Free will, amputees, and Fatima

[phantasm]

What if the answer is something we don’t like? God does not appease our every whim. I think people are also missing the fact that amputation does not equal the end of life. Amputees actually go on to live very inspiring lives even though they are fraught with challenges. Also, I think instead of praying for a miracle (it’s probably a miracle they got away alive with only an amputation in the first place) they should pray for understanding and the will to fight on.

Yet Christians, even on this forum, will give direct credit to God for answering they’re prayer for ending a leg cramp?

How does a leg cramp end life?

There is so much mis-information around here about prayer, that it is tough to keep up on what your supposed to pray for.

So, except for leg cramps and back pain, you can’t ask God to heal you, if you can go on to lead an inspiring life.

Gotcha, except leg cramps.

Oh yeah, and we also should ignore all of the scripture that tells man to pray for what ever it is they desire.

This is all so confusing.

If I didn’t know better, I’d think that people were trying to make excuses for the most powerful being in the universe.

 

[phantasm]

Getting a good prosthetic is the answer to his prayers… But for God to make a house from thin air is not how He works.

I wasn’t aware that Christian prayers had so many conditions in order to qualify for divine assistance.

God making a house out of thin air, now that would win over some converts I tell ya!

Your quite right, none of the miracles are ever obvious and clear, that I do agree with you.

 

[ready]

The only thing I can think of that complicates my argument is when money turns up for people in their need in locked safes and places like that, as has been documented by certain nuns who have prayed for money. Does God put the money there through an agent who puts the money in or does God make the money out of thin air and get it in the safe?

 

[phantasm]

The only thing I can think of that complicates my argument is when money turns up for people in their need in locked safes and places like that, as has been documented by certain nuns who have prayed for money. Does God put the money there through an agent who puts the money in or does God make the money out of thin air and get it in the safe?

 

[ready]

Or does an angel deposit real money in the safe by unlocking the safe like the angel did for Peter when he was unlocked of his prison chains?

 

[phantasm]

Or does an angel deposit real money in the safe by unlocking the safe like the angel did for Peter when he was unlocked of his prison chains?

Are you kidding around or are these actual questions that you sincerely have?

If sincere, perhaps you should ask a priest all of these questions.

 

[Magnus467]

Yet Christians, even on this forum, will give direct credit to God for answering they’re prayer for ending a leg cramp?

How does a leg cramp end life?

There is so much mis-information around here about prayer, that it is tough to keep up on what your supposed to pray for.

So, except for leg cramps and back pain, you can’t ask God to heal you, if you can go on to lead an inspiring life.

Gotcha, except leg cramps.

Oh yeah, and we also should ignore all of the scripture that tells man to pray for what ever it is they desire.

This is all so confusing.

If I didn’t know better, I’d think that people were trying to make excuses for the most powerful being in the universe.

I didn’t say anything about leg cramps…I apologize but your statements are confusing me good sir. Sure, I can ask God to heal my leg cramps. Maybe his answer is that He lets the body He designed take care of it. I don’t find any confusing information on prayer. God will answer prayers but how He sees fit and not how we see fit. Perhaps consult the Catechism and not opinions?

Would God give us anything we asked for? What if I asked for a trillion dollars all for myself? Wouldn’t that be against the teachings of God? “it’s easier for a rich man…etc”. Maybe there is something beyond the words of my prayer that I am asking for but don’t realize. Just a theory.

 

[phantasm]

I accept, no one has an answer as to why God will not regrow an amputee’s limb.

The only answers I’ve seen contradict other posts that are found on this forum and in many cases, clearly contradict scripture.

If you don’t know why amputee’s are left out of prayers of healing, then why not just say " I don’t know why God heals a persons back pain, but will not regrow an amputee’s limb, and thus end their phantom pain caused by the severed limb.

 

[cranster]

So let me make sure I understand this. The little girl without pupils was “sick” but some one missing all four limbs is not?

Why is everyone getting hung up on semantics? Born without pupils=genetic defect, not illness. Losing limbs can stem from an illness such as diabetes, but the surgeon still has to injure the limb to save the life. Or it can be from an accident. Amputation itself is not an illness, but an injury.

 

[cranster]

Or always NO, like in the case of amputee’s. That’s the whole point. Most everyone gets healed, except for amputee’s.

Who says amputees don’t get healed, unless they have a severe clotting disorder and they bleed to death, That limb will heal and the skin will close around the wound in time. That is the healing! With the prosthetics that exist today most amputees live very active normal lives as a whole person.

It appears God, for His own reason, chooses not to regenerate the limb, or maybe He chooses to allow that to happen through the natural order of creation. Such as giving humans enough intelligence to figure out how to regenerate the limb, or replace it through transplantation.

I have a question, how is not having a limb going to be an impediment to one’s eternal salvation?

 

[cranster]

The only answers I’ve seen contradict other posts that are found on this forum and in many cases, clearly contradict scripture.

.

Are you sure they don’t just contradict your interpretation of Scripture?

 

[phantasm]

. Amputation itself is not an illness, but an injury.

So is back pain in many cases and the good Lord heals back pain.

There is a lady on this forum who credits God for ridding her of a leg cramp. A leg cramp is not an illness, is not an injury, is not anything except for a muscle temporarily seizing up.

Why the arguement?

Because you have Christians who will look you right in the eye and tell you that God, the creator of the universe answered their prayers, divinely intervened in their lives and healed them from their leg cramp or their back pain.

Yet, when we ask why God does not heal amputee’s, we get a whole bunch of excuses, of reasons…it’s not a sickness, it’s not an illness, it would be too obvious a miracle, God doesn’t work that way, it’s an unreasonable request, that’s what hospitals and prosethetics are for…

It is maddening.

