Fr. James Martin

[sealabeag]

Ok, then let me spell it out, with context so we are very clear.
Regarding a homosexual couple, Fr. James Martin said that he hoped that in ten years they would be able to kiss at the sign of peace, during Mass.

If you think that is okay then we are probably on irreconcilable sides of this debate.

 

[FiveLinden]

Ok, then let me spell it out, with context so we are very clear.
Regarding a homosexual couple, Fr. James Martin said that he hoped that in ten years they would be able to kiss at the sign of peace, during Mass.

If you think that is okay then we are probably on irreconcilable sides of this debate

And he said ‘and what about other people who have other things on their consciences?’.

What, exactly, would be wrong with a kiss or greeting between homosexual partners at Mass during the sign of peace? All sorts of people do this. What’s the issue? We are not talking about a suggestion that people engage in sexual behaviour. The context was one of a gay person feeling embarrassed.

I should point out that I am an observer and not on a side in this debate. I’m fine with Catholics having rules about what people can do in Church as long as they are not funded by the community. My participation in this thread is simply that I thought Fr Martin was being misrepresented.

 

[sealabeag]

exactly, would be wrong with a kiss or greeting between homosexual partners at Mass during the sign of peace?

I don’t like doing the “if you can’t see the problem with this” thing in a discussion, but… Are you non-Catholic? No problem with your presence or being part of discussion, glad to have you, but just so I know, because I assumed I was debating with a Catholic.

 

[Montrose]

I’ve never seen anyone kissing during the sign of peace.
I turn to my wife, bow my head and say peace be with you. I then turn the other side, back and front and do the same to other people which they are all doing too.

 

[Bithynian]

I’ve never seen anyone kissing during the sign of peace.

Cheek kissing - both opposite sex and same sex - was fairly common at the sign of peace in a number of parishes that I’ve attended.

 

[FiveLinden]

I don’t like doing the “if you can’t see the problem with this” thing in a discussion, but… Are you non-Catholic? No problem with your presence or being part of discussion, glad to have you, but just so I know, because I assumed I was debating with a Catholic

I am a non-believer. Most people here call me an atheist. I am here because I am interested in why people believe what they do.

 

[sealabeag]

Good to know and happy to have you here! It’s just useful in discussion to know where the other person is coming from. Thanks.

 

[Cathoholic]

Montrose to Anesti33 . . .

YOU are the one who made the claim about the different levels of Hell and YOU are the one that has to come up with the goods.
It is not Church teaching so I can’t prove a negative.

It IS Church teaching.

There is PROPORTIONALITY not only with regards to Hell, but concerning Heaven as well. (Purgatory too.)

ROMANS 2:6-8a 6 For he will render to every man according to his works : 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath …

2nd CORINTHIANS 5:10 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body .

REVELATION 22:12 12 "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done .

PROVERBS 24:12b 12 . . . does not he who weighs the heart perceive it? Does not he who keeps watch over your soul know it, and will he not requite man according to his work ?

HEBREWS 10:28-29 28 A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?

MATTHEW 11:21a, 22-24 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! woe to you, Beth-saida! . . . 22 But I tell you, it shall be more tolerable on the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. 23 And you, Caperna-um, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I tell you that it shall be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you.”

CCC 679 a, c Christ is Lord of eternal life. . . . By rejecting grace in this life, one already judges oneself, receives according to one’s works , and can even condemn oneself for all eternity by rejecting the Spirit of love.589

ST. THOMAS AQUINAS I answer that, Punishment is proportionate to sin. . . .

‘I would willingly endure alone all the sufferings of this world to be raised a degree higher in Heaven and to possess the smallest increase of the knowledge of God’s greatness.’ – St. Teresa of Jesus

 

[Cathoholic]

FiveLinden . . . .

I am here because I am interested in why people believe what they do.

One example. I affirm Jesus as True God and True Man because of reliable witnesses.

