Four Cardinals Formally Ask Pope for Clarity on Amoris Laetitia

[twf]

ewtn.co.uk/news/holy-see/dean-of-roman-rota-warns-pope-could-strip-dubia-cardinals-of-their-cardinalate

Archbishop Pio Vito Pinto, Dean of the Roman Rota, told a conference in Spain that Cardinal Burke and the three cardinals who submitted the dubia to Pope Francis “could lose their Cardinalate” for causing “grave scandal” by making the dubia public. The Dean of the Roman Rota went on to accuse Cardinals Raymond Burke, Carlo Caffarra, Walter Brandmüller and Joachim Meisner of questioning the Holy Spirit. Archbishop Pio Vito Pinto made his astounding accusations during a conference to religious in Spain.

 

[Robert_Bay]

MODERATOR NOTE

I have recently had to close a number of threads that have grown uncharitable on the topic of the Cardinals’ publication of their questions. If members are not able to discuss this topic without attacking Catholic clergy and each other I will close the thread.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

Could this not be what Our Lady spoke of when she said “bishop against bishop, cardinal against cardinal”?

I think it was a reference to the strife of the twentieth century or maybe a reference to communists trying to infiltrate the Church in the early twentieth century. But I don’t think she was referring to AL. I think it has more to do with the twentieth century. Although I think it’s still around,but definitely not exclusive to today.

 

[pnewton]

Could this not be what Our Lady spoke of when she said “bishop against bishop, cardinal against cardinal”?

Well, this is hardly new in the Church. The SSPX started in a similar fashion of a bishop acting contrary to the Pope, and he is a saint. There are a lot of similar cases.

I really think the laity get too worked up over the inner workings of the Church. Read the New Testament and you find conflict from the beginning. We are a family, but we are not the perfect family. We need to maintain our love for all and tolerance in all areas where disagreement is allowable.

 

[kyrie03]

Sounds like threat of exile….not to worry, the Church has weathered this storm before.

Interesting analysis of ambiguity that wasn’t corrected in 300’s leading to the Arian crisis when St. Athanasius was excommunicated by Pope Liberius. Precise language DOES matter!

“The Arian crisis and the current controversy about Amoris laetitia: a parallel” by Claudio Pieranton aemaet.de/index.php/aemaet/article/view/40/pdf

Quote from article:

This is precisely the stage at which we can say we find ourselves at this moment: it has scarcely begun, and promises to be not without obstacles. We cannot predict its duration, but must have the certainty of faith, that God would not allow this grave crisis, were it not for the superior good of souls. It will certainly be the Holy Spirit who will give us the solution, enlightening this Pope or his successor, maybe even through the convening of a new Ecumenical Council. However, in the interim, each of us is called, in humility and prayer, to give his testimony and contribution. And the Lord will certainly hold each of us to account.

 

[LordHaveMercy]

Pope Francis absolutely could do this and he would not have to give any explanation or answer any questions about it. He could laicize them as well, if he chose to do so.

 

[Chipper]

Pope Francis absolutely could do this and he would not have to give any explanation or answer any questions about it. He could laicize them as well, if he chose to do so.

If they strip Cardinal Burke, then I convert to “atheist” plain and simple.

 

[esieffe]

It does have some of the earmarks of a threat.

The Cardinals issued an ultimatum. Pretty bold and audacious. This is the response an ultimatum can evoke when the Cardinals flaunt their lack of obedience. [setting a poor example for countless others]

Padre Pio even when wronged by Bishops and even a Pope was still none the less obedient, and yet still his ministry prevailed. He was able to accomplish his mission and still was obedient.

Same for Sister Faustina. She was treated poorly at times by her order, and Christ told her to be obedient. Look what she did. Right or wrong, these Cardinals need to remember their orders. Who is to say that the Pope does not know what he is doing with this issue.

 

[esieffe]

If they strip Cardinal Burke, then I convert to “atheist” plain and simple.

I like him too, but I would not jump in the bottomless pit for him.

 

[LordHaveMercy]

If they strip Cardinal Burke, then I convert to “atheist” plain and simple.

It’s not a good idea to jump overboard when you’re on a ship that can’t sink, no matter what you think of the captain.

The Cardinals issued an ultimatum. Pretty bold and audacious. This is the response an ultimatum can evoke when the Cardinals flaunt their lack of obedience. [setting a poor example for countless others]

It’s for the Pope to judge the Cardinals’ obedience and determine appropriate sanctions. He doesn’t need our advice, and If he wants our advice, he’ll contact us directly.

 

[Chipper]

It’s not a good idea to jump overboard when you’re on a ship that can’t sink, no matter what you think of the captain.

If it were just the captain then I wouldn’t go. It would be because the majority of leaders and authority allowing it.

 

[LordHaveMercy]

If it were just the captain then I wouldn’t go. It would be because the majority of leaders and authority allowing it.

“We are not baptized into the hierarchy; do not receive the Cardinals sacramentally; will not spend an eternity in the beatific vision of the pope. … Christ is the point. I, myself, admire the present pope, but even if I criticized him as harshly as some do, even if his successor proved to be as bad as some of those who have gone before, even if I find the church, as I have to live with it, a pain in the neck, I should still say that nothing a pope (or a priest) could do or say would make me wish to leave the church, although I might well wish that they would leave. “ -Frank J Sheed

 

[Chipper]

I like him too, but I would not jump in the bottomless pit for him.

