For German bishops mercy comes at a price, critics charge

[Corki]

An official statement? No… Actually, not offering information is not a statement at all. It’s the exact opposite of a statement.

…this is radicalism, where salvation is being held ransom for money.

No, it’s an official, legal document. It’s not a matter of withholding information. It’s officially telling the government that you don’t consider yourself Catholic anymore and that you don’t want the government to recognize you as Catholic either. In fact, if it’ a tax dodge, you pretty much have to declare that you are not a member of any church since they all get a piece of the government church tax on a per person basis. You can’t get much more official than that.

 

[Hobbes42]

Pat Payne

The moment they deny their faith, they commit apostasy. It’s why the Bishops are denying them the sacraments, until they go to confession and proclaim their faith.

You can not receive the sacrament while in sin, in this case, apostasy.

That’s the reason why they deny their faith. Can you imagine if it was a risk to their life if they didn’t deny their faith ?

Yeah, I don’t like the idea of the government collecting a tax for religion. I believe deeply in the separation of Church and State and why I’m glad I don’t live in Germany under such a law.

Jim

Except they can’t go to Confession, remember?

I don’t see them doing this with other people who literally deny that they are believing Catholics, only the tax evaders.

What happens if a person is denied this way and dies, without access to the Sacraments, without access to a Catholic burial. They better get a lawyer while on their death bed so they can pay up to receive the Sacraments.

Sheesh. Luther revolted over lesser things, back then it was only indulgences, now it is the entire life of the Church that is being sold. I didn’t know there was a price tag on God’s Grace, apparently there is

 

[rfournier103]

I was having a conversation with one of the priests at my parish last week about the recent synod, and he specifically cited the German bishops, the “church tax” and several other factors as a reason for the major upheaval at the synod. It was shocking to me…

Christ’s Universal Church needs our urgent prayers now more than ever. Especially the Church in Germany and our Holy Father.

 

[rfournier103]

Except they can’t go to Confession, remember?

I don’t see them doing this with other people who literally deny that they are believing Catholics, only the tax evaders.

What happens if a person is denied this way and dies, without access to the Sacraments, without access to a Catholic burial. They better get a lawyer while on their death bed so they can pay up to receive the Sacraments.

Sheesh. Luther revolted over lesser things, back then it was only indulgences, now it is the entire life of the Church that is being sold. I didn’t know there was a price tag on God’s Grace, apparently there is

Our God is a merciful God, and He knows if a good and faithful Christian is denied his rights as a member of the Church. I KNOW He would take this into account. Some things are out of our control.

I would be much more afraid for the men denying the Sacraments to the faithful…

 

[saintjohnxxiii]

No, it’s an official, legal document. It’s not a matter of withholding information. It’s officially telling the government that you don’t consider yourself Catholic anymore and that you don’t want the government to recognize you as Catholic either. In fact, if it’ a tax dodge, you pretty much have to declare that you are not a member of any church since they all get a piece of the government church tax on a per person basis. You can’t get much more official than that.

What you fail to understand is that this tax imposes a specific amount of your income to go to the Church. When the Catholic Church doesn’t require a specific amount then this is something that no Catholic is morally obliged to comply. Saying that you aren’t a Catholic to an immoral tax that is against Catholic teaching hardly constitutes apostasy or any wrong doing on the laity part.

 

[FollowChrist34]

I was having a conversation with one of the priests at my parish last week about the recent synod, and he specifically cited the German bishops, the “church tax” and several other factors as a reason for the major upheaval at the synod. It was shocking to me…

Christ’s Universal Church needs our urgent prayers now more than ever. Especially the Church in Germany and our Holy Father.

I have suspected this for awhile. It amazes me how little this has been recognized, but I guess since we are talking about it now, maybe that is changing. I do think the plight of the German bishops and this, frankly scandalous tax issue (IMHO) played in to what happened at the Synod. The Church in Germany is not the healthiest. It did seem like the subjects that were discussed and how the emphasis was placed was a bit odd for a Family Synod about presenting the Church’s message on marriage and family to the modern world.

 

[TEPO]

No, it’s an official, legal document. It’s not a matter of withholding information. It’s officially telling the government that you don’t consider yourself Catholic anymore and that you don’t want the government to recognize you as Catholic either. In fact, if it’ a tax dodge, you pretty much have to declare that you are not a member of any church since they all get a piece of the government church tax on a per person basis. You can’t get much more official than that.

