Forgiveness FAQ

[Socrates4Jesus]

I know I said I wasn’t going to post but this intrigued me, so I decided to post once more. (Like I said, I am planning to at least keep up with the thread.)…

Thanks, Doc! Again, i really do appreciate the time you have already devoted to helping me think this thing through. Please do not feel as though you have committed any sin. I do not feel slighted in the least by your devoting your time others.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

The good doctor makes a good point about the meaning of the word as. I find more than 30 definitions of the word at www.dictionary.com the first eight of which are

as1 http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngcache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif/æz; unstressed əz/Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciationaz; unstressed uhhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngz]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation*–adverb *1.to the same degree, amount, or extent; similarly; equally: *I don’t think it’s as hot and humid today as it was yesterday. *2.for example; for instance: *Some flowers, as the rose, require special care. *3.thought to be or considered to be: *the square as distinct from the rectangle; the church as separate from the state. *4.in the manner (directed, agreed, promised, etc.): *She sang as promised. He left as agreed. **–conjunction *5.(used correlatively after an adjective or adverb prec. by an adverbial phrase, the adverbial as, or another adverb) to such a degree or extent that: *It came out the same way as it did before. You are as good as you think you are. *6.(without antecedent) in the degree, manner, etc., of or that: *She’s good as gold. Do as we do. *7.at the same time that; while; when: *as you look away. *8.since; because: *As you are leaving last, please turn out the lights. *
As she correctly pointed out, there are as many meanings of the word as there are pages in this discussion thread. How am i to know if definition 1 or definition 8 is what St. Paul meant? I guess i would have to ask some more questions. As the good doctor will not answer them as i hoped she might, and as i cannot fault her for loving others as she should, i’ll have to hope i will find someone else as giving as she has been who will try to answer as many of my questions as she can. As i do not have all the answers myself, my hope is that as many who are willing to love me as Christ will answer as He would, speaking the truth in love, as they should.

My question i hope someone will answer is one i have asked someone else: What is the best, most virtuous, most righteous, most God-like, most wise, most beautiful, most holy and perfect way to forgive?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Q. 19. What is the best, most virtuous, most righteous, most God-like, most wise, most beautiful, most holy and perfect way to forgive?

 

[trogiah]

Jim:

Yes, i agree that genuine forgiveness will result in words and deeds that demonstrate the love of forgiveness that the forgiver has in his mind. Would you say then, Jim, as we look at the definitions of forgiveness, that to pardon a person (if one has the power to do so) would be an act of love that would demonstrate a person truly forgives?for·give /fərˈgɪv/Spelled Pronunciationfor-giv]1.to grant pardon for or remission of (an offense, debt, etc.); absolve. 2.to give up all claim on account of; remit (a debt, obligation, etc.). 3.to grant pardon to (a person). 4.to cease to feel resentment against: *to forgive one’s enemies. *5.to cancel an indebtedness or liability of: *to forgive the interest owed on a loan. **–verb (used without object) *6.to pardon an offense or an offender. For a specific illustration, lets use one similar to that which i give Janet:Lets say your spouse, or the spouse of someone close to you, has an affair. When confronted about it, she leaves you or your friend, hires a lawyer and sues for divorce. The divorce becomes final. Later the guy with whom she ran off leaves her and she comes back, begging for forgiveness and asking to remarry. How would you (or how would you advise your friend) to forgive her? What action should you or he take to show you had pardoned her for her sin? How should you or your friend demonstrate you have kept no record of her wrongs?

I would say that the example you give highlights what at times could be very significant differences between forgiveness, trust, and reconciliation.

I suppose the first thing a person could do to show they had forgiven their ex would be to stop sticking pins in an effigyof them, stop hoping for endless pain and suffering in their ex-spouses lives.

That statement being half in jest, I don’t think a person can appreciate the pain a person goes through when they have been “dumped” by a long time partner unless they have gone through it themself. Forgiveness may take a long time to arrive at just by itself. Reconciliation with that former spouse and reestablishment of trust could take much longer if it is even possible. It is one thing to say “I no longer hate and resent this person that I associate with a great pain in my life.” It is another thing to be willing and able to welcome that person intimately back into your life.

I don’t believe that saying “I just can’t put myself back into that position again” means that forgiveness has not taken place. Is that keeping a record of wrongs? Maybe, but to me it is more like a person who has been in a plane crash deciding to stay away from planes… or maybe deciding to never fly with that particular airline.

My sympathies to whomever may have been in the example situation you provided.

Jim

(Don’t know if it is relevant, but there is a Mosaic Law statement about how if a man marries a woman, then divorces her, then has an opportunity to remarry her, he should not do so. It would be “an abomination before God”. Of course, Jesus did note that Moses didn’t have the whole marriage and divorce thing right.)

