economic front in this regard, and Hamas remains unapologetic in its uncompromising approach to confrontation with Israel. The Palestinian Authority – and the Palestinian people it serves – remains dependent on Israel. Fully 21% of the Palestinian economy is already constituted by outside aid. Another significant segment of their economy relies upon cross-border trade with and employment within the very Jewish state which Hamas vows to destroy in both its charter and in its regular rhetoric.
inbrief.threatswatch.org/2006/03/hamas-minister-vows-to-protect/
By Steve Schippert
Hamas has appointed their new Interior Minister, Saeed Seyam, who arrived on the scene leaving few questions regarding the Hamas approach to internal security. “The day will never come when any Palestinian would be arrested because of his political affiliation or because of resisting the occupation,” he said in an interview. He swore to protect Palestinian terror groups in the name of resistance proclaiming, “Saeed Seyam did not come to the government to revive any security cooperation or to protect the occupation and their settlers. I came to protect our people and their fighters, to protect their trees, their properties and their capabilities.” Sayem pronounced that, under his watch, the various Palestinian groups, rather than be arrested for attacks on Israelis, will be coordinated with for ‘day-to-day’ security issues.
This is the character that can be expected from a Hamas-led Palestinian Authority, and the principal reason that Israel has sealed their borders to the point of even blocking Palestinians who have held permits to work in Israel. Hamas’ character is not serving the Palestinian people on the economic front in this regard, and Hamas remains unapologetic in its uncompromising approach to confrontation with Israel. The Palestinian Authority – and the Palestinian people it serves – remains dependent on Israel. Fully 21% of the Palestinian economy is already constituted by outside aid. Another significant segment of their economy relies upon cross-border trade with and employment within the very Jewish state which Hamas vows to destroy in both its charter and in its regular rhetoric.
inbrief.threatswatch.org/2006/03/hamas-minister-vows-to-protect/
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gnjsdad
Guest
gilliam said:
The Israelis may deal with this guy in their usual fashion - targeted assassination. Of course, a few innocent bystanders might become collateral damage, but hey, it’s called “fighting terrorism” so the action would be excused.
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Geldain
Guest
Well by all means, let the guy live to direct more terrorist acts while he uses innocent people as human shields…not
If Israel does target this guy and innocents are hurt or killed, it’s on his head for hiding amoung them.
From where you sit gnjsdad, how would you deal with these people or with anyone who hides behind innocent people and directs others to commit terrorist acts?
I look forward to your answer with great aniticipation.
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gnjsdad
Guest
Interesting. We’re talking about the new Palestinian Interior Minister, installed by the Palestinians’ freely and fairly elected government. One would hope that the first inclination of a neighboring, even hostile, state, which purports to be civilized, would be to “let the guy live”.
BTW, I know nothing about the man in question, so if you can produce evidence that he’s responsible for **one **terrorist act, I’d like to see it. Or, is he, as a Palestinian, ipso facto a terrorist? Sure sounds like that’s what you’re saying.
This shows that you seem unaware, whether deliberately so or not, I can’t tell, of the situation in Gaza. It’s one of the most densely populated areas on earth. No matter where you go there, you’re going to be surrounded innocent people.while he uses innocent people as human shields…not
If Israel does target this guy and innocents are hurt or killed, it’s on his head for hiding amoung them.
As far as the West Bank, what’s happening there is that the Israelis are appropriating more and more Palestinian land and forcing those Palestinians who don’t leave into what amount to densely crowded “bantustans”.
It’s very simplistic to claim that Palestinians who adopt terrorist tactics against Israel do so by using innocents as human shields.
First, let me say that I’m encouraged by the Kadima Party in Israel saying that it’s willing to explore dividing Jerusalem. That will be a helpful step, IMO, toward peace.
If Israel really wants to curtail suicide attacks, it would announce that it will do in the West Bank what it did in Gaza - move the settlers to Israel proper and turn the land over to the Palestinian Authority. Any settlers who insist on staying should be told that they can’t count on protection by the IDF or police, and that they will have to rely on PA protection. This, it seems now, hasn’t a prayer of happening, but it’s nice to dream.
