For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith...

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

So, to sum this up, I’ll just state what I stated right from the very beginning…

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

I think this passage is warning against those who think ‘their own’ faith will save them. But it is not our own faith which saves us. It is Christ’s faith which saves us.

As the passage clearly states, this faith is not from ourselves. This faith is from God-- through God’s grace. In other words, when Christ is living in us and believing for us, then we are saved through his faith which he shares with us through the Holy Spirit.

I’ve explained this clearly enough to understand. Someone can disagree with this on the basis of the semantics of language, “No, no, no. It’s my own faith which saved me. Look at what the Scriptures say…”

I’m asking you to look at what the Scriptures mean when they say these things. The profound reality is that it’s not our faith which saves us. Period.

The Lord is clear that he is the one who saves. That’s why Jesus is called the Lord and Saviour. Not us.

 

[simbagizmo]

So, to sum this up, I’ll just state what I stated right from the very beginning…

I’ve explained this clearly enough to understand. Someone can disagree with this on the basis of the semantics of language, “No, no, no. It’s my own faith which saved me. Look at what the Scriptures say…”

I’m asking you to look at what the Scriptures mean when they say these things. The profound reality is that it’s not our faith which saves us. Period.

The Lord is clear that he is the one who saves. That’s why Jesus is called the Lord and Saviour. Not us.

I agree that we will disagree on this. Scripture states that a person can and must make a decision to have initial Faith in Jesus, and through this Faith one is Justified. The Holy Spirit enters through one’s Faith and gives the gift of God’s Faith that will sanctify and strengthen through his Christian walk.

Scripture also makes a distinction between the work that Paul is writing about not leading to salvation, and the work Jesus states that one must do to get salvation. Scripture also states people come to Faith without the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I did enjoy our conversation, but I must say, not being disrepectful to you, but this conversation is usually one I have with Protestants that believe very much like you do. Usually I am battling the interpretations of James with Catholics. Hope you feel better.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I agree that we will disagree on this.

Disagreeing with people doesn’t make you right.

simbagizmo:

Scripture states that a person can and must make a decision to have initial Faith in Jesus, and through this Faith one is Justified.

No they don’t. The Scriptures say that it is not through a human decision that they are born of God. It is the Spirit of God working within them that gives birth to the faith in Jesus that they manifest.

simbagizmo:

The Holy Spirit enters through one’s Faith and gives the gift of God’s Faith that will sanctify and strengthen through his Christian walk.

No. The Holy Spirit moves upon the person regardless of whether they believe in God or not.

If they resist the motion of the Holy Spirit, then the Spirit does not enter and they are damned.

If they are moved by the motion of the Holy Spirit, it is because the Holy Spirit has entered them (they’ve been docile to the Spirit) and they are saved.

simbagizmo:

Scripture also makes a distinction between the work that Paul is writing about not leading to salvation, and the work Jesus states that one must do to get salvation.

Could you explain this in more careful detail?

There is a distinction. But I think you’re drawing the distinction in the wrong place.

simbagizmo:

Scripture also states people come to Faith without the gift of the Holy Spirit.

This claim only works if you’re claming that everytime the Scriptures mention “faith”, they have to also mention faith being “the work of the Holy Spirit”.

The Scriptures do not work this way. And you know this.

Regardless, you are claiming to have ‘earned your salvation’ when you claim that you do not need God to enable you to believe. There is no salvation without the Holy Spirit. Faith is listed as a gift of the Holy Spirit along with all the other gifts of the Holy Spirit.

continued…

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

…continued

simbagizmo:

I did enjoy our conversation, but I must say, not being disrepectful to you, but this conversation is usually one I have with Protestants that believe very much like you do.

I’m glad you enjoyed it.

But perhaps you should read this before you jump to conclusions…

Justification by Faith
by Peter Kreeft

But many Catholics to this day have not learned the Catholic and biblical doctrine. They think we are saved by good intentions or being nice or sincere or trying a little harder or doing a sufficient number of good deeds. Over the past twenty-five years I have asked hundreds of Catholic college students the question: If you should die tonight and God asks you why he should let you into heaven, what would you answer? The vast majority of them simply do not know the right answer to this, the most important of all questions, the very essence of Christianity. They usually do not even mention Jesus!