Since when are government documents considered ecclesiastically legal by Church laws? Does the Church accept the legality of divorce and gay marriage now too? Or is the cut off line located somewhere between information and law. Basically what youre saying is that government plays a role in the excommunication of souls on what information they recieve on government forms, which is outrageous. Government forms are no more official to Church laws than Church forms are to government laws.

We cannot “assume” anything about Catholics from non-catholic sources.

 

[TEPO]

These german cardinals are destroying the Church by allowing State laws and documents to guide their Conferences, as well as the Church. What a huge mistake!

Maybe a schism will result, if theyre not stopped.

 

[saintjohnxxiii]

These german cardinals are destroying the Church by allowing State laws and documents to guide their Conferences, as well as the Church. What a huge mistake!

Maybe a schism will result, if theyre not stopped.

Here’s an interesting legal consideration. Say Rome tells the German Bishops to stop it. They refuse. Rome attempts to remove them from their posts and they revolt. By German law would the law recognize who the Vatican says are the true Archbishops and who aren’t?

This scenario isn’t that far fetched. It happened here in Toronto back in the 90s when the Vatican appointed Bishop Danylak as the Eparchy for the Ukrainian Catholics. The previous Eparch was Bishop Borecki and he refused to move. Bishop Borecki was being replaced due to his advanced age. For a while both were around.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Danylak

 

[ProVobis]

Here’s an interesting legal consideration. Say Rome tells the German Bishops to stop it. They refuse. Rome attempts to remove them from their posts and they revolt.

They (and all the priests which report to them) can always be suspended. And furthermore the Vatican can withdraw all faculties to hear confessions and perform marriages. And if they try to consecrate other bishops, they will be automatically excommunicated under current Canon Law. Won’t be the first time that’s happened either.

 

[CrossofChrist]

Don’t leave the Church just to save a thousand bucks or so.

I also don’t get the outcry here on CAF. I may not agree with the policy, at least not all of it, but there’s nothing immoral about having a tax that supports the local Church. If you don’t pay taxes for some reason, you don’t have to pay the Church tax either. Someone might say it discriminates against religious people; but there shouldn’t be a huge outcry against supporting your own Church. What’s wrong with supporting your Church? The revenue isn’t coming in voluntarily? Well, it becomes a matter of prudence for what to do.

Personally, I think they should have 9% of the income tax replace the 9% Church tax. Instead of doing an addition to the existing taxes, just cut that percent out of the normal rate to give to the Church. Not that it’s an appealing proposition for secular people. So then I say lower the tax to around where Austria’s is.

And If someone is willing to publicly declare themselves a non-Catholic (assuming not under extreme duress) they shouldn’t receive the sacraments.

 

[TEPO]

Don’t leave the Church just to save a thousand bucks or so.

I also don’t get the outcry here on CAF. I may not agree with the policy, at least not all of it, but there’s nothing immoral about having a tax that supports the local Church. If you don’t pay taxes for some reason, you don’t have to pay the Church tax either. Someone might say it discriminates against religious people; but there shouldn’t be a huge outcry against supporting your own Church. What’s wrong with supporting your Church? The revenue isn’t coming in voluntarily? Well, it becomes a matter of prudence for what to do.

Personally, I think they should have 9% of the income tax replace the 9% Church tax. Instead of doing an addition to the existing taxes, just cut that percent out of the normal rate to give to the Church. Not that it’s an appealing proposition for secular people. So then I say lower the tax to around where Austria’s is.

And If someone is willing to publicly declare themselves a non-Catholic (assuming not under extreme duress) they shouldn’t receive the sacraments.

Apostates don’t want sacraments. People in communion with the Church want sacraments, which is why they shouldnt be excommunicated.

 

[saintjohnxxiii]

Don’t leave the Church just to save a thousand bucks or so.

I also don’t get the outcry here on CAF. I may not agree with the policy, at least not all of it, but there’s nothing immoral about having a tax that supports the local Church. If you don’t pay taxes for some reason, you don’t have to pay the Church tax either. Someone might say it discriminates against religious people; but there shouldn’t be a huge outcry against supporting your own Church. What’s wrong with supporting your Church? The revenue isn’t coming in voluntarily? Well, it becomes a matter of prudence for what to do.

Personally, I think they should have 9% of the income tax replace the 9% Church tax. Instead of doing an addition to the existing taxes, just cut that percent out of the normal rate to give to the Church. Not that it’s an appealing proposition for secular people. So then I say lower the tax to around where Austria’s is.

And If someone is willing to publicly declare themselves a non-Catholic (assuming not under extreme duress) they shouldn’t receive the sacraments.

