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pnewton
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Then we will have to disagree. I will always see a huge difference to talking to someone, and talking about someone.
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ColoradoCatholic
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maybe in most situations, but honestly who gets to talk to Pope Francis regularly like this…this argument doesn’t work for the majority of us who pretty much feel like Francis is going against Church teaching by saying these things.
My point is, the last people we should be fighting against is the priests standing up for the true Faith, whether or not Pope Francis is misled or not.
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OraLabora
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I’m speaking for my local Church, not the Church in general. I have enough experience of the Québec Church, and know enough Québec Catholics who have lived pre- and post-VII, to say confidently that there is almost NO appetite for the pre-VII Church nor a return to the very conservative Catholic values up until the early 60s. There are (very small) pockets here and there but they are few and far between; other than SSPX, you can find exactly 3 diocesan TLMs across the province of 9 million (there may be a 4th, FSSP’ but I’m unclear on whether it replaced a diocesan Mass or not). In Montreal, a metropolitan population of 4.6 million, there’s exactly one. The reason there are no more is simple: there is no demand. It may be different elsewhere like the US, but it’s the reality here.
I do know Catholics that left the Church and defected to Anglicanism because of divorce an remarriage.
I would not call looking at it differently “modernism”. I would call looking at it differently “mercy”. After all, you cannot call the Orthodox “modernist”, yet they allow for the fact that humans can make mistakes and they do have a mechanism for it. And whether some like it or not, the Holy Father has opened the door to that possibility. It’s been amply discussed elsewhere so I won’t rehash the points (I agree with Pope Francis on this).
Moreover, the proportion of annulments granted in the US (probably similar in Canada) is approaching 70% of all requests. It really makes a mockery, on its own, of Christ’s teaching on marriage. If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck…
Modernism is a word that is thrown around here in far too cavalier a manner, IMHO.
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twf
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The problem is when people try to apply the needs of one culture/locale to others without adequate discernment. The Church is a big tent. I’ve had experiences with visiting Quebecois priests here in BC that didn’t sit well…despite, I’m sure, the best intentions. For example, we are still very used to the option of anonymous confession behind a screen. One visiting priest from Quebec would make a point to come out of the confessional to greet each penitent with a smile and a handshake before their confession…I personally know someone who would literally not confess under those circumstances (rightly or wrongly). I’m assuming (maybe wrongly) that in Quebec confession is almost always outside of a confessional and almost always face to face? (As part of the broader “what we did before the 1960s didn’t work, so we are adapting” mentality).
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bruisedreed
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Friends in Christ,
Don’t you think this comment and article seems a little like it was written by the older brother of the prodigal son? He is angry that a celebration of welcome and joy is happening for the sinner, because the older brother has been working so hard in noble ministries like Courage. He says, “Look, I’ve been faithful all this time, and yet you’ve never thrown me a feast.” The older brother thinks that because a different approach is being offered to the prodigal son in his weakness, that all his work means nothing, that it’s a “slap in the face”. But everything that the father has is his to enjoy and has always been…
Don’t you think this comment and article seems a little like it was written by the older brother of the prodigal son? He is angry that a celebration of welcome and joy is happening for the sinner, because the older brother has been working so hard in noble ministries like Courage. He says, “Look, I’ve been faithful all this time, and yet you’ve never thrown me a feast.” The older brother thinks that because a different approach is being offered to the prodigal son in his weakness, that all his work means nothing, that it’s a “slap in the face”. But everything that the father has is his to enjoy and has always been…
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OraLabora
Guest
At the diocesan level, if you can even find confession, yes. I’ve only ever encountered it face to face (and not often, you really have to ask the priest if you’re lucky to catch him before Mass). Most simply go to confession at the two reconciliation services offered during Advent and Lent. At those services, several priests are available for individual confession (no general absolution except for venial sins),
At the abbey there was a choice, screen or face-to-face. I say “was” because the abbey is locked down since the beginning of the pandemic due to the advanced age of the most monks. I myself choose face-to-face mainly because it is always the same confessor, he knows me, and we work together on my thorny issues,.
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twf
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Yep, face to face is good and many people like it… but the option of anonymous is nice for those who can’t work up the courage for a face to face confession or simply aren’t comfortable for this or that reason. I’ve chosen both options many times depending on the circumstances, and I appreciate having the choice.
At our local parish, the pastor sits in the confession for 15-20 minutes before every Mass, week days or weekends. Our diocesan priests are all trained at the seminary at the Benedictine Abbey, so I think that explains why some elements are more “traditional” than most of Canada.
And unlike Quebec, BC was never particularly Catholic. So different traditions get imported in.
At our local parish, the pastor sits in the confession for 15-20 minutes before every Mass, week days or weekends. Our diocesan priests are all trained at the seminary at the Benedictine Abbey, so I think that explains why some elements are more “traditional” than most of Canada.
And unlike Quebec, BC was never particularly Catholic. So different traditions get imported in.
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twf
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Well it often applies to myself…but I can see how others could take it the wrong way. When face to face is the only option, it can be difficult for some to work up the courage to go to confession. That’s not to say that face to face is superior to anonymous.
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I’m not interested in interpreting scripture outside of the Church’s interpretation which is that the serious sin of the Pharisees is hypocrisy. They believe they are the ones who had the law and held themselves up as holy examples. But they rejected the ‘spirit of the law’ and were ‘like vipers’ in their attitude to those they looked down on as lesser in Gods eyes. There is no doubt through the words of scripture that Jesus was utterly repelled by that and condemned it ferociously. Ever since I was a little girl, that sprang out to me from those particular readings.