Any Palestinian accused of terrorist acts against Israel should be brought to Israel for trial. Produce the evidence in public and let a jury decide. That is the civilized way of handling this. Targeted assassinations, IMO, are morally equivalent to terrorist acts.
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Zerith
Guest
Hey, yes! Everything in life is that simple.
Why didn’t we Irish decide to produce food in 1845 instead of getting money from America to buy arms for the IRA?
Yet, we constantly get sympathy for that. What I find hilarious is, is that - I don’t know if this goes on anymore, but several years ago, from friends who have lived in America for about a year or so, said there were famine collections for Ireland in pubs, and collections for the IRA, to “free” Ireland from the British… What amazed my friends was the amount of people that gave money to both. The former was simply a scam to get money, the latter, is where the IRA and Sinn Féin got their international funds from (£70,000,000+), which, of course, is now prohibited, by the British, and by the American governments.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
And a stupid move that was!
When you deny people access to the political process (as the Nationalists in Northern Ireland were), you virtuially guarentee violence. As John F. Kennedy said, “Those who make peaceful change impossible make violent change inevitable.”
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Geldain
Guest
One would hope this man will announce he no longer supports terrorism and he does support Israel’s right to exist. In addtion to avoiding assasination from Israel, it will be the right thing for him to do.
Don’t have the time to search now but I will later. I do know Hamas, the party he represents doesn’t recognize Israel’s right to exist and supports and directs terrorist actions against Israel, in deed and in word.
At least as much as I’ve suggested the planet Jupiter is made of cherry jello
Such an assertion in this instance, from where I sit, is a extreme mischaracterization.Never been there, I must admit.
Which explains why these cowardly terrorist leaders prefer hiding amoung the general population. They get to hide, avoiding justice, or if they are killed and innocents die in the process the terrorists have more fodder for the media and those who only focus on innocent deaths from a single direction.
I didn’t ask you about the West bank. Addtionally, I notice also you provided no link to validate your assertion.
It’s also very true. From where I sit, the dismissal of any valid notion because it’s simplistic is a tool of intellectual dishonesty.
Interesting notion for another discussion.
Here’s the paramount flaw in your argument/assertion. When you say “if Israel really wants to curtial suicide attacks” you imply A)Israel might not want to see suicide attacks end–a notion that has no basis in fact and B)that Israel is responsible for people putting on a bombbelt and getting onto a bus, detonating that bomb-belt for the sole purpose of killing innocent people. This is an extreme example of flawed logic, from where I sit.
Interesting notions for another thread perhaps.
Odds on Hamas complying?
Moral equivalency, from where I sit, is a tool of Satan introduced to allow people to call good things evil and evil things good. But that’s another issue for another thread.
I’m not asking you about settlers, not the Kadmima party nor any other complaint you might have against Israel or whoever. It’s a simple, specific question. From where you sit gnjsdad, how would you deal with these people or with anyone who hides behind innocent people and directs others to commit terrorist acts?
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Geldain
Guest
Usually, yes.
I don’t know. Perhaps a thread regarding this issue would answer your question.
An issue I’m admittedly ignorant of is the matter of Ireland and the British. Of course, this thread is about neither
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vern_humphrey
Guest
I don’t mean to hijack the thread, but let me address this:
The problem was that the English owned the land, not the Irish. Poor Irish crofters had to make a living on a quarter of an acre or so – and potatoes were the only crop that would allow them to come even close. So when the potato blight wiped out that crop, the population starved.
Next, the IRA didn’t exist in 1845. During the uprising of 1916, James Connolly, the military commander of the rebel forces (which came from several organizations) first used the term Irish Republican Army. The name was not officially adopted until 1920, however.
We did produce food! The port records of Ireland show that enough grain and cattle were shipped to England during the famine years to feed the entire population of Ireland (actually more than enough.)
The problem was that the English owned the land, not the Irish. Poor Irish crofters had to make a living on a quarter of an acre or so – and potatoes were the only crop that would allow them to come even close. So when the potato blight wiped out that crop, the population starved.
Next, the IRA didn’t exist in 1845. During the uprising of 1916, James Connolly, the military commander of the rebel forces (which came from several organizations) first used the term Irish Republican Army. The name was not officially adopted until 1920, however.