Until we Catholics know the foundation, Protestants are not going to listen to us when we try to teach them about the upper stories of the building. Perhaps God allows the Protestant/Catholic division to persist not only because Protestants have abandoned many precious truths taught by the Church but also because many Catholics have never been taught the most precious truth of all, that salvation is a free gift of grace, accepted by faith. I remember vividly the thrill of discovery when, as a young Protestant at Calvin College, I read Saint Thomas Aquinas and the Council of Trent on justification. I did not find what I had been told I would find, “another gospel” of do-it-yourself salvation by works, but a clear and forceful statement that we can do nothing without God’s grace, and that this grace, accepted by faith, is what saves us.

The split of the Protestant Reformation began when a Catholic discovered a Catholic doctrine in a Catholic book. It can end only when both Protestants and Catholics do the same thing today and understand what they are doing: discovering a Catholic doctrine in a Catholic book.

By the way, I’m still curious as to what denominational background you are, if any?

Either way, I can guarantee you that protestants do not believe very much like I do-- unless you’re trying to explain to me that protestants believe in the communion of the saints within a Catholic perspective, praying for the souls in purgatory, the God-given authority of the pope’s primacy to oversee God’s church, Sacred Traditions, the teaching authoirty of the Magisterium, the distinction between the sacraments and sacramentals, the perpectual virginity of Mary (along with her immaculate conception and her assumption into heaven), just to scratch the surface of some of the differences between many protestant’s theologies and Catholic theology.

simbagizmo:

Usually I am battling the interpretations of James with Catholics. Hope you feel better.

Not really. Read Kreeft’s article and get back to me when you have a chance.

 

[namguy69]

I think this passage is warning against those who think ‘their own’ faith will save them. But it is not our own faith which saves us. It is Christ’s faith which saves us.

As the passage clearly states, this faith is not from ourselves. This faith is from God– through God’s grace. In other words, when Christ is living in us and believing for us, then we are saved through his faith which he shares with us through the Holy Spirit.

AMEN…

 

[simbagizmo]

I’m glad you enjoyed it.

But perhaps you should read this before you jump to conclusions…

Justification by Faith
by Peter Kreeft

I have actually read this several times before, and this is my point. As it states, most Catholics do not understand biblical Faith. For that matter, a lot of Protestants don’t either. But their understands are polar opposites. I stated this in another post, but Catholics and Protestants seem to be so afraid to acknowledge Faith and Works respectively, because of the distain to be associated with each other. Granted not all, but a vast majority.

Most Catholics that I talk, including one on this forum, as so cautious to use the word Grace and Works and not Faith for some anxiety they will be supporting assured salvation.

Protestants are the opposite. They are cautious to use the word “works” for anxiety to be supporting the Catholic teaching of works for salvation.

Here is another article I also brought up on this forum that seemed to be ignored.

catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=18021

By the way, I’m still curious as to what denominational background you are, if any?

I attend a Bible teaching church. I grew up Catholic, baptized, received communion, confirmed, and married. I now attend a Bible teaching independant Church. I believe in Scripture and Faith alone doctrine. I do not classify myself under any organized denomination, but as a Christain.

Either way, I can guarantee you that protestants do not believe very much like I do-- unless you’re trying to explain to me that protestants believe in the communion of the saints within a Catholic perspective, praying for the souls in purgatory, the God-given authority of the pope’s primacy to oversee God’s church, Sacred Traditions, the teaching authoirty of the Magisterium, the distinction between the sacraments and sacramentals, the perpectual virginity of Mary (along with her immaculate conception and her assumption into heaven), just to scratch the surface of some of the differences between many protestant’s theologies and Catholic theology.

I was just talking about this specific topic. Believe me, I understand all the differences. In my conversation with you, your statment that even making a decision to believe is consider work, is the conversation I have with certain protestants. The Protestants I am talking about believe, like you, that if one comes to to Christ, it is not of their choice. They are called and are part of the elect through no decision of action of their own. In essense, they are forced into salvation because they had no choice. Those that choose to reject Christ do so, again not of their own decision, but because God has not called them and they are not part of the elect. Then we talk about, like we have, on whose faith is it, mine or God’s. Then we start the conversation we had.