Surely, I am not the only one who senses desperation on the part of the faithful on this thread to make up excuses for their omnipotent God?

 

[Magnus467]

There are plenty of people out there who don’t get healed, myself included. I’ve been diagnosed with a chronic disease 8 years now. It’s not just amputees. You seem to be either reading over or ignoring a lot of people’s comments here. I don’t see any “excuses”. Just people trying to offer explanations. I’ll say again, try reading the Problem of Pain by C.S. Lewis and try to understand where we are coming from. I believe you quoted “seek and you shall find”.

Also, isn’t suffering/dealing with injury/illness a fundamental part of human life?

As I write this I at home-sick

 

[cerad]

Why is everyone getting hung up on semantics? Born without pupils=genetic defect, not illness. Losing limbs can stem from an illness such as diabetes, but the surgeon still has to injure the limb to save the life. Or it can be from an accident. Amputation itself is not an illness, but an injury.

Are you aware that some folks are born without limbs?

 

[cranster]

Are you aware that some folks are born without limbs?

Granted, but that doesn’t technically qualify as an amputation.

 

[cranster]

Yet, when we ask why God does not heal amputee’s, we get a whole bunch of excuses, of reasons…it’s not a sickness, it’s not an illness, it would be too obvious a miracle, God doesn’t work that way, it’s an unreasonable request, that’s what hospitals and prosethetics are for…

two thoughts come to mind. One… how can a creature answer for it’s creator? How can we possibly answer for One who is infinitely above us? God acts as God wills, and is not accountable to anyone for His actions or inactions. The only thing we can be certain of is that God is a loving father and has nothing but goodness for us. Remember we are in the situation we are in because WE sin! The result of sin is that sickness, misery, and death entered the world, but God out of His goodness chose to save us and destin us for heaven provided we cooperate, and get in a state of grace and do our best to stay in that state.

The second thought is, that we as Christians learn to thank God for both our blessings, and trials. The trial especially, because Scriture says we are perfected through our sufferings. Like Fr. Corapi says, “No Cross, no crown”. There has to be the cross in our lives before there can be resurrection and glory. I would also recommend you pick up the book by C.S Lewis.

 

[ready]

Are you kidding around or are these actual questions that you sincerely have?

If sincere, perhaps you should ask a priest all of these questions.

I am dead serious. I had read a good book about St. Therese after her death how she’d interceed for people in their need and even appear to certain people. I wouldn’t make jokes about such a thing. After all, Therese, when she was alive said she wanted to spend her heaven doing good for people on earth. And so she did in the case of the desparate mother superior who needed a certain amount of money to pay the bills and found the exact amount of money in her safe, locked and everything. Where’s you faith?

 

[phantasm]

Are you sure they don’t just contradict your interpretation of Scripture?

Yes, I’m certain.

 

[cranster]

Yes, I’m certain.

any thing we ask for in His name will be granted as long as it is in accordance with His will, not ours, otherwise we’d all win the lottery.

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

So is back pain in many cases and the good Lord heals back pain.

There is a lady on this forum who credits God for ridding her of a leg cramp. A leg cramp is not an illness, is not an injury, is not anything except for a muscle temporarily seizing up.

Why the arguement?

Because you have Christians who will look you right in the eye and tell you that God, the creator of the universe answered their prayers, divinely intervened in their lives and healed them from their leg cramp or their back pain.

Yet, when we ask why God does not heal amputee’s, we get a whole bunch of excuses, of reasons…it’s not a sickness, it’s not an illness, it would be too obvious a miracle, God doesn’t work that way, it’s an unreasonable request, that’s what hospitals and prosethetics are for…

It is maddening.

Surely, I am not the only one who senses desperation on the part of the faithful on this thread to make up excuses for their omnipotent God?

I see desperation for you to image God as a more powerful image of yourself. If He doesn’t act in the way that you believe He should, then He doesn’t exist. Do Christians, myself included, on this thread have issues or struggle with our faith? We sure do. Do you? Yep. You quoted the Bible earlier and they were good quotes, but none refuted God’s free will, and there is not anywhere in the Bible that states prayers and miracles are ATMs or for the express purpose of doing what WE intend them to do.

In fact your issue is dealt with directly in the Bible (Why won’t miracles occur according to our whim/mores/reason):

Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered him, saying: Master we would see a sign from thee. 39 Who answering said to them: An evil and adulterous generation seeketh a sign: and a sign shall not be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet. 40 For as Jonas was in the whale’s belly three days and three nights: so shall the Son of man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.

I think to expect miracles for proof may be inherently evil–attempting to exert contol over a Being Who is pure Goodness is I think an evil. That is not to say prayers are wrong, just prayers without humility.

Faith is an intrinsic part of the Bible. In faith is the root of merit, in merit is the flower of Love. God is love. We see this in its logical outcome in the lives of those who best follow the Master:the saints. The world with its mystery serves as soil for us to love God. Easter’s a reminder of our Happy fault. Faith in humility leads us to this hope, not miracles.

Why believe in faith? Because the teaching of the Bible explained by the Church show a philosophy rooted in love more profound than the world has ever seen and has been consistent and expanding for over 2000 years. The Bible is a book of wisdom; Jesus left the Church for our instruction. Their teaching is hard, but it is the fullest and most authentic path of love I have seen. If God is love, the Church’s depth of teaching of such a powerful and deep spirituality rooted in a surprising history of OT, NT and the Church;'s history that led up to the current teaching both ethical and metaphysical rooted in love is I think the proof that you seek. The effort to find it is a great deal of study in humility.