Forgiveness FAQ

[Socrates4Jesus]

We are just going in circles here.

We can forgive “like” God in that it is free and undiserved.

We can not forgive “the same way” God does because we are not God.

Let me try me one more time.

If I ask your forgiveness how do you know I’ve actually repented?
Perhaps I’m only trying to trick you into granting your forgiveness to avoid the punishment associated with the offense.

God can you tell the difference? We cannot. Why would God place an unverifyable requirement on our granting of forgiveness?

There are plenty of places in scripture where we are told to forgive and not to judge and no requirement is stipulated.

It is in my best interest that I forive someone, it is an act of Charity, an act of Love. I am not commanded to withhold an act of love from anyone until they do “X”.

I may chose not to perform that act but why would that be a good thing in any way?

Chuck

Chuck

Chuck, Chuck, have you not read what Jesus said? Please consider each word and what the meaning of that word is:

“… If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.”
(Luke 17:3)
Please tell me, what does “if he repents” mean?

 

[mikeledes]

Please, Michael, open your eyes (if you have eyes to see) and understand that Jesus is not telling us to never hold a person responsible for her sin.

Last time I checked, Soc, I have eyes to see and they are pretty open. But I will forgive this comment. When Jesus is talking about judging, he is talking about judging a person’s spiritual standing before God and judging their motives. As James clearly states, there is only ONE JUDGE.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Last time I checked, Soc, I have eyes to see and they are pretty open. But I will forgive this comment. When Jesus is talking about judging, he is talking about judging a person’s spiritual standing before God and judging their motives. As James clearly states, there is only ONE JUDGE.

God Bless,
Michael

Yes, i can see that Michael. Jesus is the only one who will come again to judge the living and the dead. Judging whether a person should have eternal life is not the kind of judging about which i am asking, however. I want to know what you think Jesus meant when he said

“… If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.”(Luke 17:3)
I’m sure your eyes see the words, “if he repents” but are you really paying attention to these words, or are you ignoring them? If you do have eyes to see them, please tell me what they mean to you.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Q. # 5. Does anyone have an opinion as to what Jesus meant in Luke 17:3-4?

*“So watch yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.” *

 

[mlldrl]

Hey, Michael (still love that name), good to see your posts, again!

Different Michael.

 

[Greg27]

I have encountered this situation myself. In one case, a friend left me after we had a bad argument, but she came back later apologising for her mistake and asking for forgiveness. I’ve also had arguments with friends but I’ve apologised if I have hurt them in any way and entreat them to forgive me. So long as someone comes with a contrite heart then I have no trouble forgiving them, even if their sins in my eyes against me were very considerable. In the end, the only way a person truely loses my own love if they had it was to reject it completely and never want it back. I think this reasonably reflects God’s mercy towards people, which is always overflowing in abundance unless one says a total, final and complete no to it forever.

 

[mikeledes]

Q. # 5. Does anyone have an opinion as to what Jesus meant in Luke 17:3-4?

*“So watch yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.” *

What is the point you are trying to make? That we should only forgive those who repent of their offense against us?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Randy_Carson]

RC:

If none, then why did our Lord Jesus teach us the following?

Jesus said to his disciples: "Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin. So watch yourselves.

“If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”

(Luke 17:1-4)
What condition does He say someone must meet before you and i forgive her?

I think I am focused on you more than him or her.

I think we do well to forgive the injuries and offenses done to us by others REGARDLESS of whether they repent or not.

Repentance heals them. Forgiveness heals us. I can only control the latter.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Foxfire2]

I haven’t read this entire thread, but have been looking for a thread such as this to help in figuring out a family situation that I have a thread about. I look forward to reading this thread.

My question comes from 1 Corinthians 5.
It appears to me that Christians are to judge other Christians by their fruit. We are not to judge non-Christians however for they know not what they do. The purpose in “judging” Christians is so that we can separate ourselves from them - so they don’t cause other Christians to stumble - and as a step to help the fallen brother’s reconciliation to God.

We are to forgive, but we are to separate until the fallen brother is reconciled.

