Former spiritual advisor to Medjugorje "seers" - Tomislav Vlasic - laicized by the Holy See

[Lief_Erikson]

the Vatican’s current Secretary of State Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone wrote an official letter confirming that pilgrimages to Medjugorje are permitted and that the opinions on Medjugorje of Bishop Ratko Peric, the current Bishop of Mostar, are to be treated strictly “as his personal opinion” with no authority.

Perhaps the Vatican has taken authority over Medjugorje today, because of desiring the results of its latest Commission. However, the bishop has exercised his jurisdictional authority over Medjugorje in the past, and its apparitions, priests and visionaries defied him. Fr. Tomislav Vlasic, who the visionaries said was a “living saint”, and who was supposed to have had “streams of living water” running from his chair, is suspended from priestly duties “for the diffusion of dubious doctrine, manipulation of consciences, suspicious mysticism, disobedience toward legitimately issued orders.” You said the Vatican has a responsibility to take action when facing heresy. Well, it is.

I have yet to see a word from the Vatican on the visionaries’ false doctrine that “all religions are equal” and that the Virgin does not call people into the Catholic faith because all faiths are basically similar and lead to God. However, I expect that the results of the new Commission will address this.

Several Franciscan brothers important to Medjgorje (again, people the apparitions supported against the Church) also defied the rule of their order for remaining at the site in spite of their superiors’ commands they leave, for profanely administering the sacraments and for assisting in invalid marriages. Consequently they were expelled.
catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=20431
Friars Ivica Vego and Ivan Prusina also defied Bishop Zanic, when he ordered them to leave Mostar, saying the Virgin Mary, through the visionaries, ahd ordered them to stay. Their superior expelled them from the order as a consequence.

[quote=catholic.org]“As the local bishop, I maintain that regarding the events of Medjugorje, on the basis of the investigations and experience gained thus far throughout these last 25 years, the church has not confirmed a single apparition as authentically being the Madonna,” [Bishop Peric]
said. He then called on the alleged visionaries and “those persons behind the messages to demonstrate ecclesiastical obedience and to cease with these public manifestations and messages in this parish.”

“In this fashion they shall show their necessary adherence to the church, by placing neither private apparitions nor private sayings before the official position of the church,” he said.

[/quote]

Have they shown holy obedience? No. The visionaries and their mentors have all defied the appropriate ecclesiastical hierarchy. 1 John 4:6 says, “We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.”

St. Faustina, St. Margaret Mary, Catherine Laboure and other visionaries submitted to their superiors completely and put the word of the Church above everything, for they recognized in it the authority and word of God. The apparition of Mary to the visionaries at Medjugorje, however, said “the bishop is wrong,” and authorized disobeying him.

Ignatius of Antioch wrote, “Indeed, when you submit to the bishop as you would to Jesus Christ, it is clear to me that you are living not in the manner of men but as Jesus Christ, who died for us, that through faith in his death you might escape dying. It is necessary, therefore – and such is your practice – that you do nothing without the bishop and that you be subject also to the presbytery as to the apostles of Jesus Christ, our hope, in whom we shall be found if we live in him.”

The Vatican may have taken authority over Medjugorje, or may be waiting for the apparitions to stop before its Commission gives a verdict (the EWTN article you cited said they were likely to wait before giving a negative verdict, just as likely as they were likely to wait before giving a positive), but the bishop called on them in the name of holy obedience to submit to his authority and the visionaries refused. So did the now-expelled Franciscan brothers they supported and the now-suspended Fr. Vlasic they said was a saint. In Medjugorje there is open defiance of ecclesiastical rule, if not among pilgrims, among those they are going to see. I don’t see how this could possibly be of Christ.

Did you know that the Vatican responded with an implicit rebuke of Bishop Peric’s widely publicized June 15, 2006, condemnation of Medjugorje when Cardinal Vinko Puljic, president of the Bosnia and Hercegovina Bishops Conference and Archbishop of Sarajevo, announced on July 15, 2006, that “The Catholic Church is starting a new commission that will look into the Medjugorje events” thus reiterating the Vatican’s position that the apparition does not fall under Bishop Peric’s jurisdiction?

Medjugorje is within the Bishop of Mostar’s jurisdiction. It is part of the territory under his oversight and the popes have supported his right to make decisions there. It appears that the Vatican has taken over this particular case because it got out of hand, and has therefore started a new Commission. The Bishop of Mostar did request the Holy See’s assistance, because he was getting so much conflict from the Franciscan brothers around Medjugorje, from Vlasic and the visionaries, as well as from a core of many of their supporters. The pilgrimages continue to flood into Medjugorje.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Jurisdiction has been taken away from the local ordinary by the Vatican.

Yet before this happened, the visionaries, Franciscans and Vlasic, following the orders of the apparitions of Mary, all disobeyed the Church hierarchy. Now, some of them are suffering for it, justly. I wish we didn’t have to wait until the apparitions cease before the Commission renders a judgment. I am glad the Church is so careful, though.

