For German bishops mercy comes at a price, critics charge

[TEPO]

…if anyone doesnt believe that the Catholic Church has the obligation to save as many souls as possible, then they should research the way Jesus and the Apostles went about evangelizing and baptizing just as many souls as they possibly could.

…there is no “safer” path to salvation than the Catholic Church. To think otherwise, that protestantism is a second best, is not reflective of the one holy Catholic and apostolic Church that we represent. And if someone becomes CINO, or less, then thats between them and God.

 

[Corki]

The difference is that birth certificates, and licenses are typically accepted by the Church as documents to help people get “in” communion with the Church, where as the German Bishops are using information (not certificates or licenses) to prevent people, or keep people “out” of communion with the Church.

…its backwards.

But they (the Church) aren’t using them for that purpose. The** individuals **are using the document to declare their separation from the Church. The Church is merely accepting them at their word. The door back into communion with the Church is always open and I am sure the Church would love to have them all back. But you can’t drag someone back into the practice of his/her faith against their will.

 

[saintjohnxxiii]

But they (the Church) aren’t using them for that purpose. The** individuals **are using the document to declare their separation from the Church. The Church is merely accepting them at their word. The door back into communion with the Church is always open and I am sure the Church would love to have them all back. But you can’t drag someone back into the practice of his/her faith against their will.

Except the Church can’t compel a person to donate a specific amount of their money to the Church. However the German Bishops don’t see that. Nevertheless since the practice is still around then Catholics who don’t want to be compelled to give a specific amount of their money to the Church say that they aren’t Catholic. Saying you aren’t Catholic to “Caesar” to avoid paying an illegal and immoral Church tax hardly constitutes apostasy or repudiation of the Faith.

 

[TEPO]

But they (the Church) aren’t using them for that purpose. The** individuals **are using the document to declare their separation from the Church. The Church is merely accepting them at their word. The door back into communion with the Church is always open and I am sure the Church would love to have them all back. But you can’t drag someone back into the practice of his/her faith against their will.

Intent matters. When one commits an immoral act, it becomes a sin only if the act was committed with the knowledge or “intent” to sin.

So it matters too if the people filling out the tax forms intended on simply blocking the government from taxing them, or if they actually intended on seperating themselves from the Church entirely… Also, lets not forget that German Catholics arent given the option to keep secret their religious affiliation, so someone ‘could’ check the box indicating “No Religion” with the sole intent of keeping their privacy. So intentions do matter.

 

[Hobbes42]

Bleehh…

This whole mess is such a good argument by itself for the Church and State being separated in some way.

Since when are donations mandatory? I see nothing in Church law that says that donations are to be collected with government force, at the end of a gun or from a prison cell. (I’m no libertarian, but that is the reality of what taxes are, they aren’t donations, they’re mandatory and required)

Caesar, doesn’t equate to God.

 

[Corki]

Intent matters. When one commits an immoral act, it becomes a sin only if the act was committed with the knowledge or “intent” to sin.

So it matters too if the people filling out the tax forms intended on simply blocking the government from taxing them, or if they actually intended on seperating themselves from the Church entirely… Also, lets not forget that German Catholics arent given the option to keep secret their religious affiliation, so someone ‘could’ check the box indicating “No Religion” with the sole intent of keeping their privacy. So intentions do matter.

Intent matters as it indicates consent and free will when it comes to sin. But it doesn’t change the consequences of the action. If you hit someone with your car, you (hopefully) don’t intent to kill him but he is still going to be dead.

Also, the Church has to abide by the law to the extent that it isn’t immoral. To defraud the government, regardless of reason, and then ALSO try to get the Church to be an accessory to the fraud is gravely immoral.

A similar US example is marriage. A few times a year, someone on CAF, asks why the Church won’t perform a Sacramental marriage and just not get a civil marriage. The Church won’t participate in someone trying to commit tax fraud with marriage.

