and i don’t think it’s a stretch. the ritual comes from the passages of “taking up our crosses” and “being crucified with Christ”. the ritual is born out of a literal reading of scripture. if the church officially “frowns” on this ritual and this catholic group believed that the church and scripture were equal, they would stop the ritual. but it looks as if they see scripture as higher.
It’s totally incomparable to supposed “divisions” within Catholicism, as Catholicism is still institutionally One. I know you agree with me on that, at least.
Do you have an answer to the question? Why are you asking me questions on quotes from Church Fathers?
) on various subjects. It IS cross-referenced heavily to Scripture and Traditional Church documents that are infallible .I disagree. One is more divided but the division is quite real.
i would think the reason he uses those quotes is to show that even the ECF (at least some of them) believed and taught the primacy and sufficiency of scripture.
traditional church documents not included in the canon are NOT infallible and are not considered so even by the RCC.To clarify to some about the Catechism…the Catechism “itself” is not considered a doctrine or teaching…it should be seen as more of the pedigree of an index, providing useful summaries of God’s truth (via Scripture & Tradition
How does it contradict?
It is not the mindset of any group to find the “least we can do” approach to Christianity. Even the liberals are operating under a premise they are fulfilling the message of Christ in their emphasis on social justice.
Not all of them no. But many are, such as those I listed in Ludwig Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, which I don’t have in front of me. I understand you would not consider an infallible statement by the Pope to be infallible, for instance, but that’s not my point in this thread.
I would hope not…but then saying Tradition is not “needed” would belie that, so I can only assume some people DO want the least possible. Or they just want to try to come up with a reason to discard Tradition.
You have stayed consistent with Luthernism- you avoid the questions with a question or statement different from the one asked so I will ask again: where in “Sola Scriptura” can you show me orders given from Jesus to Martin Luther " I will remove the Keys to the Kingdom from Peter and his successors and give them over to you and along the way preach the scriptures are superior to the Church; the one I gave myself up for". Please stick to the thread and question as I have consistently been able to do.
Well, that would be nice…but of course it begs the question as to whether that poster is going to just be selective with ECF or just try to score a debate point. Because to go the route of the ECF is to go Catholic.
I do not think that is the only reasonable assumption.I would hope not…but then saying Tradition is not “needed” would belie that, so I can only assume some people DO want the least possible. Or they just want to try to come up with a reason to discard Tradition.
Then please answer why would you not be apart of the Church that Jesus gave the keys of the Kingdom to? In the council of Nicea in A.D. 325 there was only one Church i.e., One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. These are the 4 marks of the Church developed from Holy Scriptures. I know the Lutheren community believes in this Creed but you have to ask yourself is it justified to leave the Church founded by Christ and start a new one that is completely against the scriptures that started this thread. show me in the scriptures where we as christians can go against “Mother Church”- the one the gates of hell will not prevail against with “Sola Scriptura” theology that “Mother Church” has never taught.
Well, the OP welcomes you to offer your reasoning. That is the whole point of this thread.
Non Catholics please respond with scripture this thread I have posted.
This would be essentially the New Testament and not any other doctrines or practices developed by the catholic church centuries later. Correct?
When that church teaches doctrines contrary to the scriptures. There are many doctrines that “Mother Church” teaches not grounded in Scripture.
How can you say that the Roman catholic church is the same as the NT church when they are not even identical in structure, doctrines and practices?