The Vatican can never rule in favor of an apparition until it has concluded. They would have had a moral obligation to condemn it by now if there was anything against the faith of the Church.

The Vatican has authorized Fr. Vlasic’s suspension over exactly this issue. But as the EWTN article you brought up said, a positive or a negative response on the apparitions as a whole is likely to wait until they have stopped appearing.

I will not risk condemning what may be our blessed mother’s work as diabolical or deception. Think about it, are any of you qualified to rule on this matter? How will you answer to our lady if you are wrong, and worked against her plans?.

She knows my motives, that I am intensely opposed to disobedience against Christ’s apostolate and to false doctrine. She also knows how I see in this a great money scam and (though whenever I say this, I prayerfully apologize to her if I’m wrong) an incredible number of insipid messages. If I’m deceived, she already has received my apologies. But I’d rather be wrong while honestly trying to defend the Church than silent when people are following after a falsehood.

I would not dare to speak against an approved apparition, however.

Medjugorje has not been condemned. The Vatican itself has taken over the reins and is still investigating. I will summit in obedience to whatever the Vatican rules.

Good! I hope all Catholics do.

Did you know that in his own hand Pope John Paul II wrote, “I thank Sophia for everything concerning Medjugorje. I, too, go there everyday as a pilgrim in my prayers”? Did you know that Blessed Mother Teresa, again in her own hand, wrote: “We are all praying one Hail Mary before Holy Mass to Our Lady of Medjugorje!”? Did you know that the world’s foremost exorcist, Fr. Gabriele Amorth, official exorcist of the Diocese of Rome who has performed more than 30,000 exorcisms, wrote, “Medjugorje is a fortress against Satan. Satan hates Medjugorje because it is a place of conversion, of prayer, of transformation of life”?

I’ve read also that the Bishop of Mostar said he had a conversation with Pope Benedict, and it came across to him that his holiness shared many of his concerns about Medjugorje. I don’t believe Mother Teresa ever went to Medjugorje. I’ve heard another important exorcist speak of Medjugorje as a place of the devil. I’m sure a series of illustrious personages can also be reeled off opposing Medjugorje just as one can be presented supporting it.

Supporters of Medjugorje often say Bishop Zanic’s opposition to the phenomenon is probably the result of political tensions in the region. However, I personally believe Bishop Zanic’s explanation for why he believes what he does. Here is part of it, and it makes a lot of sense as he explains it.
catholicdoors.com:

In May, 1990, the February, 1990, statement of the Most Rev. Pavao Zanic, Bishop of Mostar, appeared in Fidelity Magazine.
When asked by a priest from Panama as to “the reasons why I do not believe in the ‘apparitions.’ I told him that I have at least 20 reasons not to believe, of which only one is necessary for those who are sober and well instructed in the faith to come to the conclusion that the apparitions are not of supernatural origin.” What follows are some of the reasons:

1. “An ex-Franciscan priest Ivica Vego, due to his disobedience, by an order of the Holy Father the pope, was thrown out of the Franciscan religious order by his General, dispensed from his vows and suspended ‘a divinis.’ He did not obey this order, and continued to celebrate Mass, distribute the sacraments and pass the time with his mistress. According to the diary of Vicka and the statements of the ‘seers’, Our Lady claimed 13 times that Vego was innocent and that the bishop was wrong. When his mistress, Sister Leopolda, a nun, became pregnant, both of them left Medjugorje and the religious life and began to live together near Medjugorje where their child was born. Now they have two children.”
2. “The Marian theologian Rene Laurentin behaves in the same manner. He came to visit me around Christmas 1983, and I offered him dinner. When he asked me why I did not believe in the apparitions, I told him that according to the diary of Vicka and the words of the other ‘seers’ this ‘Lady’ has been speaking against the bishop. Laurentin quickly responded: ‘Don’t publish that, because there are so many pilgrims and converts here.’ I was scandalized by this statement of this well-known Mariologist! Unfortunately this has remained Laurentin’s position: to hide the truth and defend falsehoods. He has written around ten books on the topic of Medjugorje, and in almost all of them, the truth and Bishop Zanic are under fire. He knows well what people like to hear. Therefore, it was relatively easy for him to find those who would believe him. ‘A veritate quidam auditum avertent, ad fabulas autem convertentur’ – ‘They will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths’ (2 Tim. 4:4). The ‘seers’ and defenders of Medjugorje led by Laurentin from the very outset have seen that the modern believer in a communist country very quickly believes in something ‘miraculous,’ in apparent miraculous healings and apparent messages from ‘Our Lady.’”

Continued . . .

 

[Joe_5859]

Another poster in this forum said a clever thing. Something like:

If the local Bishop finds against it, they’ll wait for The Vatican to pronounce on it.
If The Vatican pronounces against it, they’ll say the Pope is the ultimate arbiter.
If The Pope comes out against it, they will then enter into schism with The Church.
It’s a well-worn path.

I think that’s a bit unfair (not to mention it commits the logical fallacy of arguing from a slippery slope). There currently is a commission that is investigating Medjugorje that is above the local bishop’s purview. I see no problem in waiting for their response. It doesn’t mean a person is ready to go into schism.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Continued from my last post . . .