The church is the “pillar and foundation of truth”…Or supposed to be.

If Cardinal Burke is ostracized, then what happened to the pillar and foundation of truth"?
Cardinal Burke represents the Truth when he asked the questions. And there is a lot more wrong with AL then just the questions he asked. I think he was being polite in not raising all the questions - yet.

No sir for me, if they strip Cardinal Burke, then there is no longer any “Pillar and Foundation of Truth”…

 

[Oneofthewomen]

The church is the “pillar and foundation of truth”…Or supposed to be.

If Cardinal Burke is ostracized, then what happened to the pillar and foundation of truth"?
Cardinal Burke represents the Truth when he asked the questions. And there is a lot more wrong with AL then just the questions he asked. I think he was being polite in not raising all the questions - yet.

No sir for me, if they strip Cardinal Burke, then there is no longer any “Pillar and Foundation of Truth”…

Cardinal Burke is not the Supreme Pontiff.
This is a very misguided view. I will pray for you and all who feel the same way.

 

[Anne1964]

Please note that in the article it was Archbishop Pio Vito Pinto, Dean of the Roman Rota who made the statement regarding the possibility of stripping the Cardinals of their red hats. Pope Francis has made no such statement.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

If it were just the captain then I wouldn’t go. It would be because the majority of leaders and authority allowing it.

No person in the Church – no one – has any authority whatsoever except by the gracious leave of the Vicar of Christ on Earth. Ultimately, the authority of His Holiness trumps every other office and every other premise of jurisdiction or governance.

From the Dean of the College of Cardinals and the Camerlengo of the Holy Roman Church to the newest baptised member, all owe the Pope filial submission and obedience.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I think when we are in heaven we will be shocked at what a pivotal time this is in salvation history.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Pope Francis absolutely could do this and he would not have to give any explanation or answer any questions about it. He could laicize them as well, if he chose to do so.

What you write is absolutely correct, in each of it elements.

Decades ago, I pronounced a vow of obedience to the Vicar of Christ then gloriously reigning and to his successors in perpetuity. And that total and absolute commitment and engagement I made then is as fresh and as earnest today as it was all those decades ago.

In my line of apostolic succession are a number of popes. I have seen several enthroned upon the chair of Peter…three from my own lifetime beatified and canonised…but each of them, so different from the other in various ways, the Vicar of Christ and the sole Visible Head of the Church to whom all allegiance is due.

As my earthly pilgrimage draws toward its end, I stand unflinchingly and unhesitatingly and with full voice to defend the Successor of Peter to my last breath – whatever that defence required and against whomsoever such action need be directed.

Given the work of my life and my priesthood, the maxim Ubi Petrus, Ibi Ecclesia were far more than words or a motto…they were the foundation of my life and priesthood and I pray to go to my grave thus, for I owe more than I would divulge to the kindness of several of the men who sat on the throne of the fisherman as the Successors of Peter.

 

[Wandile]

No person in the Church – no one – has any authority whatsoever except by the gracious leave of the Vicar of Christ on Earth. Ultimately, the authority of His Holiness trumps every other office and every other premise of jurisdiction or governance.

From the Dean of the College of Cardinals and the Camerlengo of the Holy Roman Church to the newest baptised member, all owe the Pope filial submission and obedience.

Except when he teaches we error as in the case of Pope John XXII

***VENERABLE POPE PIUS IX ** 1846-1878)

“If a future pope teaches anything contrary to the Catholic Faith,
do not follow him.”

**POPE INNOCENT III **(CA. 1160-1216)

    "The pope should not flatter himself about his power, nor should he

rashly glory in his honor and high estate, because the less he is judged by
man, the more he is judged by God. Still the less can the Roman Pontiff
glory, because he can be judged by men, or rather, can be shown to be
already judged, if for example he should wither away into heresy, because he
who does not believe is already judged. In such a case it should be said of
him: ‘If salt should lose its savor, it is good for nothing but to be cast
out and trampled under foot by men.’" (Sermo 4)

CARDINAL JUAN OF TORQUEMADA (1388-1468)

"Although it clearly follows from the circumstances that the Pope
can err at times, and command things which must not be done, that we are
not to be simply obedient to him in all things, that does not show that
he must not be obeyed by all when his commands are good. To know in
what cases he is to be obeyed and in what not,… it is said in the Acts
of the Apostles: ‘One ought to obey God rather than man’; **therefore,
were the Pope to command anything against Holy Scripture, or the
articles of faith, or the truth of the Sacraments, or the commands of
the natural or divine law, he ought not to be obeyed, *but in such
commands, to be passed over (despiciendus)…"

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Please note that in the article it was Archbishop Pio Vito Pinto, Dean of the Roman Rota who made the statement regarding the possibility of stripping the Cardinals of their red hats. Pope Francis has made no such statement.

As is indeed quite proper of the Dean of the Rota to articulate, given the office that is his.

For indeed, the offiicials who surround the Vicar of Christ in the various offices of administration of the Church at her highest level, and above all the curia, should be the ones to speak out with the very greatest of force and above all with the authority which was entrusted to them by the Pope…an authority which they exercise at the favour of as well as in the service of the Church’s visible head.