Fr. James Martin

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Under no circumstances can homosexual intimate actions be approved.​

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CCC 2357b . . . . Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
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That being said, we need to avoid unjust discrimination. But we also realize all discrimination is not “unjust” either (blind people justly cannot be pilots for example).

We also understand that the Church teaches that
even the mere inclination of homosexuality is “objectively disordered”.
CCC 2358a The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. . . .
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CCC 2360a Sexuality is ordered to the conjugal love of man and woman. . . .
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Bold mine.

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Under no circumstances can homosexual intimate actions be approved.

Contrariwise . . . .

The intimate and chaste union of the male and female spouses are noble and honorable.​

CCC 2362a "The acts in marriage by which the intimate and chaste union of the spouses takes place are noble and honorable . . .
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Polak.

Thanks for posting this information.

There is a Whole lotta uncharitable silence going on in this thread. (But thankfully not from you Polak).

9 Ways To Be an Accessory to Sin
  1. By Silence (peccatum taciturnitatis or the sin of silence)
  2. By Counsel
  3. By Command
  4. By Concealment
  5. By Consent
  6. By Partaking
  7. By Provocation
  8. By Praise (or Flattery)
  9. By Defense of the Ill Done
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Bold mine.
 
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What about the sin of driving people away from the Church and depriving them of any possibility of salvation?
 
@Anesti33 . . .
What about the sin of driving people away from the Church and depriving them of any possibility of salvation?
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Are you talking about Fr. Martin’s advice?
Someone here (who and how)?
Something else?
 
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AlNg said:
Not true for the Catholic Dante. There are different levels of hell depending on the extremity of the level of the grave sin committed. Catholic priests have given sermons on this. And as the Catholic Catechism says, there are some sins that cry to heaven.
Do you say that the CCC is wrong on this?
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What the Church teaches is the only thing that counts and not what any individual says. The Church does not teach that there are different levels of Hell depending on the gravity of a grave sin.
Please show me where in the CCC it states what you are saying.
 
Catholic Encyclopedia: Hell

https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm
Catholic Encyclopedia:
(1) The pains of hell differ in degree according to demerit. This holds true not only of the pain of sense, but also of the pain of loss. A more intense hatred of God, a more vivid consciousness of utter abandonment by Divine goodness, a more restless craving to satisfy the natural desire for beatitude with things external to God, a more acute sense of shame and confusion at the folly of having sought happiness in earthly enjoyment — all this implies as its correlation a more complete and more painful separation from God.
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Anesti33 said:
Catholic Encyclopedia: Hell

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Hell
(1) The pains of hell differ in degree according to demerit. This holds true not only of the pain of sense, but also of the pain of loss. A more intense hatred of God, a more vivid consciousness of utter abandonment by Divine goodness, a more restless craving to satisfy the natural desire for beatitude with things external to God, a more acute sense of shame and confusion at the folly of having sought happiness in earthly enjoyment — all this implies as its correlation a more complete and more painful separation from God.
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Not interested in the Encyclopedia. What the Church teaches is in the CCC. Show me in the CCC.
 
Montrose said:
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Anesti33:
Catholic Encyclopedia: Hell

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Hell
(1) The pains of hell differ in degree according to demerit. This holds true not only of the pain of sense, but also of the pain of loss. A more intense hatred of God, a more vivid consciousness of utter abandonment by Divine goodness, a more restless craving to satisfy the natural desire for beatitude with things external to God, a more acute sense of shame and confusion at the folly of having sought happiness in earthly enjoyment — all this implies as its correlation a more complete and more painful separation from God.
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Not interested in the Encyclopedia. What the Church teaches is in the CCC. Show me in the CCC.
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Prove that it is not Catholic teaching. Prove that it is reprobated by the Magisterium. Prove that the faithful are bound not to hold to a doctrine of levels of the Beatific Vision and eternal damnation alike.
 
Montrose said:
Not interested in the Encyclopedia.
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The article is published with the ecclesiastical approval of the Catholic authorities:
Ecclesiastical approbation. Nihil Obstat. June 1, 1910. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.
Montrose said:
Please show me where in the CCC it states what you are saying.
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Here is what I said in reference to the CCC:
AlNg said:
And as the Catholic Catechism says, there are some sins that cry to heaven.
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Anesti33 said:
Prove that it is not Catholic teaching. Prove that it is reprobated by the Magisterium. Prove that the faithful are bound not to hold to a doctrine of levels of the Beatific Vision and eternal damnation alike.
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The onus is on the one making the claim to provide proof. YOU are the one who made the claim about the different levels of Hell and YOU are the one that has to come up with the goods.
It is not Church teaching so I can’t prove a negative.
 