1. “The main players on which Medjugorje rests are retired Archbishop F. Franic, R. Laurentin, L. Rupcic OFM, Amorth, Rastelli S.J., and some Franciscans and charismatics from all over the world. Many books have been quickly published, as well as articles, brochures, films, and souvenirs. There are tourist agencies, pilgrimages, 600,000 copies of prayerbooks (written by two Franciscans, Vego and Prusina, who were thrown out of their Order) published in many languages, fanatical prayer groups that are inspired by the apparent messages of Our Lady, and finally there is the greatest motivator of all – money. No one even mentions that which throws doubt on the ‘apparitions.’ The bishop has been warning everyone, but the ‘machinery’ has been working overtime.”

1. “Fifty miraculous healings have been mentioned, then 150, 200, 300, and so on. Laurentin chose 56 dossiers and sent them to the ‘Bureau medical de Lourdes.’ Dr. Mangiapan responded in their Bulletin, April '84, that these dossiers have no practical value, and they cannot be used or considered as serious proofs of the apparitions in Medjugorje. Much has been written about the healing of Diane Basile. I sent the dossier to Dr. Mangiapan who studied the case and then took the position ‘opinion plus que reservée.’ It is a case of multiple sclerosis. More will be written about this later in a book.”

1. “The credibility of the ‘seers’ - Mirjana Dragicevic. One month after the beginning of the ‘apparitions’ I went to Medjugorje to question the ‘seers.’ I asked each of them to take an oath on the cross and demanded that they speak the truth. (This conversation and oath were recorded on tape.) The first one was Mirjana: ‘We went to look for our sheep when at once…’ (The associate pastor interrupted and told me that they actually went out to smoke, which they hid from their parents.) ‘Wait a minute, Mirjana, you’re under oath. Did you go out to look for your sheep?’ She put her hand over her mouth. ‘Forgive me, we went out to smoke,’ she said. She then showed me the watch on which the ‘miracle’ occurred because the hands of the watch had gone haywire. I took the watch to a watch expert, who said that the watch had certainly fallen and become disordered. After bringing the watch back to her I told her not to mention that a miracle occurred. Yet, on cassettes taped later on, she went to to speak of how a miracle occurred with the watch and that initially they had gone out to search for their sheep.”

“Later on, she claimed that Our Lady said that all faiths are equal. How much can we believe Mirjana?”

1. “Vicka Ivankovic has been the main ‘seer’ from the beginning and through her the creator of Medjugorje, Rev. Tomislav Vlasic OFM, has launched the main portion of falsehoods regarding Medjugorje. He presented himself to the Pope in a letter May 13, 1984 as follows: ‘I am Rev. Tomislav Vlasic, the one, according to Divine Providence, who guides the seers of Medjugorje.’ It would have been better for him to withdraw into the ‘desert’ and remain silent, because his past speaks enough about him. Vicka spoke and wrote much, and in so doing she fell into many contradictions. Prof. Nikola Bulai, a member of the first commission, questioned her and wrote a 60-page study on her. He numbered all the illogicalities and falsehoods of her diary…”

1. “On the 14th of January 1982 Vicka, Marija, and little Jakov came to visit me. Vicka began to speak quite nervously because she was speaking falsehoods. She said, ‘Our Lady sent us to you to tell you that you are too harsh with Franciscans…’ In what way? ‘We don’t know!’ Two Franciscan chaplains in Mostar, Ivica Vego and Ivan Prusina, which the bishop sought to remove from Mostar because of disorder and disobedience towards the faithful of the newly-established cathedral parish in Mostar, defended themselves before their superiors by saying they would not leave Mostar because Our Lady, through Vicka, told them not to leave. This was mentioned to me by a member of the Franciscan Provincial Council.”

“I asked Vicka at our meeting: ‘Did Our Lady mention anything about the Mostar chaplains, Vego and Prusina?’ ‘She did not. We don’t know them,’ responded all three. Our conversation lasted 30 minutes, and I taped all of it. I repeated the question of the chaplains of Mostar several times, and they always responded, ‘We don’t know them.’ Later on, I found from Vicka’s diary that they knew the chaplains very well. It was clear to me that they were lying, yet I did not want to mention this to them in order to maintain their confidence during our conversations.”

catholicdoors.com/isit/isit10.htm

 

[Tigg]

I’ll admit it! I have vacillated back and forth with this one.

As others have pointed out, all the writings of the saints and mystics have consistently stated obedience to be one of the very highest virtues. The bad fruit coming from Vlasic and the material prosperity of the seers is disturbing, to say the very least.

But I keep going back to the purported messages of the BVM. Is not the basic message coming from Medj. the same as Fatima and Akita and the other approved apparitions, that is to say, Mary is requesting prayer, penance and fasting for the sins of mankind. Nothing wrong with that message!