Is that how you read that passage?

If I’m going down a different path than this thread was intended, please let me know and I will delete my question.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Different Michael.

Yes. The other Michael and i had some good dialog in the “Has Eternal Life?” discussion thread.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I have encountered this situation myself. In one case, a friend left me after we had a bad argument, but she came back later apologising for her mistake and asking for forgiveness. I’ve also had arguments with friends but I’ve apologised if I have hurt them in any way and entreat them to forgive me. So long as someone comes with a contrite heart then I have no trouble forgiving them, even if their sins in my eyes against me were very considerable. In the end, the only way a person truely loses my own love if they had it was to reject it completely and never want it back. I think this reasonably reflects God’s mercy towards people, which is always overflowing in abundance unless one says a total, final and complete no to it forever.

Well said, Greg! I believe Jesus is saying exactly the same thing in Luke 17.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

What is the point you are trying to make? That we should only forgive those who repent of their offense against us?

God Bless,
Michael

Michael:

Well, one point i’m trying to make is that sometimes you and i do not really understand Jesus the way we think we do. I might read one quote spoken by him on forgiveness and think i have it all figured out. The truth i have found, however, is that i really cannot be certain i understand Him until i listen to everything He has to say on a subject.

Take our beloved Redeemer’s words spoken as He suffered on the cross

*Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” …**(Luke 23:34)*I might read this and say to myself, “Self, isn’t Jesus saying i should only forgive those who are ignorant of their sin, but no one else?” If i were to hold this belief, i would be making a grave mistake, for i might never forgive someone who repents. I would hope you, Michael, would gently and respectfully tell me what an unforgiving arse i would have become!

The question to ask Jesus when you and i read every command is why? "Why, Jesus, should the Father forgive those who mocked you, spit on you, beat you about the face until you were hardly recognizable, whipped your back with a cat of nine tails that ripped your flesh until it resembled quivering hamburger, nailed you to a cross, and forced you to continually rip open the wounds on your back as you pulled yourself up on the nails through your wrists just so you could exhale and take another breath? "

Jesus’ answer to the question why: “for they do not know what they are doing.” That is, the condition that these Roman executioners met was that they did not know they were doing wrong. So, the Father forgave them this one sin (though their other sins would not have been forgiven unless they repented and put their trust in the sacrificial death of Christ).

Then i read Luke 17:3-4, where Jesus says

*“So watch yourselves. **If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”*and i have this kind of conversation with Christ as i think this through:

Soc. Why should i forgive my Christian brother, Jesus? Jesus. Because he repents, for i said that “if he repents, forgive him.” Soc. But didn’t you say i should forgive only those who don’t know what they are doing is wrong?Jesus. Yes, you should forgive them, but not only them. You should forgive everyone who meets the conditions for you to forgive them.Soc. You mean, if a person is ignorant of her sin, she has met the condition for me to forgive her?Jesus. Yes.Soc. And you also mean that if a person is not ignorant of her sin, yet she sincerely repents, i should forgive her?Jesus. Yes. Soc. So, forgiveness is not unconditional, it’s conditional?Jesus. Yes, it’s conditional. But if you love me, you will do what i command. And my command to you, Soc, is that you love others as much as i love you. I have a question for you, Soc.Soc. Ask me anything, Lord.Jesus. Do you love me?Soc. Honestly?Jesus. Of course!Soc. I really don’t know. I mean, i want to love you. I just don’t think i have it in me to love you by loving others as much as you love me. But i will try. Will you help me?Jesus. Of course i will! Lets start with forgiving her. Is she ignorant of her sin?Soc. No, she knows what she did is wrong. Jesus. Has she repented of her sin?Soc. She says she has, but i don’t know if i believer her. I think she might be sincere. Are you saying i should give her another chance?Jesus. How many other chances have i given you?Soc. Good point. Please pray for me.Jesus. I already have, and i will continue to do so. {PAUSE AS SOC THINKS} Soc?Soc. Yes?Jesus. I love you.Soc. I know. Father, help me love others half as much as you love me. Teach me to do so not by might, nor by power, but by your Spirit.Jesus. Amen.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… I think we do well to forgive the injuries and offenses done to us by others REGARDLESS of whether they repent or not. …

I think your disagreement is with Jesus, RC, and not so much with me. Didn’t He say “if he repents, forgive him”?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I haven’t read this entire thread, but have been looking for a thread such as this to help in figuring out a family situation that I have a thread about. I look forward to reading this thread.