 

[Philthy]

Philthy:

Please notice that our Lord does not say

Forgive us our trespasses because we forgive those who trespass against us.Rather, what He does say is

Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.The word as means in the same way. So, what He is saying we should pray is

Forgive us our trespasses in the same way we forgive those who trespass against us.The question you and i should ask God, then, is “How do you forgive us, Father?”

No, thats not the question I would be asking. I would be asking, “Who do I need to forgive? Is there anyone I need to forgive for any reason whatsoever? "
You seem to be having difficulty with a very simple concept: your actions matter into eternity. Judge not, that you be judged not. Forgive, otherwise you will not be forgiven. Spin it all you want, but Christ explained EXACTLY what he meant by “as” in verse 15. Here, let me repeat it for you:
IF you do not forgive others their trespasses, THEN your father in Heaven will not forgive yours.” As you fail to forgive, you will not be forgiven. Your rambling on the meaning of the word “as” is pure spin, Im afraid. IF you dont forgive others, you wont be forgiven. Deal with it, first, then start imposing a preconceived theology into it if you choose, but dont expect me to be confused on something so simple.
And before you think Im preaching a works righteousness, think again. I preach that forgiving another is an act of faith (faith working through love) accomplished by the grace that Christ procurred for us through his passion and crucifixion and which He promised to us. 1Cor 10:13 tells us that God is there during each trial and that He provides the grace we need to endure temptation and to follow Him. It is all by Grace, through faith - just not faith that is alone. Faith working through love in the form of forgiveness.
Now let me ask you a question: Is there someone you need to forgive but God has withheld sufficient Grace for you to do so? Or are you choosing to reject God’s offer? Ask Him to show you your heart…
Last thing - it would be easy to think I am judging your heart - Im not. Im giving you a dispassionate assessment of something that should be very clear: forgiving others is an important part of the Christian life. My ability to see this is not due to any spiritual maturity on my part, but simply because I am exempted from the emotional baggage that you are experiencing.

1 Peter 5:5-7
“…Clothe yourselves with humility in your dealings with one another. For God opposes the proud, but bestows favor upon the humble. So humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God that HE may exault YOU in due time. Cast ALL your worries upon him because He care about you.”

 

[Philthy]

My question i hope someone will answer is one i have asked someone else: What is the best, most virtuous, most righteous, most God-like, most wise, most beautiful, most holy and perfect way to forgive?

Uhhh, maybe I went a little “over the top” on my last post? Im sorry…

Anyhow, you seem to be getting to the right place. How does God forgive us? The answer, of course, is PERFECTLY! Seriously though, God forgave us when we least deserved it.
“But God proves his love in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” How can we, then, who have been forgiven deny another our forgiveness? Reread the parable of the unforgiving servant - you will see the ugly side of failing to forgive another: It begins at Matthew 18:23. Here is the cut to the chase…

“You wicked servant, I cancelled all that debt of yours when you appealed to me.(ie the debt was forgiven) 33Were you not bound(obligated) then, to have pity on your fellow-servant just as I had pity on you?” 34And in his anger the master handed him over to the torturers till he should pay all his debt.(A “forgiven” debt can be REASSESSED! OUCH!) 35And that is how my heavenly Father will deal with you unless you each forgive your brother from your heart.’
The parallel to Matt 6 and the Lord’s Prayer is undeniable - I wouldnt dance on semantics with all this heavy stuff throughout Scripture - When in doubt, forgive, forgive and forgive…

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… (Don’t know if it is relevant, but there is a Mosaic Law statement about how if a man marries a woman, then divorces her, then has an opportunity to remarry her, he should not do so. It would be “an abomination before God”. Of course, Jesus did note that Moses didn’t have the whole marriage and divorce thing right.)

Excellent topic for another discussion thread, Jim!


(So much wisdom to seek, so little time.)

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… I don’t believe that saying “I just can’t put myself back into that position again” means that forgiveness has not taken place. Is that keeping a record of wrongs? Maybe, but to me it is more like a person who has been in a plane crash deciding to stay away from planes, or maybe deciding to never fly with that particular airline.

My sympathies to whomever may have been in the example situation you provided…

I cannot imagine such pain either, Jim. We should both make a point today of praying for someone we know who is suffering, or has suffered, divorce.

“I hate divorce,” says the LORD God of Israel, “and I hate a man’s covering himself with violence as well as with his garment,” says the LORD Almighty. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith.(Malachi 2:16)God hates divorce as much as He hates domestic violence. It’s a true tragedy when a woman must choose to suffer either one or the other. We should weep with such women, and with God, when we pray for them. Perhaps even righteous indignation against those who seek to harm their spouses (in either sin) might also be in order? Another great topic for another discussion thread. It’s a sad subject, but one worthy of discussion.

