P
Polak
Guest
No thanks. One is already too many.
M
Montrose
Guest
Why would you think that matters? We are bound by both infallible and non-infallible doctrine.
Doctrine does not change.
A
AlNg
Guest
I thought that doctrine can develop as new evidence comes in.
F
F_Marturana
Guest
Here’s the deal. I kiss my husband at the sign of peace. I also kiss my kids. And my sister if we are all at mass together.
It’s the same exact way. Brief kiss on the cheek.
Is it not possible for two gays to be chaste and share a kiss like that?
That’s really a scandal?
I’m adding, I thought this reply was more recent. I misread the time, and thought it said “hours” ago instead of days.
It’s the same exact way. Brief kiss on the cheek.
Is it not possible for two gays to be chaste and share a kiss like that?
That’s really a scandal?
I’m adding, I thought this reply was more recent. I misread the time, and thought it said “hours” ago instead of days.
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M
Montrose
Guest
Developing and being explained more clearly is not change.
P
Polak
Guest
You’re missing the point. There might be some room for discussion if he had only said that he hoped the man would be able to kiss his partner like that during the sign of the peace in future and not feel uncomfortable about it. He however said ‘partner or soon to be husband’. There’s a difference.
A
AlNg
Guest
Evolution, change and development are listed in some dictionaries as synonymous.
M
Montrose
Guest
We don’t look to the Oxford Dictionary to know what the Church means.
Doctrine does NOT change.
S
sealabeag
Guest
The statement in question from Fr. James Martin was made to a homosexual man who is “engaged” to another man. So it is in no way the exact same thing. You are a woman, married to a man.
These are two men in an immoral relationship. Who said anything about a brief kiss on the cheek in the aforementioned quote from Fr. Martin?
What exactly does this mean? If two homosexual men are chaste, they are not in a relationship with one another.
Yes, it is. If two men, who are apologetically in a homosexual relationship are kissing one another at Mass, that is a huge scandal.
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B
billsherman
Guest
Just a reminder to those late to this thread: Fr. Martin is a priest in good standing with his order and the Vatican.
P
Polak
Guest
Yep, and he said he would canonise a nun who isn’t in good standing with her order and the Vatican and has disobeyed their orders multiple times. Weird, isn’t it?
O
OraLabora
Guest
Oddly, the Bible does not call slavery an abomination. Yet most would agree today that it is an abomination to own another human being.
A
AlNg
Guest
If slavery is an abomination, why do Americans enslave children by placing them into solitary confinement?
“Every day, children in the justice system face solitary confinement, strip searches, shackling, pepper spray, restraints, and physical and sexual abuse. Children may be locked in cells as small as seven-by-ten feet, 22 to 24 hours per day, with no personal belongings, no access to educational services, counseling or mental health treatment, no interaction with peers and with nothing more than a lightly padded concrete slab to sleep on. They may be pepper-sprayed for simple rule violations, strip-searched after family visits, or shackled when they leave their cells.”
C
choose_to_love
Guest
Mr. Sherman, has Fr. Martin ever, to your knowledge, defined what measure he would use to determine if his approach to evangelization is working? I mean, I am pretty sure he would not reveal any particular individual’s personal faith journey without permission, but more broadly, how does one define whether or not one’s method of evangelization is effective? What would that even look like in theory? Genuine question which hopefully gets the thread back to a question which can be debated.
B
billsherman
Guest
Sorry, I don’t know. I really don’t know terribly much about Fr. Martin. I appreciate that he believes the Catholic way is to build bridges rather than walls, but I don’t know much about how he goes about doing that.
My point is just that he is a priest in good standing with his order and the Vatican. That should mean a lot.
C
choose_to_love
Guest
Fair enough; I don’t know either. I did think Fr. Martin’s book “Jesuit Guide to Almost Everything” was a helpful book, although it doesn’t really address the hot button topics relevant to this thread. Also, the “what-metric” do you use to evaluate an evangelization or preaching style would also apply to a 'fire-and-brimstone approach as well.
T
Toledo
Guest
A few scattered thoughts relative to your posts. I know you strive for holiness, so these are not personal attacks, just my Catholic perspective which differs from your own.