1. Nobody is talking about leaving the Church.
2. The problem with this is that Sacraments are being withheld if a person doesn’t want to pay the tax but contribute voluntarily. The Church doesn’t require people to pay a certain percentage as a means to participate in the life of the Church and the German Bishops are not above Rome and the teachings of the Church.
3. Declaring that you aren’t Catholic to secular authorities for the sole purpose of not paying this illegal Church tax doesn’t constitute apostasy at all and should never result in denying of the Sacraments.

 

[TEPO]

There is no logic behind an apostate wanting to recieve a sacrament.

…just like Pat Payne pointed out in post #24.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Then the Bishops are wrong as this would never fly in an Ecclesiastical Court.

If the person answers “none,” then they are are at least, lying.

However, as the state keeps statistics, when they answer none instead of Catholic, the state then get’s false data with regards to how people believe.

It’s the mess that results when church and state are involved this deeply with each other.

Jim

 

[TEPO]

If the person answers “none,” then they are are at least, lying.

However, as the state keeps statistics, when they answer none instead of Catholic, the state then get’s false data with regards to how people believe.

It’s the mess that results when church and state are involved this deeply with each other.

Jim

Hah, exactly. The Census Bureau has been knocking on the door harassing me sending me letters about how important it is that i allow them inside my home so they can complete their study. They say they have been showing up at my address for the past 7 years, collecting information about crime and other statistics, and that its extremely important that i talk to them.

Last week some woman who acted like Diane Sawyer arrived again pounding and pounding asking to come inside so i told her that i dont believe in polls or statistics. She gauked at me in shock and asked why, so i told her it was against my religion and then she scampered off.

I believe in the principle of government staying out of my personal life.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Hah, exactly. The Census Bureau has been knocking on the door harassing me sending me letters about how important it is that i allow them inside my home so they can complete their study. They say they have been showing up at my address for the past 7 years, collecting information about crime and other statistics, and that its extremely important that i talk to them.

Last week some woman who acted like Diane Sawyer arrived again pounding and pounding asking to come inside so i told her that i dont believe in polls or statistics. She gauked at me in shock and asked why, so i told her it was against my religion and then she scampered off.

I believe in the principle of government staying out of my personal life.

The problem with your attitude is that it’s through census that they determine how many sate reps to congress your state gets.

If everyone took your attitude, your state would end up with less representatives than they might otherwise get.

Your paranoia is far fetched on this point.

Jim

 

[TEPO]

The problem with your attitude is that it’s through census that they determine how many sate reps to congress your state gets.

If everyone took your attitude, your state would end up with less representatives than they might otherwise get.

Your paranoia is far fetched on this point.

Jim

No, they actually said they were conducting a 7 or 10 year study as a poll, involving crime, and that my refusal to comply would ruin the accuracy of the entire poll, since my address was randomly chosen and the previous people were compliant. They even answered a return phone call at midnight.

…I say: spend tax money more wisely, not on studying the ‘masses’.

 

[Corki]

Since when are government documents considered ecclesiastically legal by Church laws? Does the Church accept the legality of divorce and gay marriage now too? Or is the cut off line located somewhere between information and law. Basically what youre saying is that government plays a role in the excommunication of souls on what information they recieve on government forms, which is outrageous. Government forms are no more official to Church laws than Church forms are to government laws.

We cannot “assume” anything about Catholics from non-catholic sources.

There are quite a few civil documents that are accepted by the Church for a variety of purposes. Birth certificates for proof of age, civil divorce certificates to start an annulment process, drivers licenses to establish identity for hiring purposes, background check results for religious ed teachers, etc. etc. etc.

There is no Catholic form that a person fills out to renounce the faith. Apostasy, heresy and schism are all sins that are conducted through public declarations. In the case of Germany, the declaration can be made to the government via the tax process. There is no reason the Church would not accept that.

 

[TEPO]

There are quite a few civil documents that are accepted by the Church for a variety of purposes. Birth certificates for proof of age, civil divorce certificates to start an annulment process, drivers licenses to establish identity for hiring purposes, background check results for religious ed teachers, etc. etc. etc.

There is no Catholic form that a person fills out to renounce the faith. Apostasy, heresy and schism are all sins that are conducted through public declarations. In the case of Germany, the declaration can be made to the government via the tax process. There is no reason the Church would not accept that.

The difference is that birth certificates, and licenses are typically accepted by the Church as documents to help people get “in” communion with the Church, where as the German Bishops are using information (not certificates or licenses) to prevent people, or keep people “out” of communion with the Church.

…its backwards.