 

[graciew]

The kiss on the cheek is a non issue depending on culture.
Here in CAF where the vast majority respect that personal space , no hugging, no touching and no handshaking in general…in the everyday , as is customary culturally, asking about a kiss might sound as more than what it is for a different group of people.
So that you know…
As for Father Martin I haven’t read him, just watched an interview once.
It was interesting , though as it usually happens ,time runs out before the guest can finish his explanations or go deeper into the topics. So there isn’t personally anything too much about him I can say.

 

[FiveLinden]

One example. I affirm Jesus as True God and True Man because of reliable witnesses.

I don’t want to derail the thread but would be happy to discuss the witness issue as ‘proof’. For example I find it remarkable that Matthew, Mark and Luke never say that Jesus is God in any sort of direct way. And do we have any direct testimony from people who knew Jesus? Please think about starting a thread!

 

[AlNg]

It IS Church teaching.

Of course it is. I am flabbergasted to read that more than one person on this thread disagrees with this.

 

[Polak]

Now that I’m allowed to post again, allow me to address some of the points made.

And in those threads he’s been discussed to death. There isn’t anything new to say.

As you know, threads close after being inactive for 14 days. I haven’t had the chance to post in any of the previous threads started on Fr. James Martin, so I started one. Thanks for deciding there isn’t anything new to say on the subject though. I didn’t realise you had the authority to decide when everything that can be said on a subject has been said.

The first claim, about couples ‘being allowed to kiss each other in Church’ is about the sign of peace. He was talking about a situation in which a same-sex couple felt unable to behave in the same way as heterosexual couples. Calling this ‘kissing’ without context is a distortion.

I do feel like some people purposely have their eyes wide shut on this. He clearly, as @sealabeag points out, tells the man he hopes he will be able to kiss his partner or soon to be husband, in church. Why is a Catholic priest saying this? He knows gay marriage is against Church teaching.

The second video categorically does not include the words you attribute to Fr Martin that ‘gay people are not bound by the Church’s teaching on chastity because they have not received it’. The words he uses are ‘for a teaching to be really authoritative it must received by the people of God’.

Listen to the entire recording. He says ‘for a teaching to be really authoritative it is expected that it will be received by the people’. He then says the teaching that LGBT people must remain celibate their entire lives, hasn’t been received by them. He’s clearly implying that this teaching is therefore not authoritative. Again, how can a priest say this?

I do not have a horse in this race

I don’t either whatever that means. As a Catholic though, I don’t like seeing what looks to be a Catholic priest giving sin a pass.

continued

 

[Polak]

The “evidence” presented is paper thin. The first and second link were both channels belonging to hardcore conservative polemic sites – so good job driving traffic to them!

A) It isn’t paper thin. I think you’re ignoring the obvious.

B) Those are the only places I could find a link to recordings. Don’t knock the source just listen to the recording. As for driving traffic to the sites, I’m pretty sure neither of them are monetized (Youtube wouldn’t allow it), so it’s okay, you are not giving them money. No need to be so concerned.

The first link was an authentic Martin recording, and the second one was about eleven seconds of Martin speaking embedded in eleven minutes of spittle-flecked nutty claims about Martin without basis.

No, it was about 40 seconds and I specifically told you where the recording is in the clip, so you wouldn’t have to watch the rest of the commentary in the video.

I’m not sure if you’ve heard of him, but I recommend having a look at Taylor Marshall’s channel on YouTube.

No thanks. I know who he is and have in the past tried to watch a couple of his videos, but find the way he talks and does them rather irritating. He just isn’t my cup of tea.

You know, I might buy into this whole ‘he’s just trying to have a dialogue with LGBT and help them come into the church or feel more accepted there’ if he didn’t say some of the things he has said in the recordings. I mean of course gay people are welcome in the church and if he doesn’t want to condemn them because he feels it might frighten them away, that’s one thing. Telling a gay man he hopes in future he will be able to kiss his partner or soon to be husband in church is another and it’s basically saying he hopes for something that is against the teaching of the Catholic Church.

