Former Catholic Priest Condemns the Catholic Church and Scott Hahn

[jmcrae]

It is, don’t worry!

We have a similar problem in Judaism. There are assimilated Jews who want to marry a nonJew, or eat pork, or whatever, and so suddenly, the “fault” is with Orthodox Judaism. NOT with them, oh, no! Its with the religion.

Even though the religion is 3,500 years old, and nobody thought to complain until the last hundred years or so…suddenly, “that religion is old fashioned and needs to change!”

Yes - because, eating ham and cheese sandwiches is the key to a life of modern happiness.

(Don’t worry; you aren’t actually missing anything by not eating them.)

 

[rpp]

Yes - because, eating ham and cheese sandwiches is the key to a life of modern happiness.

(Don’t worry; you aren’t actually missing anything by not eating them.)

You know my mother thinks so! But because of some medical problems, she had to give up sodium and cholesterol. She would so love to have a ham and cheese sandwich.

Er… um… Okay, what was the topic?

 

[ASimpleSinner]

I heard this man speak at a Baptist Church making an effort to “Reach out to Catholics” - he was angry and prone to misrepresentation.

It showed.

 

[po18guy]

Hi. Um…I guess I just did that.
Yes. He was a Dominican. Here is the response I received from someone at the monastery.

Thank you so much for posting this. I think he has a severe spiritual battle raging within. He is certainly worthy of our continuing prayers.

Christ’s peace.

 

[po18guy]

And another one joins the anti-catholic que, like it’s been for centuries. :coffeeread:

Amen!

 

[graceandglory]

Originally Posted by graceandglory
Hi. Um…I guess I just did that.
Yes. He was a Dominican. Here is the response I received from someone at the monastery.

Kind of fits with the TBI thing, huh?

Remind me never to run for public office.

 

[graceandglory]

Thank you so much for posting this. I think he has a severe spiritual battle raging within. He is certainly worthy of our continuing prayers.

Christ’s peace.

Amen!

Let us pray.***
O God, our refuge and our strength, look down with mercy upon the people who cry to Thee; and by the intercession of the glorious and immaculate Virgin Mary, Mother of God, of Saint Joseph her spouse, of the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and of all the saints, in Thy mercy and goodness hear our prayers for the conversion of sinners, and for the liberty and exaltation of the Holy Mother the Church. Through the same Christ Our Lord. Amen.***

 

[CatsAndDogs]

You said:
“The reason is ALWAYS some variant of being scandalized by some behavior of some sinful Catholic, and not being able to separate the sinner from the sin, and imputing to the Church the evil of the person.”

There is no specific person whom I was not able to separate the sinner from the sin. It is my own personal large issues with the basic tenants of Catholicism which is the reason I am no longer a part of that religion. No specific person is responsible.

You were “scandalized” by a collection of people, namely those who didn’t do their job in giving you the information you needed to come to proper conclusions regarding your questions, which, because you are obviously very motivated by a distaste for “hypocracy and evil-doing”, veritably forced you out of the Church.

But you were “scandalized” out of the Church by the imputation of percieved evil from those who you saw as “evil-doing” to the Church proper.

Let me clarify my writings. The problem of hell is something that is still a very gray area. From what I know of Catholic teaching, yes, people “choose” hell: those who are not Catholic/those who die in a state of non-priest confessed mortal sin/sin against the Holy Spirit/those who reject Jesus, or those without perfect contrition are very likely to go to hell. We are supposedly all given enough information sometime in life to “make the correct choice”.

Yes, I have seen it said over and over again that people chose to reject Jesus or chose not to believe in Jesus.

The thing is this - I don’t agree that a person’s religion, or ability to believe in Jesus, is their choice.

So your basic “heresy” is the denial of free will. Quite sensible. Though incorrect. Being sensible, for many many good reasons, has very little to do with being correct.

I am at the mercy of what my brain tells me is logical. I can go through the motions but to call myself Catholic would be a lie. I can not choose believe even though I have asked for it for over a decade. I can not choose to believe a cat is a blueberry, nor can I choose to believe that Catholicism is accurate. Even though I may want it to, my heart can not dictate what my mind thinks.

You are trapped into thinking that you have the authority to decide, finally, what is true. That is sensible, and a very good “self protection” mechanism. The question is what it is you are protecting yourself from?

As per Catholic teaching, we can not officially “know” who is going to heaven or hell, but things look bleak for those who are not Catholic, much less Christian. Faith + good works = heaven. I think this is amoral, since my understanding is that faith is not a choice.

Therefore, I don’t agree that getting into Catholic heaven is fully dependent upon one’s choice.