 

[Dawnia]

My question is how can an infant be an aspostate? Seems it’s not just those who fill out the tax returns that are denied the sacraments, but also the rest of the family as well. Sacraments should not be for sale.

One of the reasons I left the Church when I was younger was because of a priest who during the homily told everyone that if you don’t give at least 10% of your income to the Church, don’t bother coming. So I didn’t bother going after that. Our family was so poor we needed every penny we had just to survive.

 

[Corki]

My question is how can an infant be an aspostate? Seems it’s not just those who fill out the tax returns that are denied the sacraments, but also the rest of the family as well. Sacraments should not be for sale.

.

That should be handled the same as any other couple who wants a child Baptized but who is not practicing the faith. A priest should not deny Baptism but can prudently delay it until there is a well-founded assurance that the child will be raised in the faith. I am almost 100% sure there is a path offered back to the Sacraments for anyone who wishes to pursue it.

 

[Dawnia]

That should be handled the same as any other couple who wants a child Baptized but who is not practicing the faith. A priest should not deny Baptism but can prudently delay it until there is a well-founded assurance that the child will be raised in the faith. I am almost 100% sure there is a path offered back to the Sacraments for anyone who wishes to pursue it.

But, they are denying children Sacraments based solely on what the parents state on a tax form and not what the practice of the parents. It was previously commented because the people are apostates. How can an infant or child too young to pay taxes be an apostate in this case?

 

[CrossofChrist]

Except the Church can’t compel a person to donate a specific amount of their money to the Church.

Syllabus of Errors (the following are rejected):

1. The Church has not the power of using force, nor has she any temporal power, direct or indirect. – Apostolic Letter “Ad Apostolicae,” Aug. 22, 1851.
2. The Church has no innate and legitimate right of acquiring and possessing property. – Allocution “Nunquam fore,” Dec. 15, 1856; Encyclical “Incredibili,” Sept. 7, 1863.

 

[TEPO]

Intent matters as it indicates consent and free will when it comes to sin. But it doesn’t change the consequences of the action. If you hit someone with your car, you (hopefully) don’t intent to kill him but he is still going to be dead.

Also, the Church has to abide by the law to the extent that it isn’t immoral. To defraud the government, regardless of reason, and then ALSO try to get the Church to be an accessory to the fraud is gravely immoral.

A similar US example is marriage. A few times a year, someone on CAF, asks why the Church won’t perform a Sacramental marriage and just not get a civil marriage. The Church won’t participate in someone trying to commit tax fraud with marriage.

This is why Canon Law is not used as a teaching tool for learning what is moral and immoral… We go straight to the Deposit of Faith.

 

[TEPO]

Syllabus of Errors (the following are rejected):

1. The Church has not the power of using force, nor has she any temporal power, direct or indirect. – Apostolic Letter “Ad Apostolicae,” Aug. 22, 1851.
2. The Church has no innate and legitimate right of acquiring and possessing property. – Allocution “Nunquam fore,” Dec. 15, 1856; Encyclical “Incredibili,” Sept. 7, 1863.

Does that mean my Bishop could legitimately demand 95% of my gross wages and i’d have to give it up or i could be thrown into a diocesan prison by force, and be denied the sacraments if the country i lived in offered the Church such authority? Yes, i think it does.

…which is why the man-made laws of the Church are not to guide us on what is, or is not moral. Divine revelation is Truth.

 

[CrossofChrist]

Does that mean my Bishop could legitimately demand 95% of my gross wages and i’d have to give it up or i could be thrown into a diocesan prison by force? Yes, i think it does.

…which is why the man-made laws of the Church are not to guide us on what is, or is not moral.

But what was claimed was the Church can’t exercise temporal authority via a tax. And it certainly can.

If this tax was immoral (along with all the other taxes in Europe), I’m sure something would’ve been done by now, actually probably a LONG time ago.

Perhaps the situation could be better, but its certainly not immoral.