My question comes from 1 Corinthians 5.
It appears to me that Christians are to judge other Christians by their fruit. We are not to judge non-Christians however for they know not what they do. The purpose in “judging” Christians is so that we can separate ourselves from them - so they don’t cause other Christians to stumble - and as a step to help the fallen brother’s reconciliation to God.

We are to forgive, but we are to separate until the fallen brother is reconciled.

Is that how you read that passage?

If I’m going down a different path than this thread was intended, please let me know and I will delete my question.

You chose an excellent example, Fox! Whenever i have trouble understanding something new, i always ask someone to give me an example to which i can apply the new idea to see if it fits. Lets look at 1 Corinthians 5 and see if St. Paul was advocating forgiveness or withholding forgiveness:

• 1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father’s wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. *
• 6Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? 7Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth. *
• 9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. ** 12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”*
  What does everyone think? Is excommunicating a member of a church forgiving, or withholding forgiveness?

Lets say this wicked man, who was having an affair with his mother-in-law, said to the bishops who decided to excommunicate him, “Don’t expel me; please forgive me!” How should they have answered the man, then?

 

[JaneFrances]

You chose an excellent example, Fox! Whenever i have trouble understanding something new, i always ask someone to give me an example to which i can apply the new idea to see if it fits. Lets look at 1 Corinthians 5 and see if St. Paul was advocating forgiveness or withholding forgiveness. . .

What does everyone think? Is excommunicating a member of a church forgiving, or withholding forgiveness?

Lets say this wicked man, who was having an affair with his mother-in-law, said to the bishops who decided to excommunicate him, “Don’t expel me; please forgive me!” How should they have answered the man, then?

This is a very interesting case in point not only concerning forgiveness, but also authority.

Yes, as Socrates4Jesus has pointed out, St. Paul instructs, by his episcopal authority, the Corinthians to expel a certain man from their church community because of his sinful behavior. St. Paul tells the people how to discipline this certain offender.

Before we go any further, however, one must understand the nature of excommunication. From newadvent.com:

Excommunication (Latin ex, out of, and communio or communicatio, communion – exclusion from the communion), the principal and severest censure, is a medicinal, spiritual penalty that deprives the guilty Christian of all participation in the common blessings of ecclesiastical society. Being a penalty, it supposes guilt; and being the most serious penalty that the Church can inflict, it naturally supposes a very grave offence. It is also a medicinal rather than a vindictive penalty, being intended, not so much to punish the culprit, as to correct him and bring him back to the path of righteousness. It necessarily, therefore, contemplates the future, either to prevent the recurrence of certain culpable acts that have grievous external consequences, or, more especially, to induce the delinquent to satisfy the obligations incurred by his offence.

But we must not stop there. The story continues in 2 Corinthians 2: 5-11:

5If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you, to some extent—not to put it too severely. 6The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient for him. 7Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8I urge you, therefore, to reaffirm your love for him. 9The reason I wrote you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything. 10If you forgive anyone, I also forgive him. And what I have forgiven—if there was anything to forgive—I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake, 11in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes.

Here, St. Paul, for the benefit of the offender and the edification of the community at large, instructs that this man should now be welcomed back after a time of chastening. We have absolutely no indication that this offender has asked for forgiveness or that he has formally repented. Instead, St. Paul seems to be taking a merciful and preemptive measure to prevent this man from being “overwhelmed by excessive sorrow.” One may certainly presume that the man must have made some sort of effort towards amending his state, but Scriptures simply do not indicate that he has appealed to St. Paul or the Corinthians for forgiveness. Creating a doctrinal/moral position, which supposes repentence as an absolute prerequisite for forgiveness, can not be supported by this Scriptural text.