However, I am disturbed by the fact that many of the faithful have gone there multiple times. I would ask WHY? Some would say for the peace they find or the healing they seek. I’ve not followed this too closely - have there been any reported healings? Even so, we are not to look for miraculous events or signs and wonders as the staple of our faith. We are to love, obey and serve God in daily life without benefit of extraordinary consolations. AND, what greater miracle or consolation do we have than the Real Presence upon our altars? Are these people continually going there for the spiritual “high” they perceive they are getting? Are they looking for an “experience” of God rather than G_od HIMSELF? Many church doctors have warned against this type of shallow spirituality.

 

[Adonis33]

And now the rest of the story…
queenship.org/productdetails.cfm?sku=3062
medjugorje-online.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9039
marytv.tv/html/book.html
ewtn.com/expert/answers/medjugorje.htm

Jurisdiction has been taken away from the local ordinary by the Vatican. The Vatican can never rule in favor of an apparition until it has concluded. They would have had a moral obligation to condemn it by now if there was anything against the faith of the Church.I will not risk condemning what may be our blessed mother’s work as diabolical or deception. Think about it, are any of you qualified to rule on this matter? How will you answer to our lady if you are wrong, and worked against her plans?. Medjugorje has not been condemned. The Vatican itself has taken over the reins and is still investigating. I will summit in obedience to whatever the Vatican rules.

Only private pilgrimages are allowed - not official pilgrimages. You can go - but a Church cannot sponser a pilgrimage.

Bishop Gemma - a Vatican exorcist - thinks it a deciept:

Bishop Gemma, the most senior exorcist in the Catholic Church until his retirement two years ago, said he personally believed the phenomenon to be a “scandal” and a “diabolical deceit”.

catholicherald.co.uk/articles/a0000299.shtml

People follow this fraud with cultish zeal. Sadly - when the Vatican finally shuts this hoax down - I believe many will still follow it.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

I’ll admit it! I have vacillated back and forth with this one.

As others have pointed out, all the writings of the saints and mystics have consistently stated obedience to be one of the very highest virtues. The bad fruit coming from Vlasic and the material prosperity of the seers is disturbing, to say the very least.

But I keep going back to the purported messages of the BVM. Is not the basic message coming from Medj. the same as Fatima and Akita and the other approved apparitions, that is to say, Mary is requesting prayer, penance and fasting for the sins of mankind. Nothing wrong with that message!

Except that part of the message also is that all religions are equal, and that God doesn’t call for people to convert to Catholicism.

However, I am disturbed by the fact that many of the faithful have gone there multiple times. I would ask WHY? Some would say for the peace they find or the healing they seek. I’ve not followed this too closely - have there been any reported healings? Even so, we are not to look for miraculous events or signs and wonders as the staple of our faith. We are to love, obey and serve God in daily life without benefit of extraordinary consolations. AND, what greater miracle or consolation do we have than the Real Presence upon our altars? Are these people continually going there for the spiritual “high” they perceive they are getting? Are they looking for an “experience” of God rather than G_od HIMSELF? Many church doctors have warned against this type of shallow spirituality.

Agreed, and I think this is a big part of the popularity of Medjugorje. The 40,000 messages the Virgin Mary supposedly gave tend to be rather boring and meaningless in content. Almost no one who goes to Medjugorje has read or knows the content of many of these messages either.

Have you read the interview with Bishop Zanic I posted in posts 42 and 44? It’s quite illuminating on the topic of whether or not these apparitions are real, as he goes into some of his reasons for rejecting them. He gives very good reasons.

There have been reported healings and miracles, though from what I’ve heard, these reports have always proven unverifiable. I myself got in touch with some Medjugorje leaders to try to track down some photos of apparitions taken in Medjugorje, so that I could prove they were real (I wanted to use them in a book I was writing). They told me they couldn’t trace the sources as their computer database including names and contact information had broken down.

Even if there are real miracles and healings going on, this leaves three possibilities:

1. The apparitions are real.
2. God is simply rewarding the faith of pilgrims who go there honestly seeking Him. He says in the Scripture, after all, “your faith has healed you.”
3. The devil is performing signs to lead people astray.

 

[sauce]

Except that part of the message also is that all religions are equal, and that God doesn’t call for people to convert to Catholicism.

The real question is when non-Catholics see all of the “instruments for making fire”
but then have to ask, “where’s the fire?” why would they want to convert to
Catholicism?

Why doesn’t the Church pray for the conversion of Jews to Christ at Easter Liturgy anymore?

I find it interesting.

 

[The_Rock]

I have made no judgement as to the validity of the apparitions. I will wait for the Vatican commission’s ruling. However lets be clear about some of the criticisms.
1 That all religions are the same or equal… This is the heresy of Indifferentism. If this was what the “lady” said in Medjugorje the visions would have to be false. However what did she say…

“All religions are dear to my son. It is you on earth who are divided. We are all children of God. The Muslims and the Orthodox for the same reason as Catholics are equal before my son and me. All religions are not equal. All men are equal before God. It does not suffice to belong to the Catholic Church to be saved. It is necessary to respect and obey the commandants of God in following one’s conscience. Those who are not Catholics are no less creatures made in the image of God and destined ultimately to live in the house of God. Salvation is available to everyone without exception. Only those who refuse God deliberately are condemned by their own choice.”

