Forgiveness FAQ

[DrPiano]

Doctor:

Perhaps if we do not use the word forgive, and just consider the definitions, it will help us come to an agreement:

1. To grant pardon for or remission of (something).2. To cease to blame or feel resentment against.3. To remit, as a debt; to absolve from payment.You and i agree, i think, that to do (2) i should never require the person to meet any conditions (such as repenting or being ignorant of her sins). That is ceasing to blame and feel resentment against someone should be done unconditionally.

Lets say (1) and (3) are not forgiveness. Would you agree, Doc that to do (1) or (3) i probably should require a person to meet some conditions, such as repentance in both words and deeds? For example, lets say someone stole my car and sold it for cash and spent it all. Lets say he later showed genuine remorse and repentance and made a sincere attempt to pay me back the full price for the car. Would you say that it might then be good for me to not call the police and even tell him to keep the money, or give it to the poor, as long as he promises to never steal another car?

Do you think this is reasonable for me to personally pardon someone or absolve him from a debt he owes me, as long as i do so conditionally?

I think now we are, perhaps, coming to the beginnings of an agreement… perhaps. I think that we agree that to do (2), we ought not require others to meet any conditions. However, I do NOT think that even if the person truly repented and tried to repay you for the car it would necessarily be good to not call the police (or take the money). It might be a good thing to do those things (not call the police, not take the money) - but I firmly believe that experiencing temporal consequences can help a person grow. It may be more loving to call the police - but then testify on the person’s behalf at sentencing. It may be more loving to allow the person to make reparations (such as by paying you for the car) than to have all the consequences taken away. It may indeed may be more loving, in certain circumstances, to not call the police. I think it really depends on the situation. I agree that (1) and (3) require that certain circumstances be met, although this too may depend on the situation.

For example - if I am a loan officer, I can forgive a person’s debt without any conditions being met (3) - out of the generosity of my own heart. I could, perhaps, pay the debt myself. I can do this unconditionally or after a person has met certain conditions that I set. Similarly, if I have a friend who owes me money, I can forgive her debt freely and unconditionally - as an act of mercy and grace.

The President of the United States has a Constitutional right to pardon (1) any person that he/(perhaps eventually she) chooses. That person does not have to meet any requirements for this pardon. He does not have to apologize to the country, make any firm purpose of amendment, make any reparations. The President may, if he wishes, impose some conditions on that person, but does not have to. The President can forgive (definition 1) unconditionally if he wishes. In fact, if I remember my history correctly, President Clinton pardoned 1 or more people who never repented of the crimes for which they were convicted.

Also, I would postulate that Jesus does not require us to do (1) or (3) if a person repents. Jesus requires (2) of us - not the others.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I think now we are, perhaps, coming to the beginnings of an agreement perhaps. I think that we agree that to do (2), we ought not require others to meet any conditions. …

Yes, my good doctor, coming to an agreement is my aim, as proverbs tells me:When a man’s ways are pleasing to the LORD, he makes even his enemies live at peace with him.
(Proverbs 16:7)

Since this applies to my enemies, it certainly applies to you, as i consider you as something like a friend. Jesus said

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.
(Matthew 5:9)

and although you and i are not at war but cooperating with one another in an effort to discern the truth about forgiveness, our ideas are battling it out. Finding a way to come to an understanding so that your ideas and mine will put down their weapons and embrace one another in an armistice is a noble undertaking, i think.

 

[JaneFrances]

Is it more absurd to abide by the definition of a word in a dictionary or to make up your own definition, Jane? If you are not making up your own definition for the word forgiveness, then by what definition of forgiveness from the Bible or the Catechism are you abiding? Please quote it word for word.

My understanding of forgiveness is not derived solely from one dictionary entry, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, or Sacred Scripture. Instead, it is a composite understanding based on these reliable and authoritative sources, experience, and the Spirit.

Can anyone say with certainty she knows how to forgive if she does not put in words what the word forgive means?

As a Christian, I would have to say yes. One can say with certainty that she knows things which can not be adequately expressed in words. This is the nature of the Christian mystery. How do we describe exactly how God Himself became man? How do we know God even exists, especially as we recognize that we will never be able to contain in definitions and words the truth of who He is?

The things that you are asking of me are the very things that you can not produce yourself. You may settle for a secular dictionary definition. You may demand it of others. But, even if we all voted on our favorite definition, the truth would still be inadequately expressed.

The best we can do is seek the proper application, which is precisely the direction of this discussion. We know that we can never forgive in exactly the same way that God forgives, so how do we best apply our understanding of perfect forgiveness to our human experiences and capabilities?