It also appears, from the text, that St. Paul’s act of forgiveness is motivated by his love for the community and his concern for them as he explains: “what I have forgiven. . .I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake.” St. Paul is very clear that is not indicative of a response to repentance, but an act of charity, mercy, and communal healing.

 

[mikeledes]

Michael:

Well, one point i’m trying to make is that sometimes you and i do not really understand Jesus the way we think we do. I might read one quote spoken by him on forgiveness and think i have it all figured out. The truth i have found, however, is that i really cannot be certain i understand Him until i listen to everything He has to say on a subject.

Take our beloved Redeemer’s words spoken as He suffered on the cross

*Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” …**(Luke 23:34)*I might read this and say to myself, “Self, isn’t Jesus saying i should only forgive those who are ignorant of their sin, but no one else?” If i were to hold this belief, i would be making a grave mistake, for i might never forgive someone who repents. I would hope you, Michael, would gently and respectfully tell me what an unforgiving arse i would have become!

The question to ask Jesus when you and i read every command is why? "Why, Jesus, should the Father forgive those who mocked you, spit on you, beat you about the face until you were hardly recognizable, whipped your back with a cat of nine tails that ripped your flesh until it resembled quivering hamburger, nailed you to a cross, and forced you to continually rip open the wounds on your back as you pulled yourself up on the nails through your wrists just so you could exhale and take another breath? "

Jesus’ answer to the question why: “for they do not know what they are doing.” That is, the condition that these Roman executioners met was that they did not know they were doing wrong. So, the Father forgave them this one sin (though their other sins would not have been forgiven unless they repented and put their trust in the sacrificial death of Christ).

Then i read Luke 17:3-4, where Jesus says

*“So watch yourselves. **If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”*and i have this kind of conversation with Christ as i think this through:

Soc. Why should i forgive my Christian brother, Jesus? Jesus. Because he repents, for i said that “if he repents, forgive him.” Soc. But didn’t you say i should forgive only those who don’t know what they are doing is wrong?Jesus. Yes, you should forgive them, but not only them. You should forgive everyone who meets the conditions for you to forgive them.Soc. You mean, if a person is ignorant of her sin, she has met the condition for me to forgive her?Jesus. Yes.Soc. And you also mean that if a person is not ignorant of her sin, yet she sincerely repents, i should forgive her?Jesus. Yes. Soc. So, forgiveness is not unconditional, it’s conditional?Jesus. Yes, it’s conditional. But if you love me, you will do what i command. And my command to you, Soc, is that you love others as much as i love you. I have a question for you, Soc.Soc. Ask me anything, Lord.Jesus. Do you love me?Soc. Honestly?Jesus. Of course!Soc. I really don’t know. I mean, i want to love you. I just don’t think i have it in me to love you by loving others as much as you love me. But i will try. Will you help me?Jesus. Of course i will! Lets start with forgiving her. Is she ignorant of her sin?Soc. No, she knows what she did is wrong. Jesus. Has she repented of her sin?Soc. She says she has, but i don’t know if i believer her. I think she might be sincere. Are you saying i should give her another chance?Jesus. How many other chances have i given you?Soc. Good point. Please pray for me.Jesus. I already have, and i will continue to do so. {PAUSE AS SOC THINKS} Soc?Soc. Yes?Jesus. I love you.Soc. I know. Father, help me love others half as much as you love me. Teach me to do so not by might, nor by power, but by your Spirit.Jesus. Amen.

So we should forgive only those who have repented of their sin against us? So if someone someone offends me and they fully know that what they did was wrong, I should withhold forgiveness and hold it against them? What does forgiveness mean, Soc?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[JaneFrances]

So we should forgive only those who have repented of their sin against us? So if someone someone offends me and they fully know that what they did was wrong, I should withhold forgiveness and hold it against them? What does forgiveness mean, Soc?

God Bless,
Michael

Great point, Mike. It does beg the essential question–is forgiveness A) a free act of grace or is it B) an obligatory response to a prescribed action?