 

[Corki]

But, they are denying children Sacraments based solely on what the parents state on a tax form and not what the practice of the parents. It was previously commented because the people are apostates. How can an infant or child too young to pay taxes be an apostate in this case?

The child is not an apostate but the parents have acted in a way that casts doubt on their intent to raise the children in the faith.

 

[Corki]

This is why Canon Law is not used as a teaching tool for learning what is moral and immoral… We go straight to the Deposit of Faith.

 

[TEPO]

But what was claimed was the Church can’t exercise temporal authority via a tax. And it certainly can.

If this tax was immoral (along with all the other taxes in Europe), I’m sure something would’ve been done by now, actually probably a LONG time ago.

Perhaps the situation could be better, but its certainly not immoral.

The only part that is actually immoral, is the part where the Bishops refuse the sacraments based on their assumptions, without knowing what the “intent” was of the person not claiming his religious affiliation on a tax form. What if he simply wanted to keep his privacy? Is there a canon law that states catholics must tell the State what their religion is?

…this is why the Bishops in Germany are not following Jesus but themselves and socialist ideals.

 

[CrossofChrist]

Can. 1259 The Church can acquire temporal goods by every just means of natural or positive law permitted to others.

Can. 1260 The Church has an innate right to require from the Christian faithful those things which are necessary for the purposes proper to it.

Can. 1262 The faithful are to give support to the Church by responding to appeals and according to the norms issued by the conference of bishops.but themselves and socialist ideals.

And the Catechism also says, “The following are also morally illicit: …tax evasion” (CCC 2409).

 

[Corki]

The only part that is actually immoral, is the part where the Bishops refuse the sacraments based on their assumptions, without knowing what the “intent” was of the person not claiming his religious affiliation on a tax form. What if he simply wanted to keep his privacy? Is there a canon law that states catholics must tell the State what their religion is?

…this is why the Bishops in Germany are not following Jesus but themselves and socialist ideals.

It’s immoral to lie. It’s immoral to dodge taxes and it’s immoral to try to make the Church complicit in those acts.

You don’t need canon law. It’s in the commandments. Lying is immoral. Doing it to keep privacy doesn’t make it right. At best, if the person is suffering from a mental illness, for example, and is excessively paranoid, it might lessen culpability. But it doesn’t mean the Church should participate.

 

[TEPO]

It’s immoral to lie. It’s immoral to dodge taxes and it’s immoral to try to make the Church complicit in those acts.

You don’t need canon law. It’s in the commandments. Lying is immoral. Doing it to keep privacy doesn’t make it right. At best, if the person is suffering from a mental illness, for example, and is excessively paranoid, it might lessen culpability. But it doesn’t mean the Church should participate.

So then you admit, that you believe anyone who chooses to keep private their religious affiluation, is absolutely suffering from a mental illness, and that for that reason, they deserve excommunication from the Church.

…otherwise, you will have to admit that circumstances should be considered before denying tbe sacraments. You cant have both, neither can the Bishops in Germany.

 

[CrossofChrist]

The only part that is actually immoral, is the part where the Bishops refuse the sacraments based on their assumptions, without knowing what the “intent” was of the person not claiming his religious affiliation on a tax form. What if he simply wanted to keep his privacy? Is there a canon law that states catholics must tell the State what their religion is?

Catholics are required to obey their bishops, and if you live in some European countries that entails paying Church taxes.

…this is why the Bishops in Germany are not following Jesus but themselves and socialist ideals.

Actually the reason for the Church tax is to better follow Jesus.

Here’s what Pope Benedict had to say about the Church in Germany’s charitable work (helped in a large way by their Church tax):

The Church in Germany has many social and charitable institutions through which the love of neighbour is practised in ways that bring social benefits and reach to the ends of the earth. At this moment I would like to express my gratitude and appreciation to all those working in Caritas Germany and in other church organizations who give their time and effort generously in voluntary service to the Church.

And it is certainly unsubstantiated that the German bishops are socialist.