While it is neither a dictionary definition nor an absolute description, the Catechism offers this:

733 “God is Love” 124 and love is his first gift, containing all others. “God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.” 125
734 Because we are dead or at least wounded through sin, the first effect of the gift of love is the forgiveness of our sins.

By this explanation, we can understand how forgiveness, among men, is a response to Love. Forgiveness among men, regardless of conditions, can be a witness to the unconditional Love of our Creator as the first effect of Love in our own lives. We forgive because we love, recognizing our common frailty towards sin, imperfect contrition, and variable measures of culpability.

 

[JaneFrances]

I’m looking for a definition of the word forgive, a standard by which i can compare my actions to see if they measure up. If you have such a definition, please do not keep it any longer from me. If you do not, then please explain how you know for certain you are forgiving if you do not know what forgiveness is.

I understand your frustration and your desire to have your theology defined on pages of a book. There are many sources, Christian and secular, which would guide us in the ways of understanding. However, I don’t think any one book gives a comprehensive, universally applicable, formal definition of the word “forgive” or instructs us how to specifically apply it to every circumstance.

It seems like a noble desire to want things spelled out on a page, but that’s not always how the Holy Spirit works. What seems so obvious and adequately defined for one person is not so obvious and adequate to another. Thus, at any given moment, at best, we have working definitions of ideas which direct us. We grow in our understanding as the Spirit searches our hearts. We apply those things we know to those we do not yet understand.

Dictionaries and definitions are not bad, but I hope you realize that this demand for a unanimous application puts us all in a bit of a pickle. In response to your request, I found five separate dictionaries which offer somewhat different definitions. How does one choose which one definition or combination of definitions is most authoritative, most reliable, most applicable?

Cambridge Online Dictionary’s only definition says that “forgive” means to stop feeling angry. This is a hard definition to accept as we all know, for especially when a repentant sinner immediately asks for forgiveness, the offended may still feel anger, perhaps even righteous anger, yet still forgive.

American Heritage says that “forgive” means to “excuse” someone for a fault or debt. But, how do we determine the limits of this excuse? It doesn’t explain it, so what do we do with this?

One of Dictionary.com’s definitions says that “forgive” means to give up “all claim” for a debt owed, but Merriam-Webster differs. Merriam-Webster offers that to “forgive” means to “grant relief from payment,” but it does not specify if it is complete relief, thus, allowing for a meaning more in line with your understanding of clemency, as in the case of Scooter. It’s hard to know which is more accurate. . .does forgiveness imply the removal of “all consequences,” as you have suggested, or can forgiveness mean a relief, a lessening, a pardon from the consequences associated with your vengeance or resentment or certain personal expectations?

In addition, one of Dictionary.com’s definitions says that “forgive” can pertain to either an “offense” or an “offender.” So, it seems that, according to this dictionary it may be possible to forgive the offender and not the offense or vice versa. This definition sure does spice up the pot a bit, especially if we’re using a dictionary for exegesis.

There are slight and not so slight differences in each dictionary definition, so I’m interested to know how you decided your chosen definition is the most accurate? Is it majority rules? Is it the one that fits in with your preconceived notions? Is it the one that sounds the best to you and helps your argument? How do you choose?

Also, definitions in dictionaries change over time according to their usage, so it would be helpful to know how you retain the truth of any given meaning considering the tides of the English language. I think DrPiano did quite an impressive job of assessing this actuality. She writes:

That is to say that in any given usage, only one definition of a word truly applies. Thus forgiveness of someone convicted of a crime by the President is NOT the same as forgiveness by a loan officer of a debt which is NOT the same as forgiveness by the victim of a crime by the perpetrator. Also similarly, forgiveness by God is not the same as forgiveness by a human. They’re all correct aspects and usages of the word forgiveness but they’re not all interchangeable. And you can’t apply all of them to the same usage of the word.

What part of this discussion is new?

You still want a dictionary definition. The rest of us don’t think dictionaries are adequate.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Jane:

When you stand before Jesus in all of His power and beauty and behold Him with your eyes for the first time; if He with love asks you, “Jane, while you were on earth, did you love Me?” what will you say to Him?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I think now we are, perhaps, coming to the beginnings of an agreement perhaps. I think that we agree that to do (2), we ought not require others to meet any conditions. …

I’m glad we agree on this truth that you and i should always unconditionally “cease to blame or feel resentment against” those who have wronged us, regardless of whether or not they repent. This truth is a firm foundation on which you and i may build an alter to worship the Only True God. The acts of forgiveness we give in worship to Jesus in this way will be a sweet aroma to Him indeed!