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Zerith
Guest
vern humphrey:
Second, “We” was reference to us Irish, not you Americans. For one, the grain you sent sat in our docks to rot, as Irish people had no clue what it was, or what to do with it.
Great, thanks for the history lesson, of something I learned when I was five.
The English owned the land, we worked it. They took our profits, at times, it was more than the Irish even earned. Which led to evictions - Which was wide scale during the famine, as their only source of income was taken away. Essentially, you can look at the United Kingdom as a business. Taking resources from all over the world, and then producing goods - Ireland was the UK’s food supply.
If the Irish owned the land, we’d still have had the famine, as Irish farming was essentially backwards. We never adopted modern methods or machinary, there was no point for two reasons, one being, yes, the English owned the land, and would rack up the rent, but the other being, as we were very religious, we were very supersticious, and we were then slow to adopt new technologies and methods. The latter, which if we owned the land would be the only one to apply, would be enough to ensure that the famine would’ve happened anyway.
Also, James Connolly was the leader of the Irish Citizen Army, he is the founder of the Irish Labour Party. Connelly died in 1916, it was renamed in 1917 - He was on the supreme council in 1915, though was still the leader of the ICA. But I was wrong in even saying it would be the IRB in 1845, they didn’t exist then either - But still, my point being, how many people here would 1) Know, or 2) care? Seen as most people here are American, Irish history doesn’t really apply to them.
Geldain, look at my time reference for those collections, I was referring to the NINETIES. Ten or fifteen years ago, not 160! It would be a great help if: 1) They were not scams. 2) If they were in 1845, or if 3) They had a time machine!
Yes, yes. Trust me, I know the history of the naming of the IRA - But not everyone on these forums will know about Irish history. It was easier for me to say IRA.
Second, “We” was reference to us Irish, not you Americans. For one, the grain you sent sat in our docks to rot, as Irish people had no clue what it was, or what to do with it.
Great, thanks for the history lesson, of something I learned when I was five.
The English owned the land, we worked it. They took our profits, at times, it was more than the Irish even earned. Which led to evictions - Which was wide scale during the famine, as their only source of income was taken away. Essentially, you can look at the United Kingdom as a business. Taking resources from all over the world, and then producing goods - Ireland was the UK’s food supply.
If the Irish owned the land, we’d still have had the famine, as Irish farming was essentially backwards. We never adopted modern methods or machinary, there was no point for two reasons, one being, yes, the English owned the land, and would rack up the rent, but the other being, as we were very religious, we were very supersticious, and we were then slow to adopt new technologies and methods. The latter, which if we owned the land would be the only one to apply, would be enough to ensure that the famine would’ve happened anyway.
Also, James Connolly was the leader of the Irish Citizen Army, he is the founder of the Irish Labour Party. Connelly died in 1916, it was renamed in 1917 - He was on the supreme council in 1915, though was still the leader of the ICA. But I was wrong in even saying it would be the IRB in 1845, they didn’t exist then either - But still, my point being, how many people here would 1) Know, or 2) care? Seen as most people here are American, Irish history doesn’t really apply to them.
Geldain, look at my time reference for those collections, I was referring to the NINETIES. Ten or fifteen years ago, not 160! It would be a great help if: 1) They were not scams. 2) If they were in 1845, or if 3) They had a time machine!
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vern_humphrey
Guest
“We” meaning my family were starved out of our homes and our cottages tumbled. “We” meaning my family came to New Orleans, where the civic works projects had been abandoned – too many slaves dying of disease in the swamps. “We” meaning my family dug the canals and died by the thousands there.
Which is what happened to my family
In fact, Celtic farming methods were more productive than early 19th century farming methods. As I pointed out, Irish port records show Ireland shipped enough food to England during the Famine to feed all the people of Ireland, and a good bit more.
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gnjsdad
Guest
And I gave you my answer. I took your question to mean “how would I (if I were the Israelis), deal with these poeple”?
The items I raised are issues central to solving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and putting an end to suicide attacks.
I gave a, by necessity, thumbnail sketch of how I thought they should be dealt with. If my answer doesn’t satisfy you, oh well, them’s the breaks.
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