Back to our discussion, Jim: You said, “Is that keeping a record of wrongs? Maybe…” and i say you are correct. For one can hold a record of wrongs without holding a grudge. Simply remembering the wrongs of another and taking action to hold the person responsible for those wrongs, and liable for those wrongs, and culpable for those wrongs, and so on is indeed keeping a record of wrongs. If this is not an example of keeping a record of wrongs, then of what is? Whatever we choose to call it, recalling the sins of another is essential to holding another accountable for his sins.

Would you not say then, Jim, that the condition that one who wronged must meet in order to regain the trust of the one who was wronged is this—he must demonstrate his sorrow for those wrongs and his intent to never commit those wrongs again? In the case of divorce, it might be wise to advise the divorcer to go to counseling with the divorcee and a qualified priest. Perhaps an honest, emotional discussion between the three of them would reveal the true state of mind of the one who had committed the sins of divorce and infidelity and perhaps violence?

What do you think, Jim?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Uhhh, maybe I went a little “over the top” on my last post? Im sorry…

Anyhow, you seem to be getting to the right place. How does God forgive us? The answer, of course, is PERFECTLY! Seriously though, God forgave us when we least deserved it.
“But God proves his love in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” How can we, then, who have been forgiven deny another our forgiveness? Reread the parable of the unforgiving servant - you will see the ugly side of failing to forgive another: It begins at Matthew 18:23. Here is the cut to the chase…

“You wicked servant, I cancelled all that debt of yours when you appealed to me.(ie the debt was forgiven) 33Were you not bound(obligated) then, to have pity on your fellow-servant just as I had pity on you?” 34And in his anger the master handed him over to the torturers till he should pay all his debt.(A “forgiven” debt can be REASSESSED! OUCH!) 35And that is how my heavenly Father will deal with you unless you each forgive your brother from your heart.’
The parallel to Matt 6 and the Lord’s Prayer is undeniable - I wouldnt dance on semantics with all this heavy stuff throughout Scripture - When in doubt, forgive, forgive and forgive…

Yes, Philthy, it is true and of that i agree that neither you nor me deserve God’s mercy or forgiveness! We should both pause to gratefully thank God that He loves us as we do not deserve.

In light of God’s undeserved love, mercy and forgiveness, i should consider your answer to my question

*What is the best, most virtuous, most righteous, most God-like, most wise, most beautiful, most holy and perfect way to forgive?*Your answer (and one i find most compelling) is that there is no better way to forgive than the way God Himself forgives. He forgives, as you said, PERFECTLY. For no one is more virtuous, more righteous, more wise, more beautiful, more holy, and more perfect than the Lord who deserves our praise and love and obedience. I completely concur.

My followup question, Philthy, is this: Would you say we should seek to become the most virtuous, most righteous, most wise, most beautiful, most holy, most nearly perfect, most like God as we possibly can?

 

[Philthy]

My followup question, Philthy, is this: Would you say we should seek to become the most virtuous, most righteous, most wise, most beautiful, most holy, most nearly perfect, most like God as we possibly can?

Yes, of course. Im confused why you would ask me this question as it would seem to already have been covered in the with the term “perfectly”, which describes God’s forgiveness.

 

[Philthy]

Simply remembering the wrongs of another and taking action to hold the person responsible for those wrongs, and liable for those wrongs, and culpable for those wrongs, and so on is indeed keeping a record of wrongs. If this is not an example of keeping a record of wrongs, then of what is? Whatever we choose to call it, recalling the sins of another is essential to holding another accountable for his sins.

Simply remembering the wrongs of another is not “keeping a record” of those wrongs. Acting on those memories is worse than simply keeping a record of wrongs. Christ remembered all the wrongs of the woman at the well, but he still forgave her perfectly. “keeping no record of wrongs” is probably best viewed metaphorically as something impossibly pure - to not even remember them.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Yes, of course. Im confused why you would ask me this question as it would seem to already have been covered in the with the term “perfectly”, which describes God’s forgiveness.

Yes, forgive me! It seems in my excitement i’ve overstated the obvious. So you and i agree, Philthy, that we should forgive others as perfectly as we can. That is, we should always seek to forgive as God Himself forgives, for no one is more virtuous, more righteous, more wise, more beautiful, more holy, more loving, and more perfect in the way that He forgives than God Himself. There is no need to dwell on the obvious fact that we should forgive one another as He forgives us.

Then you most certainly also must agree (and forgive me for overstating the obvious once again) that we should forgive only those who meet the conditions to be forgiven. This is, of course, what you believe.

 

[Philthy]

Then you most certainly also must agree (and forgive me for overstating the obvious once again) that we should forgive only those who meet the conditions to be forgiven. This is, of course, what you believe.