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Socrates,
Its not that I don’t see them as adequate definitions of the term forgiveness in certain contexts. Nor do I not see these as “acts of forgiveness” in certain contexts. However, you asked me to define forgiveness and I defined it as it pertains to the current context. As you know (and as I’ve specified multiple times) - words have different, fully accurate meanings in different contexts (see my previous post on definitions - its only a few of my posts back). In the current context - of forgiving someone who sins against me - the definition I gave in my last post is the one I see as being the most accurate - as what is required of us as Christians.

Please Doc feel free to call me Soc, for that is what my online friends call me.


When you say, “you asked me to define forgiveness and I defined it as it pertains to the current context” i’m not sure i understand what you mean. Are you referring to the context of how a Catholic should forgive in every circumstance, or are you referring to the context of our Merciful Lord Jesus’ instructions regarding how we should forgive, or are you talking about both or something else?

 

[Jerry-Jet]

What’s so hard about forgiving people in all of the ways that have been mentioned?

The only thing non priests cannot do is forgive and grant absolution to sinners for sins they have committed against God. They don’t have the authority to do that.

They do have the authroity to forgive in all the other ways that have been talked about here.

Isn’t that what love would dictate that they do?

Would love try to define limits to the boundaies of forgivess that has not already limited?

I don’t get the point of this thread.

Ho does semantic gymnastics advance the cause of Christ and how does it help people forgive one another?

There’s one way I could understand the point.

Many non catholics engage in such tedious exercises with the final objective of saying that priests don’t have the authority to grant absolution or that all chritians can forgive so there is no need of confession to priests.

I pray that is not the intent here.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

*Jesus replied: " ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. *

(Matthew 22:37-38)
JJ:

What does it mean to “Love the Lord your God … with all your mind”?

 

[Jerry-Jet]

It means to have sense enough to exercise love freely.

Some people are so smart–why don’t they just come out with all their intelligent eloquence and give us their definition of the limits of forgiveness.

That would waste a whole lot less time than arguing about such minutia until the Eschaton!

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

How do i know, JJ, if i am exercising love freely?

 

[Jerry-Jet]

I bet someone as smart as you could answer that queastion quite brilliantly.

Someone as smart as me doesn’t go down the path of twenty questions to be made to look like a fool.

I’m dumb enough to believe that the smartest way for people to learn is for people to just come out with what they believe.

I’m also dumb enough to believe that smart people don’t ask zillions of simple questions with no aim in mind.

I’m also smart enough to believe that people who are smart are smart enough to know that the Infinite God cannot be defined.

Maybe a better way to proceed would be for you Socrates4Jesus to tell us a story about when you felt that you had truely forgiven someone.

If you never have felt or thought that that had happened maybe you could tell us any attempts you have made at forgiving someone.

Maybe if there is something missing in your forgiveness then others might could help you.

Such a course would not bring us to an exact set of conclusions–it wouldn’t be precise–but it would be a forgiving way of arriving at the truth!

 

[JaneFrances]

Jane:

When you stand before Jesus in all of His power and beauty and behold Him with your eyes for the first time; if He with love asks you, “Jane, while you were on earth, did you love Me?” what will you say to Him?

I would say, “Jesus, you know my heart. You know I love you.”

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I would say, “Jesus, you know my heart. You know I love you.”

If He then asked, “Jane, how did you love me?” what would be your answer?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I bet someone as smart as you could answer that queastion quite brilliantly.

Someone as smart as me doesn’t go down the path of twenty questions to be made to look like a fool.

I’m dumb enough to believe that the smartest way for people to learn is for people to just come out with what they believe.

I’m also dumb enough to believe that smart people don’t ask zillions of simple questions with no aim in mind. …

Well, JJ, far from a zillion questions, i’ve asked you eight, and it appears that for you eight is enough. The questions i have asked you are these:

1. 
   *]What advice do you have to give me for how i should personally forgive someone?
   *]Please tell me, JJ, exactly what is forgiveness?
   *]How would you define the word forgive?
   *]Would it not be more honest for you to admit that you don’t know how to forgive because you say you don’t know what forgiveness is?
   *]How do you know they really forgave the Nazis since you said you do not know what the word forgive means?
   *]Now, JJ, what do you do when someone disagrees with you about the meaning of a word; how do you settle the dispute if not by opening up a dictionary and reading how it defines the word?
   *]What does it mean to “Love the Lord your God … with all your mind”?
   *]How do i know, JJ, if i am, as you said, “exercising love freely”?
   Since you do not want me to ask any more questions, i will not seek your opinion again. Still, i’d like to know just one more thing: If i have sinned by asking any of these questions, please explain how i have wronged you.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… Maybe a better way to proceed would be for you Socrates4Jesus to tell us a story about when you felt that you had truely forgiven someone.