And that’s perfectly reasonable. In fact it’s essentially DEMANDED as a conclusion given your two premises that:

1. We have no free will.
2. It is evil to do that which is hypocritical.

As for not “getting “what you wanted when you wanted it”.”, I fail to see where this is the case, and ask that you point it out to me. I spent over a decade trying to reconcile all this and force myself back into believing Catholicism. I decided I had to change my designation because continuing to call myself a Catholic would be a lie. I know my journey, wherever it takes me, will last a lifetime.

You have your “basic principles” backwards. The first principle is that God is All-Good, All-Just, and All-Powerful. The second principle is that whatever does happen is for the greater good, regardless of what it appears to be. The third is that our very existence is a prayer, just as are those times we call “when I pray”, and that these “prayers” are always answered in the way best for us.

You can’t FORCE your way back into the Church. You can only ALLOW yourself back into the Church. That takes humility. The humility to allow God qua God, and not “God” qua god (idol), to be your God by allowing revelation to be what it is instead of simply “rationalizing myth”.

I know that God is incapable of being injust. This contradiction draws me away from thinking the Catholic religion is the correct one, because it differs from my perspective of a perfect God.

If God is uncapable of being unjust, then how can any of His creation be “unjust”, such as “unjust suffering” of the unfortunate?

 

[qui_est_ce]

Amen!

Let us pray.***
O God, our refuge and our strength, look down with mercy upon the people who cry to Thee; and by the intercession of the glorious and immaculate Virgin Mary, Mother of God, of Saint Joseph her spouse, of the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and of all the saints, in Thy mercy and goodness hear our prayers for the conversion of sinners, and for the liberty and exaltation of the Holy Mother the Church. Through the same Christ Our Lord. Amen.***

It’s amazing how much good will for the Catholic Church, on this thread alone, Mr Bennet has accomplished by his anti-Catholic testimony! We don’t need to worry if we open our eyes and put ourselves in God’s hands.

 

[mercygate]

YES!!! God has truly blessed me. Fortunately I was able to hang on to Catholic concepts when the scriptures didn’t make sense to me. I grabbed hold of what I understood and wrestled with the rest. An interesting point is abortion and invetro fertilization. [my spelling is horrible, so please forgive] I figured out on my own that invetro fertilization was inately wrong if not evil - messing with God’s creation. Many Protestants or non-Catholic in general would say that though they do not believe abortion is right, there always seemed to have an out for rape or incest… Dahh! If abortoin is evil then it doesn’t matter whether the baby comes from daddy or rapist. A Command Sergeant Major, who was a Protestant Minister also, used to tell us “there ain’t no right way to do wrong”. That was one of the best learning lessons of my life.

Anyway. I have more of my story posted here and there in more detail. Just do me a favor and correct the typos and grammar…I look rediculously ignorant. Pe

Pax et tecum

Kind of interesting how God brings us home through our affirmations rather than our denials. Many years ago, LONG before we were Catholic, my spouse and I intuited that contraception was really, really disordered. That was one of the affirmations that guided us to the only game in town where the same affirmation was being proclaimed with a clear voice.

 

[mercygate]

Remind me never to run for public office.

I should have been more clear. TBI = Traumatic Brain Injury.

Not joking. It can mess up your memory and your thinking.

 

[distracted]

they simply didn’t know very basic Catholic stuff.

their lack of knowledge is, in my opinion, the fault of the Church for not teaching. And a lot of folks don’t know what questions to ask or where to go to get answers.

thank you so much for saying that… We Catholics have to remember that not everyone is raised Catholic… Of course, not even all Catholics are raised, objectively, speaking, very Catholic… I am one… I had to teach myself… and i almost didn’t (out of “laziness”… and the thought that as long as i was a Christian, it didn’t really matter… I am glad i “argued” with myself on that one )…

What I told them was that regardless of how strongly they “felt” [their word] their new faith was, if they go from door-to-door holding themselves out as “experts” on comparative religion, they had better get some actual factual knowledge about Catholicism.

I gave them some sources, although I suspect they weren’t much interested.

I’ve been there!! I have to … cause i think what you went through is more common than we realize… One thing that seems to be very common is people THINKING they know the Catholic Faith (“Catholics” and non-C) but they really don’t… Some seem to think they can read a few pages of the Catechism… or go to Mass one or two times and voie la… they understand Catholicism… I’ve been Catholic all my life and know that i have still much to learn…

 

[jmcrae]

I’ve been there!! I have to … cause i think what you went through is more common than we realize… One thing that seems to be very common is people THINKING they know the Catholic Faith (“Catholics” and non-C) but they really don’t… Some seem to think they can read a few pages of the Catechism… or go to Mass one or two times and voie la… they understand Catholicism… I’ve been Catholic all my life and know that i have still much to learn…

I used to run into this all the time when I was running an RCIA Inquiry program - we had a lot of people come in who were “just there for the day” - they’d been to Mass once, they knew how to make the Sign of the Cross, and had once been to a Protestant Bible study somewhere, so they “knew it all” and were ready to be received into the Church, like, next Sunday, so, “hurry it up and get my paperwork done; I’m not staying in this dummies’ class.”

