Fr. James Martin

[puer.dei]

You can’t just go around ignoring a teaching of a Church Father.

And if you read my post, you know that I clearly did not say to ignore St. Augustine. I said that particular statement of his is not doctrine or dogma.

 

[AlNg]

I asked a clarifying question.

I gave you the answer.

This is just too weird for me – a non-Catholic attempting to catechize.

i thought that anyone was allowed to quote from the CCC or to quote a venerable Father of the Catholic Church or to quote from Holy Scripture. Instead of responding to the subject you respond with an ad hominem argument claiming that I am a non-Catholic attempting to catechize.

And if you read my post, you know that I clearly did not say to ignore St. Augustine. I said that particular statement of his is not doctrine or dogma.

It is true of course that it is not dogma, but I don’t see where a Father of the Church has said that there are not different levels in hell. I quoted St. Augustine to support my argument, and I don’t see where you have quoted anyone saying he was wrong?

 

[puer.dei]

I quoted St. Augustine to support my argument, and I don’t see where you have quoted anyone saying he was wrong?

Good grief. Please stop claiming I said something that I clearly did not say.
I did not say to ignore St. Augustine.
I did not say he was wrong, I simply said it’s not doctrine. I don’t see why “not doctrine” is such a difficult phrase to understand.

 

[AlNg]

I simply said it’s not doctrine.

I agree. You are right on that point. But i don’t see where a Church Father has said that there are not different levels of hell. It is not uncommon to quote a Father of the Catholic Church to support your position.

 

[puer.dei]

But i don’t see where a Church Father has said that there are not different levels of hell. It is not uncommon to quote a Father of the Catholic Church to support your position.

I didn’t say there aren’t, either. I said, very clearly, it’s not doctrine.
And I have much better things to do than hunt for a quote saying so, just to satisfy someone who repeatedly makes false claims about what I’ve said.

And to keep you from making any more such false claims, I’m out of this discussion.

 

[AlNg]

And to keep you from making any more such false claims

My claim: There are some mortal sins that are worse than others. Why is this a false claim? I don’t see it. For example:
In Luke 20:47 Jesus says:
“who devour widows’ houses and for a pretense make long prayers. They will receive the greater condemnation.”

 

[cjsm93]

I know this isn’t the first thread that has been posted on him, but rather than talking about a particular story related to Jesuit priest Fr. James Martin, I just wanted to feel get people’s general feelings about him? Is your vibe positive, negative, or somewhere in the middle?

To be honest I didn’t know a whole lot about him until more recently when I read a few news pieces on him and then decided to look him up further. I must say I am deeply concerned with some of the stuff he has said in regards to LGBT issues. . .

What he’s doing . . . , in my opinion, isn’t okay. He is actively promoting the gay lifestyle, telling gay couples they should be allowed to kiss each other in church, saying that chastity should not apply to them etc. How can a priest who is trying to lead his flock off a cliff, not be reprimanded for it? . . .

I am very disturbed by his liberal views and how vocal he has been about accepting this sexual perversion into the Church. Even more concerning is the growing number of Catholics who are supporting his twisted ideologies.

I am appalled and disappointed as I watch our world change for the worse, and our Churches changing with it. Are they so afraid of losing parishioners that they would submit themselves to an immoral and corrupt regime just to appear current and relevant? Half of the Church is following blindly, and the other half is too scared to speak out against it. These are some scary times.

I’m not sure if you’ve heard of him, but I recommend having a look at Taylor Marshall’s channel on YouTube. He’s very outspoken against the liberalism and corruption that is going on. He’s spoken about James Martin as well. Here is one of the videos if you’re interested:

 

[Anesti33]

how vocal he has been about accepting this sexual perversion into the Church.

Has he been vocal about perversion, or has he been vocal about people?

What’s the worst sin that you can think of? Murder? Rape? Genocide? Depriving a worker of his pay? Would you prevent someone who has committed such sins from entering the Catholic Church? Would you keep them from the Sacraments? I think keeping people away from salvation is the worst sin I can think of.

 

[AlNg]

I am appalled and disappointed as I watch our world change for the worse, and our Churches changing with it. … Half of the Church is following blindly, and the other half is too scared to speak out against it.

Exactly right.

 

[cjsm93]

No one is saying they can’t be Catholic. If you’re attracted to the same sex and can’t help it, that in and off itself is not a sin. If you struggle with mental illness and believe that you’re not the right gender, that in and of itself is not a sin either. But you cannot act out on those temptations because that is when it becomes sinful behavior, in the same way heterosexual couples must strive for chastity. We, as Catholics, absolutely must not condone the behavior of those who choose to participate in lifestyles of sexual perversion. Our Church is not a cafeteria in which you can pick and choose which rules you like and don’t like. That’s how it works. Disagreeing with truth does not change truth.

 

[Anesti33]

Keep banging the gong and tell me if it sounds any different when you do it for the thirty thousandth time after we’ve all heard it before.

 

[Diaconia]

To those arguing about the levels of sin here’s a couple of thoughts:

All violations of the Sixth Commandment are not equal - Adultery is worse than fornication, because it adds the component of taking something that belongs to another. Sodomy is worse than fornication, because it is also an unnatural act.

However, no one can know (except the sinner and their confessor) whether a sin committed is mortal or not. Full knowledge and full consent are required.