Catholic Answers:
The Union Councils of Lyons and of Florence declared that the souls of the damned are punished with unequal punishments . . . This is probably intended to assert not merely a specific difference in the punishment of original sin and of personal sins, but also a difference in the degree of punishment for personal sins [cf. Matt. 11:22; Luke 20:47]. . . . St. Augustine teaches “In their wretchedness the lot of some of the damned will be more tolerable than that of others. Justice demands that the punishment be commensurate with the guilt.” (Ott, Fundamentals , 482)
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Catholic Answers said:
The Union Councils of Lyons and of Florence declared that the souls of the damned are punished with unequal punishments . . . This is probably intended to assert not merely a specific difference in the punishment of original sin and of personal sins, but also a difference in the degree of punishment for personal sins [cf. Matt. 11:22; Luke 20:47]. . . . St. Augustine teaches “In their wretchedness the lot of some of the damned will be more tolerable than that of others. Justice demands that the punishment be commensurate with the guilt.” (Ott, Fundamentals , 482)
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The CCC has the teachings of the Church. Please show me where in the CCC (I have no interest in other documents you come up with) your claim is backed up.
 
AlNg said:
How do you explain the Councils of Lyons and Florence? Do you reject their teachings?
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You continue to digress. I know you are doing this because you can’t come up with any support from the CCC which John Paul II described in his letter at the beginning of the CCC as a “sure norm for teaching the faith,” as well as a “sure and authentic reference text” for preparing local catechisms.

The CCC contains a summary of Church teachings with footnotes showing what underpins these teachings in the Bible and other Church documents.
Therefore if we want to know what the Church actually teaches we read the CCC.
 
Montrose said:
Therefore if we want to know what the Church actually teaches we read the CCC
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Of course Catholics have to believe everything in the CCC which contains most Catholic teachings but I don’t think that every Catholic teaching is in the CCC. There are some Catholic teachings not in the CCC, at least explicitly. BTW, do you believe what was taught in the Council of Lyons and Florence? Or do you think it is OK to reject the teachings of the Councils of Lyons and Florence?
 
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AlNg said:
Of course Catholics have to believe everything in the CCC which contains most Catholic teachings but I don’t think that every Catholic teaching is in the CCC. There are some Catholic teachings not in the CCC. BTW, do you believe what was taught in the Council of Lyons and Florence? Or do you think it is OK to reject the teachings of the Councils of Lyons and Florence?
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I do not read individual documents to find out what the Church teaches. The teachings are in the CCC. I believe and accept everything in the CCC. If a Church document, like the ones you refer to, underpin a Church teaching then it would be referenced in the CCC footnotes. If you can find a teaching in the CCC which backs up your claim and is supported by the document you refer to then I will read it.
 
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Montrose said:
I do not read individual documents to find out what the Church teaches. The teachings are in the CCC.
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I believe that you are in error. The CCC does not contain every Catholic teaching. There are Catholic teachings which are not in the CCC.
In addition to the CCC, and the documents of the infallible Councils of the Catholic Church, we have Holy Scripture. you might read what the CCC says about Holy Scripture and then read the words of Jesus on the issue we are discussing:
CCC
104 In Sacred Scripture, the Church constantly finds her nourishment and her strength, for she welcomes it not as a human word, “but as what it really is, the word of God”.67 "In the sacred books, the Father who is in heaven comes lovingly to meet his children, and talks with them."68
107 The inspired books teach the truth. "Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures."72
What does Jesus say about different degrees of punishment in the future life?
Matthew 11:20-24
“Woe to you, Chorazin. Woe to you, Bethsaida. For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. Nevertheless I say to you, it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment, than for you. And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You shall descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day. Nevertheless I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you.”*
Luke 20: 47 "They devour widows’ houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. These men will be punished most severely.”
And what does the New Testament say:
Hebrews 10:28-29
How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
 
There is little point in continuing the discussion. You have failed to come up with a Church teaching in the CCC to support your claim about Hell. As it would appear you will continue to be unable to do so then I am dropping out.

Before I go you might like to read this from the US Catholic Bishops Conference:

Is the doctrinal authority of the Catechism equal to that of the dogmatic definitions of a pope or ecumenical council?

By its very nature, a catechism presents the fundamental truths of the faith which have already been communicated and defined. Because the Catechism presents Catholic doctrine in a complete yet summary way, it naturally contains the infallible doctrinal definitions of the popes and ecumenical councils in the history of the Church. It also presents teaching which has not been communicated and defined in these most solemn forms. This does not mean that such teaching can be disregarded or ignored. Quite to the contrary, the Catechism presents Catholic doctrine as an organic whole and as it is related to Christ who is the center. A major catechism, such as the Catechism of the Catholic Church , presents a compendium of Church teachings and has the advantage of demonstrating the harmony that exists among those teachings.
 
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Montrose said:
You have failed to come up with a Church teaching in the CCC to support your claim about Hell.
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So what? The CCC does not contain every Catholic teaching. There are Catholic teachings which are not in the CCC.
Do you accept or reject the infallible documents of the Council of Lyons and Florence as authentic teaching of the Catholic church?
Anyway, i gave you the CCC teaching on the Scriptures and a quote from Scripture to support my case.
Do you accept the word of Jesus as authentic teaching of the Catholic Church?
 
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