Recite the Apostles’ Creed for me, please?

Huh? The what?!

The Apostles Creed? You just said you knew everything; the Apostles’ Creed is the minimum essential for being received into the Church - recite it for me, please?

WELL, I never!! [bluster, bluster, bluster].

Okay, this week for your homework, please memorize the Apostles’ Creed, and if you can recite it for me next week, we’ll ask Father whether he’ll consider bringing you into the Church at a regular Sunday Mass.

Your Dad is in charge of the Church here?

*No - Father is the priest in charge. *

What’s a priest? Why do you call him “Father”?

Okay, yeah, I think you need the full three months of Inquiry.

Oh, wow - what a lot of red tape! Why do I have to go through all that, when I already told you that I know everything I need to know to become a Catholic?

 

[Al_Masetti]

I used to run into this all the time when I was running an RCIA Inquiry program - we had a lot of people come in who were “just there for the day” - they’d been to Mass once, they knew how to make the Sign of the Cross, and had once been to a Protestant Bible study somewhere, so they “knew it all” and were ready to be received into the Church, like, next Sunday, so, “hurry it up and get my paperwork done; I’m not staying in this dummies’ class.”

Recite the Apostles’ Creed for me, please?

Huh? The what?!

The Apostles Creed? You just said you knew everything; the Apostles’ Creed is the minimum essential for being received into the Church - recite it for me, please?

WELL, I never!! [bluster, bluster, bluster].

Okay, this week for your homework, please memorize the Apostles’ Creed, and if you can recite it for me next week, we’ll ask Father whether he’ll consider bringing you into the Church at a regular Sunday Mass.

Your Dad is in charge of the Church here?

*No - Father is the priest in charge. *

What’s a priest? Why do you call him “Father”?

Okay, yeah, I think you need the full three months of Inquiry.

Oh, wow - what a lot of red tape! Why do I have to go through all that, when I already told you that I know everything I need to know to become a Catholic?

I know you’re trying to be cute … however, this sounds like a transcript of some actual conversations I have had with some folks.

But you did leave out the part where they say that Catholics learn about their faith by osmosis.

No joke.

 

[jmcrae]

I know you’re trying to be cute … however, this sounds like a transcript of some actual conversations I have had with some folks.

But you did leave out the part where they say that Catholics learn about their faith by osmosis.

No joke.

Which “they”? I had an RCIA coordinator tell me that one time …

 

[Aleii]

This is not an accurate representation of Church teaching. Start from where Jesus says that to he that much is given, much is expected. Those with the gift of faith are expected to do more than those without. Further, those blessed with Christian beliefs are expected to do more. Finally, those who are Catholic have the most expected out of them. If anything, it is more bleak for Catholics.

Yes, you must have faith, and faith leads to good works, but you must also avoid sin and repent when you do sin.

Put a period after the word “hell” in my quote instead of a comma - I meant the second part of that as what seems to be common perception. Sorry for the confusion.

You are saying that things are more bleak for Catholics? Therefore, having faith makes it less likely one will go to heaven? I have never heard that before, only the opposite. There are numerous scriptures which talk about the importance of faith for heaven. I can agree that if one has faith, they also have clearer responsibility. I do not agree that faith will make one less likely to go to heaven than those who are bumbling about in the dark, uncertain of what is needed and hoping for the best. The question of invincible ignorance (as well as heaven)is a gray one. It may just be that we’ll have to agree to disagree with this because of that.

Those without the Catholic faith will not be getting confession from a priest, (and therefore are in jeopardy of mortal sins, which is a big part of the reasoning that heaven is considered less likely for those without faith) or any of the blessings of the sacraments such as the Eucharist.

 

[ralphinal]

Put a period after the word “hell” in my quote instead of a comma - I meant the second part of that as what seems to be common perception. Sorry for the confusion.

You are saying that things are more bleak for Catholics? Therefore, having faith makes it less likely one will go to heaven? I have never heard that before, only the opposite. There are numerous scriptures which talk about the importance of faith for heaven. I can agree that if one has faith, they also have clearer responsibility. I do not agree that faith will make one less likely to go to heaven than those who are bumbling about in the dark, uncertain of what is needed and hoping for the best. The question of invincible ignorance (as well as heaven)is a gray one. It may just be that we’ll have to agree to disagree with this because of that.

Those without the Catholic faith will not be getting confession from a priest, (and therefore are in jeopardy of mortal sins, which is a big part of the reasoning that heaven is considered less likely for those without faith) or any of the blessings of the sacraments such as the Eucharist.

Remember how Jesus taught us that to he that much is given much is expected? What is more than the Fullness Of Truth? Catholics will have a worse time if the are Catholic in name only, not going to confession or mass, etc.