One of the logical fallacies that people fall into is that of assuming sodomy is equivalent to fornication. It’s not; a fornicating couple are doing something natural, and their situation can be regularized through matrimony. Their inclination is driven by nature, but their timing is premature.

Whereas two members of the same sex are doing something unnatural, and their situation cannot be resolved because marriage is only for persons of the opposite sex.

People who are attracted to members of their own sex have a particularly difficult cross to carry; and should be supported and helped, and loved, and cared for. They should not be encouraged to long for something that is impossible - the Church sanctioning so-called “gay marriage.” She won’t, because She can’t.

Christ our True God elevated marriage from a natural union to a supernatural one, to a Sacrament. “Gay marriage” is a sacrilegious attack on one of the Mysteries He gave us.

Deacon Christopher

 

[AlNg]

All violations of the Sixth Commandment are not equal

Correct.
This is what i have been trying to say.

All violations of the Sixth Commandment are not equal - Adultery is worse than fornication, because it adds the component of taking something that belongs to another. Sodomy is worse than fornication, because it is also an unnatural act.

However, no one can know (except the sinner and their confessor) whether a sin committed is mortal or not. Full knowledge and full consent are required.

One of the logical fallacies that people fall into is that of assuming sodomy is equivalent to fornication. It’s not; a fornicating couple are doing something natural, and their situation can be regularized through matrimony.

Exactly right.

 

[FiveLinden]

I’m confused by your response. Why do you think anything about this is a distortion or out of context?

Because the selective quotation does not include the context that what is being discussed is the sign of peace, the typical behaviour of heterosexual couples, and the contextual comment about ‘others who may have other things on their conscience’. In any case surely it is allowed for homosexual couples attending Mass to embrace at the sign of peace?

 

[FiveLinden]

Whereas two members of the same sex are doing something unnatural , and their situation cannot be resolved because marriage is only for persons of the opposite sex.

Umm, heterosexual couples do things the Church classifies as ‘unnatural’ too.

 

[Diaconia]

And homosexuals cannot ever do what is natural.

 

[Cathoholic]

gracepoole to AINg . . . .

homosexual acts were once described as one of four sins that cry to heaven for vengeance.

They still are.

gracepoole . . . .

When was the last time you heard this phrase applied to the other three sins?

Perhaps 2018. I cannot answer for AINg, but I have posted about all four.

Here it is.

The left often promotes all four sins (although they wouldn’t put it that way).

From my (Cathoholic’s) post here . . . .

I know it is ALSO perennial Catholic teaching about sins that cry out to Heaven for God’s justice or vengeance (so it wouldn’t surprise me if Pope Francis has TWO of those sins in mind when he wrote GEE section 101).

Willful murder of the innocent
The sin of Sodom, or carnal sin against nature
Oppressing of the poor, especially widows and orphans
Defrauding the wage earner

Also here . . .

Based on today’s reading (which I was not the one to initiate by the way) . . .

I have called out sodomy , rape, child rape, incentivization of child rape,
murder, murder of immigrants who are pre-born ,
pushing real immigrants to the back of the line (this is NOT the way to treat the stranger and sojourner ).

I have condemned the artificial lowering of wages (a sneaky evil form of defrauding the wage earner ).

I have called for helping people in political and economic dirt-hole countries yet abstain from military involvement (avoid “interventionism”).

I have called for prayer and new ideas.

And this also from me (Cathoholic) . .

From Wkipedia (they forgot to mention “abortion” under murder) . . .

The four sins that cry to Heaven for Vengeance (or sins that cry to Heaven) (Latin: peccata clamantia) are a list of certain mortal sins in Catholic moral theology . . .

The “blood of Abel”: homicide, infanticide, fratricide, patricide, and matricide
The “sin of the Sodomites”.
The “cry of the people oppressed in Egypt, the cry of the foreigner, the widow, and the orphan”: slavery and marginalization
The “injustice to the wage earner”: taking advantage of and defrauding workers

 

[Cathoholic]

AINg . . .

But what is the Roman Catholic interpretation of it?

You are correct AINg.

Homosexual acts ARE worse.

They are intrinsically evil.

Heterosexual acts are not intrinsically evil.

Homosexual acts are a rebellion against God AND against nature.

 

[TMC]

I find there is a strong human tendency to focus on sins that one is not in danger of committing, and to insist that the sins of others are the real evil, while ones own sins are more pedestrian in nature.

 

[FiveLinden]

And homosexuals cannot ever do what is natural.

I think you have identified Fr James Martin’s particular ability. He understands as many Catholics do not that the vast majority - 99 per cent? - of what homosexuals do is, even by the strictest Church teaching ‘natural’.

Homosexuals can, and do, natural things all day long. They eat breakfast, go swimming, read books, take care of family members… They not only can do these things, they do do them. Even in the context of a relationship which has a sexual component the vast majority of life has nothing to do with sex. Even in my younger days as an active heterosexual this was true!

My wife and I are friends, we take part in shared causes, we share family commitments - and this from my observation seems to be true of my homosexual friends, both men and women. Their lives neither consist of, nor are defined by, the ‘unnatural acts’ Catholic critics of their lives see.

From what I have read of Fr Martin he has seen the wood beyond the trees and is able to see sex in a proportionate way within human relationships.

Of course I would be likely to say that as someone who does not think ‘natural law’ exists. But I think Fr Martin does and he is genuinely trying to apply it in a rational and proportionate way to full human experiences of others.