Not really. Read Kreeft’s article and get back to me when you have a chance.

It is true. as the article states, most Catholics do not understand biblical faith. Which is why I have these discussions. Catholics state salvation is not asssured by Faith. Hebrews 11:1 states “Faith is assurance of things hoped for”. What is the things hoped for? Salvation, being with God. Faith, defined in scripture, is assurance of salvation. If you have Faith, you have assurance.

I

 

[wcknight]

BUT simbagizmo, faith by itself is meaningless. Faith comes from God, but if you do not act on that faith you will not be saved. St. James tells us that faith without works is nothing. Belief in the fact tha Jesus is the Son of God does not get you into Heanven. Even Satan and the demons know this, but they are doomed anyway.

Works without grace doesn’t get you in either but faith without goods works is equally futile.

 

[PattiC]

My perspective on this hasn’t yet been addressed by anyone else yet, that of being on our way to salvation. After all, one is not ultimately “saved” till they reach heaven, is that not so?

God grants us the gift of faith (gift–something given freely).
We can accept or reject that gift.
If we accept, it makes good sense to do what Jesus said about feeding the hungry, visiting the sick, clothing the naked, because if not, when judgement comes, he will say he doesn’t know us. He said that not all that say Lord, Lord will be saved, but those only who DO (action verb) the will of The Father. I’d much rather be in the company of the sheep, not the goats.

Besides all this, it is by Jesus’ death that a new covenant was created, completing the old. In covenat relationship, one member of a covenant must die in order to create a new one. He did that on the Cross by His freely giving totally and completely of Himself, Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity. His dying opened the doors (windows too, cracks as well,) so that Heaven would again be open. For the sin of disobedience and arrogance of our first parents closed shut the doors of Heaven. Jesus opened it by dying and by rising He invites us to rise with Him.

He also told us to be Perfect, as the Heavenly Father is Perfect. Of course, none of us could dream of doing that without the Holy Spirit directing us (Grace again). And BE*** is ***an action verb.

If we are to imitate Him, why all this discord?

And why this argument over faith vs. works.

The word ALONE is used in James when he said that
Not by faith aloneare we saved… If it were not for a
re-translation of Holy Scriptures, would we be in this predicament at all?

Beleiving in His Grace, and hopeful that I will in perseverence respond to it,
Patti

 

[Pug]

In case if no one has said so on another thread, welcome to the boards, Patti.

If we are to imitate Him, why all this discord?

Yes, that is a question.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I have actually read this several times before, and this is my point. As it states, most Catholics do not understand biblical Faith. For that matter, a lot of Protestants don’t either.

But you do, right?

simbagizmo:

But their understands are polar opposites.

Actually, there not as polarized as you’re making them out to be. There are many aspects of some protestants theology that does readilly agree with Catholicism. There are differences, but they are not as extreme differences as some make them out to be. I’m also fairly confident that the Spirit is bringing many groups toward reconciliation.

simbagizmo:

I stated this in another post, but Catholics and Protestants seem to be so afraid to acknowledge Faith and Works respectively, because of the distain to be associated with each other. Granted not all, but a vast majority.

Most Catholics that I talk, including one on this forum, as so cautious to use the word Grace and Works and not Faith for some anxiety they will be supporting assured salvation.

Protestants are the opposite. They are cautious to use the word “works” for anxiety to be supporting the Catholic teaching of works for salvation.

I think this is overly generalizing when one is talking about those who actualy make the effort to engage in apologetics for their faith.

It’s one thing to say that people who don’t take their faith seriously often do not understand what their faith actually teaches. This phenomenon is fairly common, as the link I posted noted.

But it’s another thing entirely to claim that those who actually understand their faith do not actually express it well. Many Protestants and Catholics understand what they beleive. And I would also argue that they can defend their faith quite well with sound arguments-- even if we don’t agree with each other on what the most important premises of our armuments are.

simbagizmo:

Here is another article I also brought up on this forum that seemed to be ignored.

catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=18021

I’ve read that one before too. I’ll come back to it.