 

[FiveLinden]

He says ‘for a teaching to be really authoritative it is expected that it will be received by the people’. He then says the teaching that LGBT people must remain celibate their entire lives, hasn’t been received by them. He’s clearly implying that this teaching is therefore not authoritative. Again, how can a priest say this?

It means that for these LGBT people the teaching is not recognised as an authority over them, guiding their lives. In the military orders must be given, and received, in order to result in the desired action. Same thing. Your inference that he is saying ‘the teaching is not authoritative’ is an inference you have taken but I do not think it is an logical implication.

 

[Polak]

I understand your interpretation, but I disagree with it. Given that he has suggested passages in the Bible on homosexuality being sinful might be wrong, I wouldn’t put it past him to question Catholic Church teaching. I think he is doing that right here.

What about him telling a gave man he hopes he will soon be able to kiss his male partner or soon to be husband, in church? How do you explain that one?

 

[FiveLinden]

What about him telling a gave man he hopes he will soon be able to kiss his male partner or soon to be husband, in church? How do you explain that one?

See above…

 

[Polak]

That isn’t an answer. See what above? You haven’t addressed this. Fr. Martin said he ‘hopes’ the gay man will be able to kiss his ‘soon to be husband’ in church in future.

 

[OraLabora]

That isn’t an answer. See what above? You haven’t addressed this. Fr. Martin said he ‘hopes’ the gay man will be able to kiss his ‘soon to be husband’ in church in future.

I agree with the above that context is everything. A passionate kiss leading up to… unchaste activity is one thing. A quick peck at the sign of peace is quite another. Heck the monks at our abbey embrace each other at the sign of peace (not a kiss, but a brief hug and touching cheeks).

As to the focus on sin, why oh why, on CAF, does this “sin” get more press than any other except abortion? We are all sinners and will face judgement for our sins. Let’s focus on our own conversion and let the LGBQT work on theirs at their own pace. Conversion is a life-long process, and it won’t happen outside the Church; a gay person may only recognize his or her sin on their death bed when receiving the Anointing of the Sick. If that’s where it happens, it is a victory, not a loss.

The Church needs to be made welcoming for all sinners, otherwise its purpose on Earth is short-circuited. Even if our blinders only come off on our death bed and we finally manage to express our contrition to the priest at our anointing, the Church will have served her purpose. On the other hand if we turn a particular class of sinners away, so that they don’t have the opportunity to work on their conversion, then the Church has failed in her mission. I believe this is what Fr. Martin is attempting to say: let’s not ostracize the LGBQT for their sin while ignoring other sins. A variation of the speck in your eye vs log in mine, teaching,

 

[Polak]

I agree with the above that context is everything.

Yes, context is very important. Have you listened to the audio clip? The gay man talks about going to church with his partner. He talks about not feeling comfortable kissing him there. He also talks about whether in future he will be able to kiss his partner in church in front of their children. Fr. Martin says LGBT people have more faith than straight people (is that a proven fact?) but disregarding that, here is the most important part, he says he hopes in future the gay man (he is talking to) will be able to kiss his partner or soon to be husband in church. It isn’t just that he doesn’t call out or condemn sin, it’s that he says he hopes the man will be able to commit the sin in future.

As to the focus on sin, why oh why, on CAF, does this “sin” get more press than any other except abortion?

You miss the point. It really isn’t about judging the sin, it’s about the fact that a Catholic priest is advocating for it. He tells the gay man he hopes he will be able to kiss his soon to be husband in church in future. Why are you ignoring this? You can be as welcoming as you want to sinners (as you said, we are sinners too) but you never condone the sin.

Btw, I don’t know what Catholic church this man in the audio clip goes to, but I don’t see people kissing each other, even on the cheek, during the sign of the peace where I go.