2 This laicized priest is proof the apparitions are false…
The priest long ago stopped contact with the visionaries. It seems from evident that at some point he went in the wrong direction. I was never familiar with him but certainly he would not be the first priest who showed a certain level of sanctity and later fell from grace. Also he is not one of the visionaries.
3 Material prosperity of the visionaries proves they are false…I have never been there but people who have say that the larger houses they own are used for housing visitors and that the visionaries only use one floor. Also the Church has had a multitude of canonized saints who were wealthy (even kings and queens)
4 Opposition by the local Bishop…He no longer has the authority to rule on the apparitions. The official from the Vatican said his views are to be seen as the Bishops personal opinions. Lourdes and Fatima were initially opposed by the local ordinary as well.
5 The sheer length of time that the apparitions have gone on proves they are false… The apparitions at Laus (which enjoys the highest level of official recognition by the Church of any apparition) went on for 54 years!
6 Statements by prominent Catholics against Medjugorje… Equally prominent Catholics who believed in Medjugorje, including Blessed Mother Theresa who said she believed Medjugorje was the fulfilment of Fatima

I will wait for the Vatican to rule and will refrain from judging the apparitions as false, a fraud,a hoax, a deception of the devil etc. as some here have done, neither will I judge them as absolutely true as others elsewhere have.

 

[Adonis33]

I have made no judgement as to the validity of the apparitions. I will wait for the Vatican commission’s ruling. However lets be clear about some of the criticisms.
1 That all religions are the same or equal… This is the heresy of Indifferentism. If this was what the “lady” said in Medjugorje the visions would have to be false. However what did she say…

2 This laicized priest is proof the apparitions are false…
The priest long ago stopped contact with the visionaries. It seems from evident that at some point he went in the wrong direction. I was never familiar with him but certainly he would not be the first priest who showed a certain level of sanctity and later fell from grace. Also he is not one of the visionaries.
3 Material prosperity of the visionaries proves they are false…I have never been there but people who have say that the larger houses they own are used for housing visitors and that the visionaries only use one floor. Also the Church has had a multitude of canonized saints who were wealthy (even kings and queens)
4 Opposition by the local Bishop…He no longer has the authority to rule on the apparitions. The official from the Vatican said his views are to be seen as the Bishops personal opinions. Lourdes and Fatima were initially opposed by the local ordinary as well.
5 The sheer length of time that the apparitions have gone on proves they are false… The apparitions at Laus (which enjoys the highest level of official recognition by the Church of any apparition) went on for 54 years!
6 Statements by prominent Catholics against Medjugorje… Equally prominent Catholics who believed in Medjugorje, including Blessed Mother Theresa who said she believed Medjugorje was the fulfilment of Fatima

I will wait for the Vatican to rule and will refrain from judging the apparitions as false, a fraud,a hoax, a deception of the devil etc. as some here have done, neither will I judge them as absolutely true as others elsewhere have.

If the following is from the alleged appartition: All religions are dear to my son, I find that pretty disturbing.

I have no problem judging what is going on as a hoax, that is my opinion. I think in these matters it is important to rely on our good judgement in light of our faith. I realize that many people are praying more due to the alleged apparitions (not a bad thing) - however - people also are called to more prayer after seeing Jesus/Mary in tortillas, skillets, the side of buildings, in potato chips etc… Does not make them legit.

If the “visionaries” are indeed seeing something - it isn’t holy.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

I have made no judgement as to the validity of the apparitions. I will wait for the Vatican commission’s ruling. However lets be clear about some of the criticisms.
1 That all religions are the same or equal… This is the heresy of Indifferentism. If this was what the “lady” said in Medjugorje the visions would have to be false. However what did she say…

Bishop Zanic said that in conversation with the visionaries, they told him all religions were equal. Perhaps they revised that statement later, but that’s what he said they told him, and that was one of the important reasons he gave when explaining why he did not believe in the apparitions.

Also, the statement you quoted her as making, “all religions are dear to my Son,” is wildly different from the Bible and Church Fathers, who refer to all religions as either idolatry or heresy except for Catholicism. While there are elements of truth in these other religions to appreciate and love, this is very different from saying, “all religions are dear to my Son,” without any distinctions regarding the falsehood in all religions but Catholicism. At another time, Mary supposedly told the visionaries that she did not call people to convert to Catholicism, and all religions are “basically the same.” This is wrong and runs directly counter to Church doctrine.

2 This laicized priest is proof the apparitions are false…
The priest long ago stopped contact with the visionaries. It seems from evident that at some point he went in the wrong direction. I was never familiar with him but certainly he would not be the first priest who showed a certain level of sanctity and later fell from grace. Also he is not one of the visionaries.

He was their spiritual advisor, their mentor and guide, and they said he was a living saint. While his behavior doesn’t prove falsehood in them, it does raise questions.