I’d like to get back to your misunderstanding of the Catholic position before I come back to this-- so it won’t be ignored much longer.

continued…

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

…continued

simbagizmo:

I attend a Bible teaching church. I grew up Catholic, baptized, received communion, confirmed, and married. I now attend a Bible teaching independant Church. I believe in Scripture and Faith alone doctrine. I do not classify myself under any organized denomination, but as a Christain.

ie., non-denominational?

simbagizmo:

I was just talking about this specific topic. Believe me, I understand all the differences.

That’s good. I just wanted to make my own position clear on this matter.

simbagizmo:

In my conversation with you, your statment that even making a decision to believe is consider work, is the conversation I have with certain protestants. The Protestants I am talking about believe, like you, that if one comes to to Christ, it is not of their choice. They are called and are part of the elect through no decision of action of their own. In essense, they are forced into salvation because they had no choice.

No. They believe because that’s the way God made them from the beginning-- it’s what we were created to do. I gave examples above of the right hook, Hurrican Katrina and the tsunamis as extreme examples of things being thrust upon them regardless of what they ‘decided’ to do.

But taking a more relaxed tone, one could also look at a lightbulb for example and see the same dynamics without invoking violent force in the process. In other words, the lightbulb is created specifically for the purpose to give light. However, without electricity, the light bulb gives off no light. The same could be said for humanity too-- we were created by God to praise God by the power of God. There’s nothing unscriptural about this either.

But let’s come to the flip side of the argument…

simbagizmo:

Those that choose to reject Christ do so, again not of their own decision, but because God has not called them and they are not part of the elect.

Whoa, whoa, whoa…hold on a moment there.

I never said anything about God not calling anybody. In fact, he calls everybody– and has been calling everybody from the very beginning.

For example, as 1 Timothy 2:4 notes, God our Savior wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

And, as Acts 17:26-27 clearly points out…

From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.

simbagizmo:

Then we talk about, like we have, on whose faith is it, mine or God’s. Then we start the conversation we had.

You’re really not understanding what I’m saying, are you?

Before you continue to jump to conclusions, I’ll note the distinction between the ‘standard argument’ you’re presenting as my point-of-view and what I’m actually claming are two different things.

I’ve never said that God doesn’t call anybody. This is the incorrect distinction that I think you’re drawing from my words. Contrary to your claim, I’ve always maintained that God has called everyone from the beginning.

simbagizmo:

It is true. as the article states, most Catholics do not understand biblical faith. Which is why I have these discussions. Catholics state salvation is not asssured by Faith. Hebrews 11:1 states “Faith is assurance of things hoped for”. What is the things hoped for? Salvation, being with God. Faith, defined in scripture, is assurance of salvation. If you have Faith, you have assurance.

Yes. And faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit. Therefore faith is the manifestation of the Holy Spirit indwelling you, just like all the other gifts of the Spirit.

It’s like the lightbulb giving off light by the power fed into it, just as the lightbulb was created to do.

Don’t you realize that we are a new creation in Christ?

But who are you, O man, to talk back to God?

Shall what is formed say to him who formed it,

Why did you make me like this?

Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

What exactly are you disagreeing with here?

Are you actually saying that man can enable God to save him by believing in him-- and that this belief in God comes independently of God’s grace, coming from within man, solely by man’s free-will to choose to believe in what God has offered?

 

[PattiC]

Why, thank you Pug!..

Sure is nice to be here, backatcha.
And it is wonderful to be able to “speak” about our Faith, what a great site this is…

Greetings to Mr. K as well as all the
Forum Moderators

 

[Vincent]

Here is another article I also brought up on this forum that seemed to be ignored.

catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=18021

That’s a summary of Fr. Raniero Cantalamessa’s 3rd Advent Sermon, which he gave almost a year ago to Pope Benedict and the Curia. The complete text is here:

“The Righteousness That Comes From Faith in Christ”

• Part I
• Part II

 

[simbagizmo]

I really enjoy this discussion, but I think we are all talking around each other, because we have different understanding of words used, such as Faith, Grace, and Works as used in scripture. Can we start this thing over again, but taking each word and getting a agreement on what is meant by it.

Mr. Ex Nihilo, I am sorry for mischaracterizing your position. I really think this is the cause. So, with everyones permission, I would like to start this again by defining Faith using Hebrews 11:1

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

If you do not mind, let’s start off with this first phrase: “Faith is the assurance of things hoped for”.