How nice - we have returned to my first post. There are no conditions for forgiveness other than:

A human being whom you recognize as needing your forgiveness.

There is no “condition” to be met by the forgivee, only the forgiver - that’s you Soc. When the forgiver recognizes that another is in need of his/her forgiveness it becomes incumbent upon the forgiver to extend said forgiveness.

 

[trogiah]

.

Would you not say then, Jim, that the condition that one who wronged must meet in order to regain the trust of the one who was wronged is this—he must demonstrate his sorrow for those wrongs and his intent to never commit those wrongs again? In the case of divorce, it might be wise to advise the divorcer to go to counseling with the divorcee and a qualified priest. Perhaps an honest, emotional discussion between the three of them would reveal the true state of mind of the one who had committed the sins of divorce and infidelity and perhaps violence?

What do you think, Jim?

I have thought about the questions raised here and the more I think about it the more convinced I become that trust is a substantially different thing than forgiveness. There are many different types of trust, the trust of a person in their spouse, the trust between a doctor and his or her patient, the trust between a money manager and their client.

When those trusts are broken, it may be difficult or impossible to reestablish them.

The relationship between a husband and wife has (potentially) many considerations in this regard. If a person in a long time committed relationship “cheats” on their spouse, is caught, and truly regrets their action and works to rebuild trust, there may exist a good chance that trust can be had again. It would likely take time and depend on a lot of factors.

If one person leaves another, and the person left behind grieves the loss, recovers from it, and begins to move on, and then the person who left comes back, It may truly be too late to rebuild the relationship. Both persons would have to look at reasons they might have to try and rebuild. If the loss has already began to heal, One person may not want to reopen old wounds. THis is not necessarily about an inability to forgive (although it might be). It may be simply that the bond that was once formed broke, and stayed broken for so long that it started to reheal which would prevent it’s reforming.

Trust is not the same thing as forgiveness. That is what I think

Jim

 

[Philthy]

Trust is not the same thing as forgiveness. That is what I think
Jim

Good post Jim! I will add to your last comment by saying that our ability to forgive another when we feel they don’t “deserve” it, or haven’t met our fabricated “conditions” of **forgiveness is made possible by our trust in God **who asks us to forgive unconditionally. Our trust in God should not be confused with our trust in the other person as it relates to forgiveness.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

How nice - we have returned to my first post. There are no conditions for forgiveness other than:

A human being whom you recognize as needing your forgiveness.

There is no “condition” to be met by the forgivee, only the forgiver - that’s you Soc. When the forgiver recognizes that another is in need of his/her forgiveness it becomes incumbent upon the forgiver to extend said forgiveness.

Now i am the one confused, Philthy! For you just said that the most virtuous, most righteous, most God-like, most wise, most beautiful, most holy, most loving and perfect way to forgive is to forgive as God Himself forgives.

Now you are saying that the most virtuous, most righteous, most God-like, most wise, most beautiful, most holy, most loving and perfect way to forgive is to forgive everyone, even if they meet no conditions at all.

You must believe then, Philthy, that God forgives everyone regardless of what conditions they meet, because that is how i am supposed to forgive. Are you saying that repentance is not a condition required to escape God’s judgement and hell?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… Trust is not the same thing as forgiveness. That is what I think.

Jim

That is what i think too, Jim. Restoring trust in a person is not forgiveness, it is trusting. The same is true of the other kinds of love St. Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians 13:4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8Love never fails.
So it is reasonable to say that

• Being patient is not forgiveness, it is patience.
• Being kind is not forgiveness, it is kindness.
• Not being proud nor boastful is not forgiveness, it is humility.
• Not being self-seeking is not forgiveness, it is selflessness.
• Not becoming easily angered is not forgiveness, it is gentleness.
• Keeping no record of wrongs, of course, is forgiveness.
  I’m sure you would agree, however, that one of restores his trust and relationship with a person is also one who loves in the person in other ways, such as being patient, kind and keeping no record of wrongs.

The question to answer, Jim, is this: How do we know whether forgiveness (or keeping no record of wrongs) is a conditional act of love like trust or an unconditional act of love like kindness?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Q. 20. Isn’t God’s way of forgiving the best, most virtuous, most righteous, most wise, most beautiful, most holy, most God-like, most loving and most perfect way to forgive?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Q. 21. Shouldn’t you and i forgive in the best, most virtuous, most righteous, most wise, most beautiful, most holy, most God-like, most loving and most nearly perfect way we can?

We should love as God loves and forgive as He forgives. Isn’t this truth self-evident?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Q. 22. Is there anyone reading this who really thinks that your own way of forgiving is better and more loving than God’s?