Francis - the socialist pope?

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NoelFitz

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Seven-in-ten American Catholics claim that their overall opinion of Pope Francis is favo(u)rable. Do those who who consider him unfavo(u)rably do so because they consider him a Socialist?

I see in the WWW ‘Whenever Pope Francis discusses the economy, it sets off cries that the pope is a socialist or a communist.’ Is Pope Francis a socialist? | America Magazine.

In general do subscribers to CAF support the Pope fully, or is he considered a Socialist by a substantial proportion?

It seems to me that CAF disapproves of socialism and supports President Trump, in spite of the separation of Church and state.

Would one like to see in CAF more threads showing unequivocal support for the Pope and Catholic social teaching.?
 
NoelFitz said:
It seems to me that CAF disapproves of socialism and supports President Trump, in spite of the separation of Church and state.
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  1. Socialism is banned by the church.
  2. Jp2 even condemns Liberation theology ( which is just socialism with a Christian mask)
  3. Catholics everywhere are called to support their Nation. This tradition spans all the way to the Old Testament in the book of Jeremiah. You could even see it in the Book of Daniel.
  4. I believe Leo XIII said that separation of church and state is a heresy ( or at least very much frowned upon)
Ask for my opinion whether or not I think Pope Francis is a socialist? I’m conflicted. On one hand he did throw under the bus a lot of Liberation theologists when he was in Argentina before he became Pope. On the other hand he brought in Liberation theologists during Amazon synod.

Pray for him.
 
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Internet Catholics are more like 7/10 unfavorable, no?
 
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Pope Benedict had a flavor of tradition about him that made him largely exempt from scrutiny from conservative American Catholics, but as a German Pope he would probably also be considered “socialist” by some circles of American Catholics.

The definition of socialism changes based on whoever you are asking. As far as actual real life historical socialism and not individual people’s make-believe versions: no, the Pope obviously is not socialist.
 
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Elias said:
Socialism is banned by the church.
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Thanks Elias,
In the Syllabus of Errors (1864) I believe that liberalism, rationalism, socialism, democracy, bible societies, separation of Church and state, freedom of religion and democracy were condemned by Bl Pope Pius IX. I would like to hear more about the Church condemning socialism.

In school I learned that atheistic socialism was banned by the Church, but it was the atheistic part that disturbed the Church.

I also see in the WWW:
‘Pope Gregory XVI in an 1832 encyclical condemned freedom of conscience in society as an “absurd and erroneous teaching or rather madness”’.

There is need for careful study and a consideration of context, ‘sound bites’ and facile comments are not enough.
Elias said:
p2 even condemns Liberation theology ( which is just socialism with a Christian mask)
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Pope Francis approves of Liberation Theology.
DrawNearToGod said:
Internet Catholics are more like 7/10 unfavorable, no?
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I do not understand this.
gg995 said:
I do not agree with some of the Pope’s positions
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We are free to disagree with some of the Pope’s positions. He may support Argentina in football, others may not.
TK421 said:
The definition of socialism changes based on whoever you are asking
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Well said. This is what I have been trying to emphasize.
TK421 said:
the Pope obviously is not socialist.
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Why? In the US socialist is considered a dirty word. Christian socialist are socialists, but Christians also. An example I gave is Dorothy Day.

Thanks for all the replies. I gave the thread a title to encourage contributions, and I find the replies fair, thoughtful and worthy of consideration, if not of agreement.
 
I like Dorothy Day a lot and have used her as an intercessor.

In my opinion, I prefer to stick with the historical definition of socialism, because the historical definition of socialism has been condemned by the Church because of its anti-human worldview and the way it reduces people to objects.

Dorothy Day’s Catholic Worker Movement was about human dignity and human rights in the workplace and rights for their families and was the opposite of the way the socialists of the 19th and early 20th century dehumanized people. She herself intentionally did not define herself as a capitalist or a socialist. She endorsed distributism in her newspaper.
 
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I get sick of everything in this country being pro-left, pro-right, pro-choice, pro-life, pro-this, pro-that.
Is Pope Francis a socialist? I have no idea. I have never talked with the Holy Father.
I pray for Pope Francis. And I pray for the Church. 🙏 🙏 🙏
 
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I think the Pope is open to doing things necessary to make the Church more inclusive. Not necessarily going against long-standing doctrine.
 
Let’s unite and not divide. He is not and cannot be socialist. That “ism” is a form of collectivism and is condemned by the Church. (CCC 1878-1885) Please consider viewing Fr. Robert Spitzer’s exposition of the Holy Father’s reasoning and tactics.

 
I do not want to open the can of worms about women being priests. This thread is about Pope Francis. God bless him!
We have a tremendous shortage of priests.
We would have a lot more priests, if priests were allowed to marry or if women were able to be priests.
 