Can we agree that the “things hoped for” here is talking about being with God in heaven, salvation? Since this is the things hoped for by Christians.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I really enjoy this discussion, but I think we are all talking around each other, because we have different understanding of words used, such as Faith, Grace, and Works as used in scripture. Can we start this thing over again, but taking each word and getting a agreement on what is meant by it.

That’s fine with me. It’s just that I’m not actually disagreeing with you on many points.

You’re defining what faith is. And I actually don’t disagree with your definition-- something which you’ve presented many times already.

What I’m defining is the source of where this faith comes from-- and I think you actually do agree with me on this matter.

In other words, your argument so far seems to be mainly focused on the proper distinction in regards to the possession of faith in contrast to my arguments which question where this faith is actually coming from to begin with.

Do you see the difference?

simbagizmo:

Mr. Ex Nihilo, I am sorry for mischaracterizing your position. I really think this is the cause.

Maybe so. But it’s not unexpected for people to misunderstand each other’s ideas, especially over the internet.

I just need to make this clear that I’m not arguing for a Calvinistic double-predestination. Neither am I arguing for an irresistable grace either-- because I’ve made it clear that this grace can easilly be resisted when people sin. I’ve always maintained that God has given us the free-will to reject his grace.

As I said before, I never said anything about God not calling anybody. In fact, he calls everybody-- and has been calling everybody from the very beginning.

I think many people make the mistake that just because someone is not saved then this means that God did not call them. But it doesn’t. There are many examples of God calling people, such as Balaam, Saul, and Judas Iscariot, who all inevitably rejected God’s call with extremely serious negative spiritual implications.

I think these kinds of examples are the people who God describes as such…

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

In short, because they’ve sinned and hardened their heart against God, they’ve effectively blasphemed the Holy Spirit and are guilty of an eternal sin which will never be forgiven- never forgiven specifically because they’ve refused to allow the Spirit to move them to repentence.

simbagizmo:

So, with everyones permission, I would like to start this again by defining Faith using Hebrews 11:1

But I don’t disagree with this. Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

And, as Psalm 62:5 says, “Find rest, O my soul, in God alone; my hope comes from him.”

As Romans 5:5, and hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

And again…
Romans 15:13:

May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.

simbagizmo:

If you do not mind, let’s start off with this first phrase: “Faith is the assurance of things hoped for”.

But I don’t disagree with this. I’ve never disagreed with this definition. I’ve only argued where the source of this assurance comes from. It doesn’t come from man. It’s comes from God.

simbagizmo:

Can we agree that the “things hoped for” here is talking about being with God in heaven, salvation? Since this is the things hoped for by Christians.

Yes. But hope can certainly be extended to include many things which God gives in order to bring someone to the kingdom of heaven too. Likewise, Jesus himself said the kingdom of heaven was amongst them.

Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?”

We’re not bringing heaven to God. God is bringing heaven to us.

 

[santaro75]

Great debate. two thoughts on the subject…

Would if the christian world didn’t do any deeds but only had a faith in God for their salvation. What good is that to God?

*Matt21 Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went over to it, but found nothing on it except leaves. And he said to it, “May no fruit ever come from you again.” And immediately the fig tree withered. *

MATT7 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

REV20 I saw the dead, the great and the lowly, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. Then another scroll was opened, the book of life. The dead were judged according to their deeds, by what was written in the scrolls.

Mt25 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.

My second thought is that good works often are not what you want to do. If you believe them not necessary it is easy to get out of not doing them. but the example of Jesus…

Matt26 He advanced a little and fell prostrate in prayer, saying, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from me; yet, not as I will, but as you will.”

Point being he didn’t want to do this deed but he chose the will of the Father and not his own. I think this is a very good example he left for us in the Gospel about faith and works. Without works i believe your faith is worthless. So Faith is first, then God will give you works to do. If you dont’ do them then you are worthless to God and I believe that Is written all over the bible.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Great debate. two thoughts on the subject…

Would if the christian world didn’t do any deeds but only had a faith in God for their salvation. What good is that to God?

*Matt21 Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went over to it, but found nothing on it except leaves. And he said to it, “May no fruit ever come from you again.” And immediately the fig tree withered. *

MATT7 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

REV20 I saw the dead, the great and the lowly, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. Then another scroll was opened, the book of life. The dead were judged according to their deeds, by what was written in the scrolls.