3 Material prosperity of the visionaries proves they are false…I have never been there but people who have say that the larger houses they own are used for housing visitors and that the visionaries only use one floor. Also the Church has had a multitude of canonized saints who were wealthy (even kings and queens)

Kings, queens and lords and such have a state in life of which wealth is a necessary part. They have a responsibility to use their wealth wisely rather than to be impoverished, and custom and culture built them into the place they were established in. But the wealth of the Medjugorje visionaries comes from the apparitions. They get huge profit from making appearances at conferences and other financial arrangements at Medjugorje. The saints did not earn money off of the apparitions. Kings, queens and nobles had money because of their status and they used it well on behalf of others. The Medjugorje visionaries started poor and came to riches because of profits earned through publicity and appearances and other events. They didn’t use this money for God but to get super high class mansions and cars and fancy goods. They’re blowing the money away. I challenge you to find one other saint in history, whose apparitions are recognized by the Church, who used their money in this way and profited directly from their claims about the apparitions.

4 Opposition by the local Bishop…He no longer has the authority to rule on the apparitions. The official from the Vatican said his views are to be seen as the Bishops personal opinions. Lourdes and Fatima were initially opposed by the local ordinary as well.

The fact that the Vatican has now assigned a Commission to go over the matter again doesn’t affect the direct disobedience of the priests, the Franciscan brothers, and Fr. Vlasic to the bishop during the time the bishop definitely did have jurisdiction. He called on them in the name of obedience to submit to him and they defied him, the apparitions said “the bishop is wrong,” and the priests said they didn’t have to obey his command that they leave Mostar because Mary told them through the visionary that they didn’t have to go. All these religious priests and brothers were defrocked or suspended by their orders, amidst scandals. The visionaries claimed the apparitions supported them. They deliberately fought Church authority.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

5 The sheer length of time that the apparitions have gone on proves they are false… The apparitions at Laus (which enjoys the highest level of official recognition by the Church of any apparition) went on for 54 years!

The length of time is not proof, to me. It is a problem, though, because the 40,000 messages are repetitious and appear to have no content of particular meaning or significance. Take this month’s message, for example: “Dear children! May this time be a time of prayer for you. Thank you for having responded to my call.”
Here’s a link of the messages of 2009. medjugorje.org/msg09.htm
Here are a bunch of the messages. I encourage you to read through them. medjugorje.org/olmmsg.htm
The Rock:

6 Statements by prominent Catholics against Medjugorje… Equally prominent Catholics who believed in Medjugorje, including Blessed Mother Theresa who said she believed Medjugorje was the fulfilment of Fatima

The statements by prominent Catholics against Medjugorje are to me not proof against it. I agree with you here. There are voices both for and against. To me, the false doctrine and defiance of Church authority are the big reasons against, and they are sufficient. There are a large number of lesser evidences against it that are still important, though. Some of these have been posted here and some not.
The Rock:

I will wait for the Vatican to rule and will refrain from judging the apparitions as false, a fraud,a hoax, a deception of the devil etc. as some here have done, neither will I judge them as absolutely true as others elsewhere have.

Fine, that’s your perogative. If others of us feel we have seen enough information to come to private conclusions, we also have that freedom. The Church will make the final call.

 

[Victorious]

Take this month’s message, for example: “Dear children! May this time be a time of prayer for you. Thank you for having responded to my call.”

See, now there’s a problem I have right there: “Thank you for having responded to my call.” Where in the Bible do we see God thanking anybody? When, during the course of a legitimate apparition, do we see the Blessed Mother thanking anybody? I have a really hard time believing that the Mother of God would spend so much as one second flattering the vanity of her children.

Then, of course, there’s the problem with the messages still coming out in the first place. Three years ago, Bishop Peric told them to knock it off with the messages in the parish. Maybe they’re exploiting some loophole…I don’t know. But clearly, if they are still publishing messages, they’re not cutting it out.

As for former Fr. Vlasic, if you look at the documents linked earlier in the thread regarding his reduction to the lay state, as well as the statement by the Bishop of Mostar last year regarding his canonical status at the time, it seems pretty clear that this guy and the Medjugorje affair are not separate in the mind of Rome. And if you read the 1990 statement by the then Bishop of Mostar that has also been linked and quoted earlier in the thread, you see that the Bishop flatly pinned upon then Fr. Vlasic the responsibility for the whole business.

 

[The_Rock]

Lief said:

Also, the statement you quoted her as making, “all religions are dear to my Son,” is wildly different from the Bible and Church Fathers, who refer to all religions as either idolatry or heresy except for Catholicism. While there are elements of truth in these other religions to appreciate and love, this is very different from saying, “all religions are dear to my Son,” without any distinctions regarding the falsehood in all religions but Catholicism. At another time, Mary supposedly told the visionaries that she did not call people to convert to Catholicism, and all religions are “basically the same.” This is wrong and runs directly counter to Church doctrine

I too have reservations about the statement “all religions are dear to my Son”. However in the same message she says that all religions are not equal. Does this square up with the Church’s recent teachings on respecting other religions, and not rejecting what is good and true in them while still realizing the Catholic Church contains the fullness of truth?