NoelFitz said:
In general do subscribers to CAF support the Pope fully or is he considered a Socialist by a substantial proportion?
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By “fully” do you mean:
(1) that every CAF member supports him? or
(2) CAF members support everything he says?
NoelFitz said:
It seems to me that CAF disapproves of socialism and supports President Trump, in spite of the separation of Church and state.
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Separation of Church and State is a restriction on Government (to not endorse a particular religion) not the private sector (CAF)
 
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JoeShlabotnik said:
I get sick of everything in this country being pro-left, pro-right, pro-choice, pro-life, pro-thing, pro-that.
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I am sorry if I make you sick. Is one allowed to be pro-New England Patriots?
Aquinas11 said:
By “fully” do you mean:
(1) that every CAF member supports him? or
(2) CAF members support everything he says?
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I meant that full support of the Pope means going along with the dogmas that the Pope believes as a faithful Catholic, as opposed to agreeing with all his opinions. Catholics are free to disagree among each other, so I would tend towards answer (1).
 
Would we really? Now the first thing is that women are not able to become priests, because that was God’s decision. Not ours. As for married men, think about it. How is marriage doing? How about Catholics, what is the percentage of Catholics marrying and remaining married? How about the percentage of Catholics contracepting?

Also we have several decades’ worth of data on Protestant pastors. How are their marriages? How do their children do? Mostly we find that pastors have the same ‘rate’ of failed marriage as do ‘laity’, and we also find that their children are far more likely to engage in troubled behavior, drugs, alcohol, needing counseling, etc., than ‘laity’. And the pastors who have the ‘harder’ parishes do even worse. And NONE of those parishes are so demanding as the average —average! Catholic parish. And they pay their priests more than the average Catholic priest ‘gets’.

So basically to get a few more warm bodies (because the men looking for the priesthood have to be married before they become priests, their wives have to be comfortable with abstinence before Masses, etc.) so you’re already looking now at the 30-50 age range, and these men are already less likely statistically to be married anyway~ you want to gamble that those few bodies will both satisfy the laity and be able to care for themselves and their families?

You want to say, Lord you know our needs and we know your guidelines but we want to change things because WE don’t trust that if we keep following your guidelines that we will have what WE think is ‘sufficient’. . . (You being general term, not you personally, of course)
 
NoelFitz said:
Pope Francis approves of Liberation Theology.
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All the more reason to be weary of him and his intentions. This is the same Pope Francis that allowed pagan idols in the Vatican after all. For several decades socialism has been condemned, yet one Pope decides to go against the grain and approve of it. In situations like this it is prudential to go with the established tradition than it is to go with the new and confusing change. Just because change happened doesn’t make it good.

Take the Kingdom of Israel for example. Early on idolatry was condemed and cracked down upon. Than in the age of Ezekiel it is promoted and allowed in God’s house. God punished Israel for it and gave them up to slavery. The last thing we as God’s new covenant church wants is to enter an age of Ezekiel.
 
stpurl said:
How about Catholics, what is the percentage of Catholics marrying and remaining married? How about the percentage of Catholics contracepting?
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I read that it is roughly the same as for the general population. Maybe a little less than that, but not by much.
 
I support our Holy Father fully.

Doesn’t mean I ignorantly think he’s a genius at everything he thinks or does. Also, I think it’s obvious, from many things he’s said and done in public, and in conversations with bishops that later get discussed, that he’s reactively antagonistic to ‘capitalism’, and sympathetic to socialism from a latin american context (i.e. he seems to see ‘socialism’ in a similar propagandized way that many miseducated people do, e.g. as a worker’s movement or solidarity-with-the-poor thing).

Obviously I think he’s deeply misguided (to whatever degree he allows his sympathy for socialist propaganda to influence him, especially when it comes to China which has an entirely different context from latin america) – but that’s not the same as not supporting him as our pope. And I do trust that God is guarding him (like God guards every pope) against any private errors being taught as infallible Catholic teaching.

I think Pope Francis is in many ways bringing something good to our Church, by emphasizing solidarity with the poor, and pushing us to be as flexible as possible in the direction of shaping human social life around human values, not just markets. At the same time, the man is not a master economist, he wasn’t born in a vacuum, and his cultural context seems from the evidence to have left him with some very weird (and dangerous) ideas. E.g. see the comments made by Cardinal Zen after meeting with him, about his view that the Pope means well regarding China, but just doesn’t understand that the communists in China are bad guys and oppressive overdogs, because the Pope is used to thinking of communists as underdog good guys in latin america. (obv I’m paraphrasing)

Long story short, this pope like all popes is a fallible human being in his private life and personal ideas, and it’s valid to offer correction to our brothers and sisters when they make dangerous errors that endanger human life and freedoms, including if our brother is the pope. At the same time, he’s our pope and God will protect the Church, so we need have no fear in the big picture, and we can continue to offer him our full support with him as our spiritual father.
 
I support him and agree with him when he is following orthodox continual teachings. I do not support him or agree with him when he introduces or does not address progressive ideas and heterodox teachings. ( Overall I support him and pray for him)
 
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