Mt25 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.

That’s what I’m saying too. But if the person is doing good works, then these works are a manifestation of the Lord Spirit’s moving them to do so.

The Works of Mercy

The Corporal Works of Mercy
To feed the hungry
To give drink to the thirsty.
To clothe the naked.
To visit and ransom the captives.
To shelter the homeless.
To visit the sick.
To bury the dead.

The Spiritual Works of Mercy
To admonish sinners.
To instruct the ignorant.
To counsel the doubtful.
To comfort the sorrowful.
To bear wrongs patiently.
To forgive all injuries.
To pray for the living and the dead.

All these things, provided they are authentic motions of the Holy Spirit, come by the Spirit of the Lord moving upon them. Since we are only human, we cannot say for sure (without spiritual discernment) whether someone comforting the sorrowful for example is really being moved the Spirit to do so or not. The person may be doing this work for mercy for reasons that are entirely selfish and not motivated by God-- and yet God could certainly still use their actions to bring about a greater good (even though the person doing so may not have intended it for good).

santaro75:

My second thought is that good works often are not what you want to do. If you believe them not necessary it is easy to get out of not doing them. but the example of Jesus…

Matt26 He advanced a little and fell prostrate in prayer, saying, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from me; yet, not as I will, but as you will.”

Point being he didn’t want to do this deed but he chose the will of the Father and not his own. I think this is a very good example he left for us in the Gospel about faith and works. Without works i believe your faith is worthless. So Faith is first, then God will give you works to do. If you dont’ do them then you are worthless to God and I believe that Is written all over the bible.

As a fellow Catholic, I generally tend to agree with you.

But, just out of curiousity, what about baptized infants?

Are baptized infants able to manifest the works of the Holy Spirit?

I tend to think not. And yet I have also no doubt that baptized infants are saved by God even though they do not necessarilly manifest the works of the Holy Spirit.

I supppose the same thing could be asked about the mentally handicapped-- insofar as they may be unable to manifest the works of the Holy Spirit for reasons solely outside their own ability.

I think works are the manifestation of God’s Spirit moving the believer. But not all are equipped to the same degree-- and some certainly have more works of the Spirit than others do. In other words, I don’t think God expects anything beyond what he has enabled us to do.
1 Corinthians 10:13:

No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

 

[namguy69]

Then why does the Faith Alone doctrine states that one must receive the gift of salvation by putting their faith in Jesus Christ alone for their salvation?

This is claiming for someone to have ‘done something’ to earn their salvation regardless of how it is worded. But we don’t chose God. God chooses us. We’re not placing our faith in anything. God is placing his faith in us.

The proper formula, in order to avoid the conclusion that we’ve ‘done anything’ to earn our salvation, is to state that humanity has ‘done nothing’ to earn its salvation.

Therefore, what can we do to earn our salvation?

Answer: Nothing.

In fact, we have to do nothing to earn our salvation-- because the Lord has prepared in advance the paths that we are to walk in solely by his grace.

As soon as we try to do something on our own, we end up messing up our salvation-- which is exactly what Adam and Eve did. It is only when we do nothing that we are open to God’s Spirit and God uses our souls as instruments to magnify the Lord solely by his grace-- which is exactly what Mary and our Lord did.

We brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. The heavens and the earth were made from nothing. And Jesus likewise made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

Only through Jesus Christ are we forgiven our sins and saved…

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Only through Jesus Christ are we forgiven our sins and saved…

Exactly.

 

[santaro75]

Are baptized infants able to manifest the works of the Holy Spirit?

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I think that Works are signs of devotion to God but are necessary because they show abandonement of ones selfish will for the Will of God your Father. So there isn’t this legalistic attitude of what is required for salvation except that you are doing the will of God. I don’t think that works are like coins in a soda machine. They show the state of your soul and relatinoship with God. If you profess faith and have no works it is just a profession and not really devotion or obedience. ONLY God knows your heart.

As for the Babies, I believe that they have no sin of their own before the age of reasoning. But baptism washes the guilt for original sin thereby making them pure before God. I dont’ know what works that God is having them do as a child and I don’t believe they necessarily have faith the way we understand it either.

great question. i don’t clearly have an answer.