Fr. James Martin

  • Thread starter Thread starter Polak
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It’s one thing to discuss Fr Martin’s statements, even though they have been discussed to death on here already.

However, the speculation on Fr Martin’s personal business and orientation is inappropriate. I’m not going to contribute to a thread that arguably denigrates a member of the clergy in violation of CAF TOS.
 
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So Polak, thank you for responding to my request for evidence, which you have done by providing two links:
Polak said:
As requested

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xa2DXkw7Xuc (Him saying he hopes that one day gay couples will be able to kiss in church and not have to feel uncomfortable about it)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHoXssKrMDE (In 2.00 to 2.45 of the clip he says gay people are not bound by the church’s teaching on chastity because they ‘have not received it’). Some people here are not keen on Church Militant as a source for Catholic news, but the recording of him saying it is in their video.
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You have provided these as evidence of this claim you made in your OP:
Polak said:
He is actively promoting the gay lifestyle, telling gay couples they should be allowed to kiss each other in church, saying that chastity should not apply to them etc.
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They do not provide evidence.

The first claim, about couples ‘being allowed to kiss each other in Church’ is about the sign of peace. He was talking about a situation in which a same-sex couple felt unable to behave in the same way as heterosexual couples. Calling this ‘kissing’ without context is a distortion.

Further, you do not quote what he says next: ‘What about the others there, with other things on their conscience’? This puts an entirely different meaning on what Fr Martin said. To selective quote as you have done is not telling the truth.

The second video categorically does not include the words you attribute to Fr Martin that ‘gay people are not bound by the Church’s teaching on chastity because they have not received it’. The words he uses are ‘for a teaching to be really authoritative it must received by the people of God’.

It is open to your to interpret these words as you see fit. But it is not telling the truth to say he said other words and to cite this video as evidence.

I do not have a horse in this race, since I am neither a liberal nor a conservative Catholic, or a Catholic at all. But I am interested in what Catholics believe. Fr Martin’s efforts to find a place for gay people in the Church involve interpreting scripture and tradition in ways that challenge others’ beliefs. His arguments are nuanced and complex but not difficult to understand with a few minutes thought. The responses to them are also interesting to me, but not responses such as that presented in your video by Mr Voris. This is crude and simplistic and responds only to a distorted account of what Fr Martin is saying.
 
I agree with FiveLinden. Fr. Martin enjoys tweaking the noses of straight Catholics as much as he enjoys catering to LGBT people. The “evidence” presented is paper thin. The first and second link were both channels belonging to hardcore conservative polemic sites – so good job driving traffic to them! The first link was an authentic Martin recording, and the second one was about eleven seconds of Martin speaking embedded in eleven minutes of spittle-flecked nutty claims about Martin without basis.

I agree with FiveLinden that it’s really not fair to condemn Martin on the basis of this evidence, and that the “authoritative” discussion can be had: there is way more than one way to interpret this tiny sound bite as Martin is quoted.

I don’t think it is fair, charitable, or Christian to impute to Fr. Martin blame which he doesn’t deserve. And once again I ask: what if Fr. Martin is the only voice that reaches someone? What if he is the instrument of the Holy Spirit converting someone to True Faith, even if Fr. Martin’s own faith is imperfect?

I’ve known plenty of priests with imperfect faith, and they have been wonderful men and the dispensers of sacraments. We must not throw out the baby with the bath water. There is a lot of good to be found in Fr. Martin and the message he preaches to the LGBT community. I think the most important thing to remember is that they are listening to him.
 
This is probably the best summary of what is problematic about Fr. Martin and his views and why they are dangerous when it comes to learning to adhere to Church teaching:


Archbishop Chaput cites numerous authoritative sources, including the CCC, USCCB documents, and Vatican documents to support his warning. Archbishop Chaput provides examples of how he has misrepresented Catholic teaching on homosexuality and criticized Catholic teaching on homosexual issues. He has also, either intentionally or unintentionally, suggested the Church teaching on homosexuality is not authoritative and settled, and could be subject to change. He also partners and collaborates with organizations, that unlike Fr. Martin, are not ambiguous in any way about their views that Church teaching is wrong on homosexuality and should be changed.