I am not saying that faith makes it harder, on the contrary, having true faith makes accepting what is expected of us easier. Living out the life that we are called to is the hard part, and Catholics are expected to live the sacramental life while being a light to the world. We will be judged accordingly.

For example, an Inca living 100 years after Christ is not judged the same way that you or I will be. We will not be judged the same way as a pope.

Invincible ignorance can only be determined by God. We cannot decide who has and does not have it. We have to keep preaching the Good News to all. But, those who through no fault of their own that do not know about the Truth of the Catholic Church cannot be held liable for not following the Church.

I hope this helps.

 

[Aleii]

You were “scandalized” by a collection of people, namely those who didn’t do their job in giving you the information you needed to come to proper conclusions regarding your questions, which, because you are obviously very motivated by a distaste for “hypocracy and evil-doing”, veritably forced you out of the Church.

But you were “scandalized” out of the Church by the imputation of percieved evil from those who you saw as “evil-doing” to the Church proper.

While I guess you could say that, it seems more of a round-about way than just saying it was me who came to those conclusions.

So your basic “heresy” is the denial of free will. Quite sensible. Though incorrect. Being sensible, for many many good reasons, has very little to do with being correct.

Could you, right now, decide that you honestly believe in Zeus? How about Scientology? How about believing that your computer is really a pad of paper? Even if I threatened you or promised you money, is there any way you could honestly do any of those? While I could go about the motions of reading about Zeus and obtaining a statue, I could not honestly bring myself to believe. As I can not make sense out of my computer being a pad of paper, I could not believe that either. Scientology has premises which seem absurd to me and a dubious history, which would also make me unable to believe.

You are trapped into thinking that you have the authority to decide, finally, what is true. That is sensible, and a very good “self protection” mechanism. The question is what it is you are protecting yourself from?

It will be a lifelong journey. I must always continue to learn. The numerous amount of religions out there show me that there is much misinformation, and I am trying to protect myself from going down the wrong path.

And that’s perfectly reasonable. In fact it’s essentially DEMANDED as a conclusion given your two premises that:

1. We have no free will.
2. It is evil to do that which is hypocritical.

That is an accurate summary. At the moment I’m postulating no free will of faith, whereas the idea of no free will at all could develop into a separate thread.

You have your “basic principles” backwards. The first principle is that God is All-Good, All-Just, and All-Powerful. The second principle is that whatever does happen is for the greater good, regardless of what it appears to be. The third is that our very existence is a prayer, just as are those times we call “when I pray”, and that these “prayers” are always answered in the way best for us.

I agree with the first principle. As for the second, I try to find the good in things, but my view is that if there is a god out there, it is a very non-involved god, so I think that whatever happens, just happens. I don’t believe in fate. The third principle I believed while I was a Catholic, but, today, see it more as expression of our hopes, meditations, etc.

You can’t FORCE your way back into the Church. You can only ALLOW yourself back into the Church. That takes humility. The humility to allow God qua God, and not “God” qua god (idol), to be your God by allowing revelation to be what it is instead of simply “rationalizing myth”.

I feel like I’ve tried a whole lot. Yes, there was a big period over those 12 years where I did everything I could to be humble, sitting quietly in an empty church, adoration, rosaries, talking with priests, retreats, having others pray for me, asking on this board what else i could do, etc, wondering what was wrong with me that faith just kept slipping away no matter what I seemed to do. I can see how my sentence is confusing – I did not try to force myself back for the whole 12 years, but I did at the end; I was desperate. Its not easy or fun to have everything you believed in and were taught about the religion to be turned on its side. I still have a big stack of books I need to read, but besides that, I’m out of ideas. If you have some other reasonable suggestion(a 4 month pilgrimage is not doable at this time ), I’d love to hear what I’ve been doing wrong all this time.

If God is uncapable of being unjust, then how can any of His creation be “unjust”, such as “unjust suffering” of the unfortunate?

Sorry, I’m not quite clear on what you are saying. Are you saying the way people act towards another is “unjust” or the lot people are born into is “unjust”, or both?

 

[Roger_Wissinger]

Because the more I studied, the more I learned to condemn and have reason to leave.

Can you tell me what you’re studying? Since coming back to the church 3 years ago, I can’t get enough books on the Catholic Church. I love the Catholic Church. I love Christ and I’ve changed so much. I hope you reconsider on not leaving the church.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Remember how Jesus taught us that to he that much is given much is expected? What is more than the Fullness Of Truth? Catholics will have a worse time if the are Catholic in name only, not going to confession or mass, etc.
{snip}Invincible ignorance can only be determined by God. We cannot decide who has and does not have it. We have to keep preaching the Good News to all. But, those who through no fault of their own that do not know about the Truth of the Catholic Church cannot be held liable for not following the Church.

I hope this helps.

Add
James 4:17
*So for one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, it is a sin. *