I have never seen the quote where Mary does not call people to convert to Catholicism. Or the quote that all religions are “basically the same.” Could you show me the message where Mary supposedly said these things?

Just trying to sort out what is rumor from what has actually said.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Here you go, The Rock:

Oct. 1, 1981: “All religions are equal before God,” says the Virgin. (Chronological Corpus of Medjugorje, p. 317) geocities.com/athens/oracle/9463/medjugorje.html This article has a good deal of quotes and citations involving false doctrine taught at Medjugorje.

Here’s where I got the interview portion regarding whether or not Mary said people should be Catholics: rosesfromheaven.com/medjugorje.html

Question: "Is the Blessed Mother calling all people to be Catholic?

Seer Vicka Ivankovic: “No. The Blessed Mother says all religions are dear to her and her Son.” (Janice T. Connell, The Visions of the Children, The Apparitions of the Blessed Mother at Medjugorje, St. Martin’s Press, August 1992).

And here’s a number of dubious interview comments I found on Medjugorje’s own website:
medjugorje.org/wpart3.htm

S: It is important that people of good faith, regardless of denomination, not be turned against each other. But tell me more about this. What did the Madonna say about this?

I: The Madonna said that religions are separated in the earth, but the people of all religions are accepted by Her Son.

S: Does that mean that all people go to Heaven?

I: It depends on what they deserve.

S: Yes, but many have never heard about Jesus.

I: Jesus knows all about that; I don’t. The Madonna said, basically, religions are similar; but many people have separated themselves, because of religion, and become enemies of each other.

S: I thank you, Ivanka, for this conversation and testimony!

M: She also emphasized the failings of religious people, especially in small villages - for example, here in Medjugorje, where there is separation from Serbians (i.e., Serbian Orthodox) and Moslems. This separation is not good. The Madonna always stresses that there is but one God, and that people have enforced unnatural separation. One cannot truly believe, be a true Christian, if he does not respect other religions as well. You do not really believe in God if you make fun of other religions.

Where, I wonder, does this leave Elijah, who made fun of the worship of Baal in the books of Kings? Or the Early Church Fathers who criticized in sometimes vitriolic language heresies and idolatry? St. Jerome was mocking and derisive of Helvidious’ new heresies against the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin. Therefore, like Elijah and many other saints, according to the visionaries of Medjugorje he would have “not really believed in God.”

How, also, does a Catholic reconcile the claim that one must respect other religions with the claim of Jesus that people of other faiths must convert to Catholicism to be saved? Respect other believers, yes. Other religions (idolatry), no. To the extent that they deviate from Catholicism, they have the power to lead souls into Hell. Respect people worshipping in other faiths, yes, but respect idolatry, no. That is a false modern notion.

Interestingly, in these interviews on the Medjugorje.org website, one of the visionaries says that Mary asked them to join the religious life, if they would. None of the visionaries ended up doing that.

Mirjana also says, “you must respect each person’s religion …Keep your own for yourselves and your children.” Truly a message I can imagine the devil wanting people to accept. Keep your own faith to yourself and your children, and respect idolatry.
theotokos.org.uk/pages/articles/medjugor.html
Here’s more from the original interview I was quoting:

T: What, then, is the role of Jesus Christ, if the Moslem religion is a good religion?

M: We did not discuss that. She merely explained, and deplored, the lack of religious unity, “especially in the villages.” She said that everybody’s religion should be respected, and, of course, one’s own.

So Islam is a good religion and people should be unified in religion in spite of their important doctrinal differences- differences that can mean salvation for people. These differences, to the visionaries at Medjugorje, don’t matter all that much. It’s unbelief, atheism, that they condemn, but not any religion or heresy. In the context of the interviews, if you read them all the way, it’s clear that while they talk several times about conversion, they never suggest people should convert from heresies or different religions. They only speak of atheists needing to convert.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Continued from the Medjugorje website:

S: To whom are the Madonna’s messages sent?

I: To the whole world.

S: What are the messages?

I: Peace, Conversion, Fasting, Penance, Prayer.

S: Which is the most important?

I: Peace.

S: Why peace?

I: When everyone in the world is at peace, everything is possible.

This sounds like one of the beauty models that goes up on a stage on television to ask for “world peace.” Conversion, fasting, penance and prayer are ways to reach peace, but this apparition supposedly speaks of peace as something separate from them, more important, and superseding these. This “peace” can be reworded, I think, as modern “tolerance.”

And here is how the visionary, from her conversations with Mary, believes people can go to Heaven:

T: Did you ask about the conditions for a person to enter Heaven?

M: No I didn’t; but, we can probably say what they are. God is not looking for great believers but simply for those who respect their faith and live peacefully, without malice, meanness, falsehood.

T: This is your interpretation, your understanding?

M: Yes. After I talked to the Madonna, I came to that conclusion; No one has to do great miracles or do great penance; merely live a simple, peaceful life.

Listen to this:

T: Did She talk to you about the other visionaries and further apparitions?