The key takeaways are, don’t just listen to what Fr. Martin says, but listen to what he doesn’t say, and also watch what he does. One does not have to explicitly attack Church teaching or speak out against it to undermine it. There are more subtle, indirect ways to attempt to subvert and influence people against Church teaching while still technically “following the rules”.
 
FiveLinden said:
The second video categorically does not include the words you attribute to Fr Martin that ‘gay people are not bound by the Church’s teaching on chastity because they have not received it’.
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This is true. At least a person should give an honest quote or paraphrase of what was actually said.
 
I early used the word ‘truthful’ but which I meant ‘accurate’. I usually try to avoid the ‘honest’ word because it implies motive. From my observation many people in this debate are affected by anger and this lessens the ability to dispassionately discuss the issue.
 
FiveLinden said:
From my observation many people in this debate are affected by anger and this lessens the ability to dispassionately discuss the issue.
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It’s pretty much like that everywhere for all issues in the world right now.
Those on the pro-gay/ pro-Martin side are no slouches in the anger department either.
 
Fr. Martin’s mission is not to undermine or attack Catholic teaching. His mission is to minister to LGBT people in a compassionate and attractive way that will not send them screaming out the door of the Catholic Church. To that end, he has done much good.

There is something to be said for culture warriors who fight the good fight, and there is something to be said for people who build bridges (the Romans called them Pontifex) with charity and good will.
 
Weserthy said:
This is probably the best summary of what is problematic about Fr. Martin and his views and why they are dangerous when it comes to learning to adhere to Church teaching:
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You should probably include Fr. Martin’s reply. It is also helpful to note that Fr. Martin remains a priest in good standing with his order and the Vatican. He is a fully orthodox priest. There is no question about that.

 
Thanks for your reply but my question was actually aimed at @Anesti33, however he never answered.
 
If you can show me one example where Fr. James Martin, in his ministry to homosexual people, however gently, condemns the sin of homosexuality, I may be swayed to change my mind. However, if he is not doing so, his approval is given, either explicitly or implicitly, to the sin of homosexuality, and that is no small matter.
 
sealabeag said:
If you can show me one example where Fr. James Martin, in his ministry to homosexual people, however gently, condemns the sin of homosexuality, I may be swayed to change my mind.
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He condemns homosexual acts, as in being unchaste sexually.
Simply “being homosexual” in the sense of having same-sex attraction that you don’t act on is not a sin according to Church teaching, and he points that out.


I doubt this will change your mind or anyone else’s but he says basically what’s in this article in his speeches and I have personally heard him state, in person, that according to Church teaching, homosexual acts are wrong, and that’s just how it is, or words to that effect.

Also much of his live presentation focuses on how gay people’s sexual sins are treated differently from straight people’s sexual sins. He doesn’t try to say gay people aren’t sinning if they are having gay sex. You can find his talks all over Youtube if you really care. He doesn’t dwell on the sin part because that’s not the focus of his talks.

I would note that a lot of people would love to catch Fr. Martin saying something against Church teaching when he’s speaking at some Catholic monastery or school. He knows this and is very careful not to do that. When he writes books or articles he’s similarly prudent.

A lot of Catholics have a problem with him because they think (wrongly) that simply being gay is a sin even if you never act on it.
 
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Tis_Bearself said:
He condemns homosexual acts , as in being unchaste sexually.
Simply “being homosexual” in the sense of having same-sex attraction that you don’t act on is not a sin according to Church teaching, and he points that out.
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Sure, of course.
Tis_Bearself said:
I doubt this will change your mind or anyone else’s but he says basically what’s in this article in his speeches and I have personally heard him state, in person, that according to Church teaching, homosexual acts are wrong, and that’s just how it is, or words to that effect.
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It might, I don’t have a particular dog in this fight - if proof is presented that clearly disproves my current perception of him I will accept that, happily. I read the article: I definitely think it is more of a presentation of current Catholic teaching than his own personal views. He says what the Church teaches, not that he necessarily agrees with it, however it is good to see that he is doing that, at least. The issue is squaring this article with all the other instances where he gives support for homosexuality. I might gather and post a collection of those instances later.
Tis_Bearself said:
A lot of Catholics have a problem with him because they think (wrongly) that simply being gay is a sin even if you never act on it.
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I don’t think that.
 