 

[JaneFrances]

It seems that Socrates4Jesus, who may certainly clarify if he disagrees, contends that forgiveness is necessarily conditional. If Socrates4Jesus is correct, then forgiveness, in essence, is a debt paid to us for a work performed.

On the other hand, it seems as though many others believe that forgiveness is an unconditional act of mercy.

If the latter proves the more truthful position, then we can properly understand repentance and penance as free responses to grace.

Perhaps, is this the more accurate Scriptural portrayal of forgiveness? Christ’s Cross resulting in redemption is the source of the grace which prompts us and makes it possible for us to seek reconciliation through repentance and penance.

In truth, it is perfectly plausible in the scheme of salvation that our Lord would lovingly extend his free gift of forgiveness to all mankind and one could still refuse that grace. This is the mystery of freedom and unthinkable mercy and justice.

In the case of the Prodigal Son, for instance, would one assume that the loving Father withheld his forgiveness until the son returns and asks for it? OR, did the Father mercifully forgive his son even as he walked away with purses filled and back turned?

Let us note the sequence of events:

The Parable of the Lost Son
11Jesus continued: "There was a man who had two sons. 12The younger one said to his father, ‘Father, give me my share of the estate.’ So he divided his property between them.
13"Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. 14After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.

17"When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.’ 20So he got up and went to his father.
**"But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him. **
21"The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.[a]’

22"But the father said to his servants, 'Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet.

The Father’s joyful and loving reception of the Son does not indicate that he has withheld forgiveness until the Son asks for it, as he runs to him even before a word is spoken between them.

Instead, we have a picture of forgiveness awaiting repentence and reconciliation with hope and love.

NOW, to be sure, full healing and reconciliation can not be realized without repentence and penance, but we simply have no Scriptural dictate which requires forgiveness to be withheld. Instead, the Father’s heart is primed for reconciliation through his own act of forgiveness.

In the philosophical terms, the pragmatism of our Creator can never be overestimated.

 

[mlldrl]

Yes. The other Michael and i had some good dialog in the “Has Eternal Life?” discussion thread.

He must have more patience than I do.

M

 

[Foxfire2]

This is a very interesting case in point not only concerning forgiveness, but also authority.

Yes, as Socrates4Jesus has pointed out, St. Paul instructs, by his episcopal authority, the Corinthians to expel a certain man from their church community because of his sinful behavior. St. Paul tells the people how to discipline this certain offender.

Before we go any further, however, one must understand the nature of excommunication. From newadvent.com:

But we must not stop there. The story continues in 2 Corinthians 2: 5-11:

Here, St. Paul, for the benefit of the offender and the edification of the community at large, instructs that this man should now be welcomed back after a time of chastening. We have absolutely no indication that this offender has asked for forgiveness or that he has formally repented. Instead, St. Paul seems to be taking a merciful and preemptive measure to prevent this man from being “overwhelmed by excessive sorrow.” One may certainly presume that the man must have made some sort of effort towards amending his state, but Scriptures simply do not indicate that he has appealed to St. Paul or the Corinthians for forgiveness. Creating a doctrinal/moral position, which supposes repentence as an absolute prerequisite for forgiveness, can not be supported by this Scriptural text.

It also appears, from the text, that St. Paul’s act of forgiveness is motivated by his love for the community and his concern for them as he explains: “what I have forgiven. . .I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake.” St. Paul is very clear that is not indicative of a response to repentance, but an act of charity, mercy, and communal healing.

I felt this was a great post and started looking at the Scripture.
Two things struck me - first - the 2 Cor 2:5-11 passage may not be referring to the same man or situation as in the 1 Cor 5 passage. Is there another passage that leads you to believe it is the same man?

And second, in the 2 Cor 2 passage it still does not say to take the man back into the fellowship of the believers. It says to forgive him and love him and give him comfort so that his sorrow is not overwhelming to him. I see that as to encourage this brother in the love of Christ. I don’t necessarily see it as allowing him (if still in sin) into the fellowship.

What do you think?