M: She told me I am - well, more mature than the others and therefore I must help them, spend time with them and talk with them. This will make things easier for them and for me. We are to understand each other and stay together - united.

Here’s another interesting part:

T: Did the Madonna tell you whether many people go to Hell today?

M: I asked her about that recently, and She said that, today, most people go to purgatory, the next greatest number go to Hell, and only a few go directly to Heaven.

According to this, most of the people in the world today will end up in Heaven (even though most must go through Purgatory first). This is a claim that most people today are being saved. It is very different from Fatima, which only mentioned Purgatory briefly in order to urge people to pray for those in Purgatory, and then went on to describe in detail the torments of Hell and how vast numbers are falling there. It is also in line with Mary’s supposed claim that she is not calling people to convert.
rosesfromheaven.com:

What then is the role of Jesus Christ in Medjugorjian theology? We submit to you one of their statements on this question:

“God directs all denominations and confessions as a king directs his subjects through his ministers.” What kind of a statement is this? Does this mean that God is directing the Moslems in their “holy wars”, the Jews in their rejection of His Son, the Messias; the Protestants in their attacks against everything Catholic, the Zoroastrians in their fire-worshipping? We quote again from the seers: “Diversity of religion is no obstacle.” This is outright heresy!

rosesfromheaven.com/medjugorje.html

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Lief said:

I too have reservations about the statement “all religions are dear to my Son”. However in the same message she says that all religions are not equal. Does this square up with the Church’s recent teachings on respecting other religions, and not rejecting what is good and true in them while still realizing the Catholic Church contains the fullness of truth?

Saying all religions are dear to Jesus is completely out of line with Catholic doctrine. It is not the same as saying there are elements of good in them that should be respected. Religions that deviate from Catholicism, in the past, have gone by two names to the Church: Idolatry and Heresy. This statement can be rewritten, “all idolatries and heresies are dear to my Son . . . even if they aren’t all equal.”

I have never seen the quote where Mary does not call people to convert to Catholicism. Or the quote that all religions are “basically the same.” Could you show me the message where Mary supposedly said these things?

Just trying to sort out what is rumor from what has actually said.

That’s great. I’ve provided the links and sources for those. Their claim that all religions aren’t equal sounds like a revision of earlier statements, considering that Bishop Zanic and various other sources I’ve now cited have all said the visionaries claimed all religions to be equal.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

See, now there’s a problem I have right there: “Thank you for having responded to my call.” Where in the Bible do we see God thanking anybody? When, during the course of a legitimate apparition, do we see the Blessed Mother thanking anybody? I have a really hard time believing that the Mother of God would spend so much as one second flattering the vanity of her children.

Almost all her messages to the visionaries end that way. If you think that’s flattering, listen to this one, from the Medjugorje Organization’s own website:

T: Did She talk to you about the other visionaries and further apparitions?

M: She told me I am - well, more mature than the others and therefore I must help them, spend time with them and talk with them. This will make things easier for them and for me. We are to understand each other and stay together - united.

medjugorje.org/wpart3.htm

 

[Tigg]

If others of us feel we have seen enough information to come to private conclusions, we also have that freedom. The Church will make the final call.

Yes, and either way, we need to remember no one is under obligation to believe in private revelation.

 

[tm30]

Continued from the Medjugorje website:

This sounds like one of the beauty models that goes up on a stage on television to ask for “world peace.” Conversion, fasting, penance and prayer are ways to reach peace, but this apparition supposedly speaks of peace as something separate from them, more important, and superseding these. This “peace” can be reworded, I think, as modern “tolerance.”

And here is how the visionary, from her conversations with Mary, believes people can go to Heaven:

Listen to this:

Here’s another interesting part:

According to this, most of the people in the world today will end up in Heaven (even though most must go through Purgatory first). This is a claim that most people today are being saved. It is very different from Fatima, which only mentioned Purgatory briefly in order to urge people to pray for those in Purgatory, and then went on to describe in detail the torments of Hell and how vast numbers are falling there. It is also in line with Mary’s supposed claim that she is not calling people to convert.

rosesfromheaven.com/medjugorje.html

By the way you need to be careful of sites you link to. I’d like to highlight the following quote from the link above:

I wish to halt this apparition “factory” dead in its tracks, as it continues to spawn an endless number of false apparitions here in the United States: Nancy Fowler and her “apparitions” in Conyers, Georgia; Rosa Lopez of Hollywood, Florida; Theresa Lopez of Denver, Colorado; John Leary in New York State…and countless others. All these so-called seers admit that their revelations started immediately after, and as a consequence, of their visiting the apparition site in Medjugorje. The devil appears to be promoting all these false visionaries in order to bring discredit upon the true Apparitions such as those at Bayside.

Unfortunately, that statement, by itself, discredits the rest of the site. The author condemns Medjugorje, yet promotes BAYSIDE???

Disclosure; I do not believe that Medjugorje is an authentic phenomena. However, it’s things like this that remind me that there are agendas on both sides, and we have to be careful to weed out any hint of it when determining who we listen to. The Bayside reference made me laugh out loud, since it’s already been officially declared a sham.