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MagdalenaRita
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yes I remember this from previous conversations, so that is why I say it does not speak for the whole Church but rather is anecdotal.
That is only partially true. Many Catholics do not even realize there is such a thing as the TLM, I know I was there for a while, so they do not demand it but as the knowledge increased so do the requests. The other is, even if people want it, getting it is difficult, especially if priests have not been trained to say the TLM. It has to start at the priestly seminary level and it is happening whether some like it or not.
The Catholic church has mercy also, always has and the mechanism is the Sacrament of Penance and obeying the Church’s teaching on marriage…
This depends on what part of the U.S. you live in. The more liberal the state, the more annulments granted. Also, the more liberal modernism is spread, the more annulments.
Pray for all those in such situations.
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MagdalenaRita
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No because the prodigal son repented and turned from his sins. He fell to the father’s feet and asked to be a servant. Ministries like Courage, work to bring the knowledge of Christ’s teaching on marriage and intimate relationships to those with SSA.
True mercy tells the truth to save a soul.
It applies to me also, no offense taken. I prefer to be anonymous to the priest and personal to Jesus in the confessional.That probably isn’t the most charitable way to phrase that.
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I would definitely not encourage anyone to interpret Scripture outside of the Church, absolutely, which is why I replied as I did. I think the time for calling Catholics who work hard to follow Church teaching, Pharisees, has got to come to an end.
Following the Church of Christ does not make one a hypocrite or a Pharisee. In order to judge someone as a hypocrite you would need to read their hearts. Jesus could call the Pharisees hypocrites because he could read their hearts. He was God, we are not.
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bruisedreed
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I think you’re mistaken about that parable.
It’s true that the younger brother returned to the father, but the father ran out to him before he could even approach. Nowhere in the parable does it say the prodigal son was no longer a sinner, only that he decided he would try to undertake a new life in closeness with the father, which is what many LGBT people who try to stay close to the Church are doing. They are doing what they can, trying to be of service to the Father, and the pope is coming to meet them halfway so that, sometime in the future, they may be even more enticed to enter fully into the Father’s life.
But that is actually immaterial, because in my comment what I was focusing on was not the prodigal son but his brother and his resentfulness, because I believe this sort of article does very much read like the brother’s resentfulness.
It also reads like the parable of the workers who worked day in and day out, who put everything in, and repented of all doing, only to be compensated the same amount as the worker who worked a fraction of the day and put in a fraction of the sweat.
It’s true that the younger brother returned to the father, but the father ran out to him before he could even approach. Nowhere in the parable does it say the prodigal son was no longer a sinner, only that he decided he would try to undertake a new life in closeness with the father, which is what many LGBT people who try to stay close to the Church are doing. They are doing what they can, trying to be of service to the Father, and the pope is coming to meet them halfway so that, sometime in the future, they may be even more enticed to enter fully into the Father’s life.
But that is actually immaterial, because in my comment what I was focusing on was not the prodigal son but his brother and his resentfulness, because I believe this sort of article does very much read like the brother’s resentfulness.
It also reads like the parable of the workers who worked day in and day out, who put everything in, and repented of all doing, only to be compensated the same amount as the worker who worked a fraction of the day and put in a fraction of the sweat.
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MarysLurker
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No, the Quiet Revolution did.
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MarysLurker
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This has Marxist-Gramscian critical theory written all over it.
And that came true, because Africans have been much better at keeping the Faith than Europeans or Americans.
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MagdalenaRita
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Scripture says he did repent:
Luke 15 I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you; 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; treat me as one of your hired servants.”’
And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you; I am no longer worthy to be called your son
I did not say he was not longer a sinner but that he repented of the sins he had committed and was turning back to the Father in obedience. He, as all humans do, sinned again but then I am sure, repented again as we all must do.
Yes, this is my favorite part of the parable, because it reminds us that Jesus is always ready and watching for us with open arms to receive us back. That is why He instituted the Sacrament of Penance, so we can be cleansed, recieve the grace given to us in the sacrament and start life a new.
I agree we need to be always watching with arms open and welcoming, absolutely!!! but also ready with the truth. What has bothered people about what the Pope said is not the loving those with SSA but rather the comment about civil unions. That many people feel is a hit on the institution and purpose for marriage and intimate relationships.
Yes, I realized that, which is why I commented as I did. You have to take them both together.
As I said, people are not bothered by the love and mercy the Holy Father is asking us to show those with SSA but rather the comment on civil unions.
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OraLabora
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Which was a reaction to ultra conservative, borderline Jansenist Catholicism.
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bruisedreed
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Thank you for your comments. They were very edifying. I’ll pray on this. Thank you!
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MarysLurker
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I disagree, because the “ultra conservative” Catholicism had been part of Quebec since Samuel de Champlain landed there. “Ultra conservative Catholicism” was the national spirit for nearly 400 years. If there had truly been something wrong with it, then the revolution would have happened a lot sooner… like, say, at the turn of the 19th century on the heels of the (old) French Revolution. Your ancestors watched that mess from far away and wisely decided they wanted no part of it. So I find it very hard to believe that the Quiet Revolution was anything other than an external liberal takeover in which the Church was a covenient scapegoat.
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