If you never have felt or thought that that had happened maybe you could tell us any attempts you have made at forgiving someone.

Maybe if there is something missing in your forgiveness then others might could help you.

Such a course would not bring us to an exact set of conclusions–it wouldn’t be precise–but it would be a forgiving way of arriving at the truth!

I think i’d reveal such personal experiences to a good friend rather than an enemy, JJ. If you change your mind and you would like to have a discussion rather than a debate, please let me know. Take it easy, kid.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… I think you will find that the definition / requirements change depending on who’s doing the forgiving, who’s being forgiven and the nature of the offense.

There’s no one size fits all formula here and it seems to me that you are looking for a single way to forgive with a single set of rules.

Chuck

PS: Here’s the Dictionary.com definition. I think there is quite a difference between 3 and 4. Don’t you?

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
for·give http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngcache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif/fərˈgɪv/Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciationfer-giv]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation*verb, ***-gave, -giv·en, -giv·ing. ***–verb (used with object) *1.to grant pardon for or remission of (an offense, debt, etc.); absolve. 2.to give up all claim on account of; remit (a debt, obligation, etc.). 3.to grant pardon to (a person). 4.to cease to feel resentment against: *to forgive one’s enemies. *5.to cancel an indebtedness or liability of: *to forgive the interest owed on a loan. **–verb (used without object) *6.to pardon an offense or an offender.
[Origin: bef. 900; http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=for-”]for-

• give; r. ME foryiven, OE forgiefanhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png]

—Related forms **for·giv·a·ble, ***adjective *
**for·giv·er, ***noun *

—Synonyms 1.** See excuse. 3**.** absolve, acquit.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

Yes, i agree, Chuck! There is a difference between forgiving as definition (3) states and forgiving as definition (4) states.

Something Doc said also sheds some light on the subject: She mentioned that the context in which we use the word forgive matters. This reminded me of something i’ve heard, that is, that the context of a passage of Scripture in Greek determines the meaning of the Greek words in that passage. I suppose the same is true for English words, too, such as the word forgive.

Please tell me if you think this possible: Sometimes when a Biblical author uses the word forgive, he means “to cease to feel resentment against” and sometimes when a Biblical author uses the word forgive he means “to grant pardon to a person”?

P.S. Sorry for missing your reply until now. (So much to do; so little time!)

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soc
Tell me, Phil, what do you think it means to keep no record of wrongs? Would you agree that it means to personally pardon a person for the wrongs he has committed against you?

As I demonstrated above, it can mean that, but it does not necessarily mean that.

Phil:

I regret not answering your reply until now. Please forgive me, as i will try to be more careful to respond in a timely manner. Your (name removed by moderator)ut is appreciated!

What do you think of my question to Chuck in post # 715? Do you think that in some passages of the Bible Christ uses the word forgive to mean “to cease to feel resentment against” and in other passages of the Bible He uses the word to mean “to grant pardon to a person”?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socrates4Jesus forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
Phil:

*I apologize. I should reword the questions to reduce the chance of misunderstanding:1b. Do you think it is more perfect to pardon a person for his sin and cancel that person’s debt conditionally or unconditionally? *

I think that the pardon is unconditional. But clearly, Jesus taught that the debt, once discharged, can be re-acquired. …

Guano:

Thanks for responding and i apologize for carelessly missing your reply. You might be right that sometimes i should pardon a person unconditionally. However, if someone tried to murder my son in a drive-by shooting, i think that rather than pardon him i would call the police and testify against him.

However, if the perpetrator of the crime came to me before i called the police and gave me his weapon, and told me he was grieved for what he had done and asks me and my son for our forgiveness, and said he would never be violent again, i might then consider pardoning him by not calling the police and not pressing charges. This would be an example of justifiably requiring repentance from the one i would personally pardon.

BTW, what do you think of the idea i expressed in post # 715? I think i’m getting closer to the truth now, and i’d like to know if you agree.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Q. 26. Is it possible that sometimes Jesus and the Biblical authors used the word forgive to mean, “to cease to feel resentment against” and other times they intended the word forgive to mean “to grant pardon to a person”?