Fr. James Martin Catholic News
This sin on CAF gets more press because so many people do not see it is wrong. Murder of the living gets little coverage because most here agree with the Church’s teaching. Most here agree that physical adultery or theft or unjustified anger or worship of false gods (amongst our religious brothers and sisters) are not good things/a sin, so people don’t feel the need to preach to the choir. However, look at hot button topics…abortion or contraception (sometimes one in the same) or racism or …homosexual unions or acts, those are the ones some here and in society promote or agree with; so those need to be fought. No one here needs to tell each other not to stab someone in the eye with a knife, because most here and in society agree/know this. The lesser concurrence in society, the more we need to preach God’s word.
Welcoming once or twice or thrice is excellent, but when the message is always mercy of God but not adherence to God/God’s justice, that leads people down the wrong path.
Fr. Martin is no different than priests who tell people to “follow your consciences with regards to contraception” or “contraception is okay, the Church is wrong/will change.” He is leading people further down the possible path to damnation.
Fr. James Martin Catholic News
We need zero Fr. Martins. Mercy with no justice is not God’s plan. Ignoring God is unjust.
The Church would be abjectly wrong wrong in the absolute worst way to not preach on sexual sins. Yes, many clergy have fallen, but that is not the time to stop preaching. It shows a weakness to sin in our society in general. I do not know if you believe it or not, but many Saints have stated that sexual sins are one of the great (if not the greatest) ways the majority of people are in Hell. Great Saints too, as you know. The Church must absolutely preach always against sexual problems.
Unfortunately many clergy do not preach against sexual sins. I believe most Catholic clergy preaches well against the type of abortion where you go to the clinic or take an obvious pill, but how many times do we hear about contraception as a sin? Few…and early stage contraception kills many more lives than does later stage deliberate abortion. There are literally hundreds of millions of people who have killed a human life, but do not understand the workings of many forms of contraception. Sexual sins matter a great deal.
I agree that a literal kiss of peace is fine based on time and culture. It only becomes something else if it is meant to reflect sex or lustful desire. By definition it is an element of so-called gay/lesbian/pick your description “marriage”.
This sin on CAF gets more press because so many people do not see it is wrong. Murder of the living gets little coverage because most here agree with the Church’s teaching. Most here agree that physical adultery or theft or unjustified anger or worship of false gods (amongst our religious brothers and sisters) are not good things/a sin, so people don’t feel the need to preach to the choir. However, look at hot button topics…abortion or contraception (sometimes one in the same) or racism or …homosexual unions or acts, those are the ones some here and in society promote or agree with; so those need to be fought. No one here needs to tell each other not to stab someone in the eye with a knife, because most here and in society agree/know this. The lesser concurrence in society, the more we need to preach God’s word.
Welcoming once or twice or thrice is excellent, but when the message is always mercy of God but not adherence to God/God’s justice, that leads people down the wrong path.
Fr. Martin is no different than priests who tell people to “follow your consciences with regards to contraception” or “contraception is okay, the Church is wrong/will change.” He is leading people further down the possible path to damnation.
The problem isn’t that gay/lesbian/letters of your choice sin has been raised to a higher level, but that it is enduring/maintained sin. Many sins are one and done, but the Church has an especial need to preach against sins which we remain entrenched in.
We need zero Fr. Martins. Mercy with no justice is not God’s plan. Ignoring God is unjust.
The Church would be abjectly wrong wrong in the absolute worst way to not preach on sexual sins. Yes, many clergy have fallen, but that is not the time to stop preaching. It shows a weakness to sin in our society in general. I do not know if you believe it or not, but many Saints have stated that sexual sins are one of the great (if not the greatest) ways the majority of people are in Hell. Great Saints too, as you know. The Church must absolutely preach always against sexual problems.
Unfortunately many clergy do not preach against sexual sins. I believe most Catholic clergy preaches well against the type of abortion where you go to the clinic or take an obvious pill, but how many times do we hear about contraception as a sin? Few…and early stage contraception kills many more lives than does later stage deliberate abortion. There are literally hundreds of millions of people who have killed a human life, but do not understand the workings of many forms of contraception. Sexual sins matter a great deal.
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Currently, yes. . . .
But it is not written in the stone. He pushes the limits with his soft attitude and try to change the pastoral and the doctrine. . . .
I don’t consider that him being in good standing (and he uses this argument against his adversaries) is enough to consider his teachings as Orthodox.
Does he has someone in mind?
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T
Toledo
Guest
Lastly there are thousands of priests over the years who “are in good standing” but who have taught personal beliefs such as contraception being okay. Does that make them justified in God’s view? Just because humans miss justice, doesn’t mean God will/does. I pray for those priests, as their very souls are in extreme danger if they do not convert and confess.