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FiveLinden said:
The first claim, about couples ‘being allowed to kiss each other in Church’ is about the sign of peace. He was talking about a situation in which a same-sex couple felt unable to behave in the same way as heterosexual couples. Calling this ‘kissing’ without context is a distortion.
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I’m confused by your response. Why do you think anything about this is a distortion or out of context? He clearly says that he hopes one day homosexual couples will be able to kiss each other in Church. That is not okay.

Just to be clear, his exact words from the video: “So I do hope in 10 years you are able to kiss your partner or, you know, soon to be husband. Why not? What’s the terrible thing?”
 
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Fr. Martin is undoubtedly very savvy in how he presents his views and meticulous in avoiding outright heresy. But if he truly is obedient to Church teaching on homosexuality, he sure is good at making think otherwise. There are two main points why I don’t trust Fr. Martin or his statements that he doesn’t oppose Church teaching:
  1. His ongoing affiliation with heretical organizations that promote homosexuality (e.g., New Ways Ministry, DignityUSA). These organizations outright advocate for changes to Church teaching on homosexuality. Fr. Martin is a frequent speaker and collaborator with these organizations. He has also spoken alongside at least one woman religious member that I know of that was banned from publicly speaking by the Church for her dissent from Catholic doctrine.
  2. His frequent criticisms of bishops who uphold Church teaching on homosexuality. If a bishop speaks out on this topic, and especially if a bishop removes someone from a position in a Catholic school or church for being in a gay “marriage”, Fr. Martin always, without exception, will criticize the statement or decision on social media. If there has been a story on this topic that has passed without comment from Fr. Martin, I have yet to see it.
There are several other things I can point out that he has said and done over the years, but some of them have been already mentioned in this thread and are probably too numerous to elaborate on here. Suffice to say that the OP and others in here are certainly not wrong to be concerned about his activities, and that these concerns are not just Internet conspiracies run wild - we are in good company with many other deacons, priests, and bishops who have also expressed similar concerns about Fr. Martin’s “ministries” to homosexual Catholics.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
Also much of his live presentation focuses on how gay people’s sexual sins are treated differently from straight people’s sexual sins.
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Doesn’t the Bible say that homosexual sins are an abomination, but does not use this term for heterosexual sins?
 
As always, Cathoilcs don’t cherry pick the Bible and interpret it ourselves, nor do we play “rank 'em” with grave sins against purity.
A single Catholic man commits the same grave sin against purity whether he has sex with a woman or a man.
 
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Fr. Martin basically doesn’t need to condemn those sins. Everyone else does it for him. Fr. Martin is taking it for granted that those sins are condemned. He, and his audience, knows quite well that the sins are a priori condemned again and again and again. His audience has heard it all before. That’s why they are barely Catholic anymore. His audience considers it hatred and judgement to hear the sins condemned. They will shut their ears in disgust if they hear him condemning the sins.

That is why it is very savvy for him not to condemn them, but like Christ Jesus, he engages them. Fr. Martin draws them in with a message of hope and love. A message they desperately need to hear, especially from a Catholic priest.

Take Bishop Robert Barron. Does he condemn sex and violence in popular media? Does he take to YouTube and shout that we should not be watching Game of Thrones because it’s porn? Does he condemn the violence and trans people in Orange is the New Black? Nope, but Catholics and non-Catholics alike love him to pieces, because he engages the culture, he comments on culture, he immerses himself in culture without being corrupted by it. And I think that’s the appeal of Fr. Martin to LGBT people; they accept him as one of theirs, and he speaks to their hearts without chasing them away.
 
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