Free Will in the Westminster Confession of Faith

[lanman87]

Just wanted to chime in and say that I appreciate your post. I’ve been reading some of Jonathan Edwards myself and am struck and how much of American Evangelical thought came from Edwards and Whitfield and others. I’m also struck, as you pointing out, that sometime in the mid 19th century conversion went from being a process to an event.

 

[Vonsalza]

Catholics also are following their gut: that the Catholic Church is correct.

I think you’re substantially over-simplifying here.

For me, it’s more like "Catholics also are following their gut: That Christ established a visible Church and guaranteed that Church cannot fail. So the Church, if it exists, must be ancient. Thus, sects that have come along in the last 500 years absolutely cannot be “The Church”.

 

[SojournerOnEarth]

Just wanted to chime in and say that I appreciate your post. I’ve been reading some of Jonathan Edwards myself and am struck and how much of American Evangelical thought came from Edwards and Whitfield and others. I’m also struck, as you pointing out, that sometime in the mid 19th century conversion went from being a process to an event.

A certain evangelist and the perfectionist movement tore a huge hole in the church in the mid 19th century. They still call western New York State the Burned District, because people were burned.

 

[ltwin]

Just wanted to chime in and say that I appreciate your post. I’ve been reading some of Jonathan Edwards myself and am struck and how much of American Evangelical thought came from Edwards and Whitfield and others. I’m also struck, as you pointing out, that sometime in the mid 19th century conversion went from being a process to an event.

Yeah, I’m not sure (because I haven’t read that far into Caldwell’s book) but didn’t Finney have something to do with that? He pretty much blew up the Calvinist theology that came before him.

 

[SojournerOnEarth]

B.B. Warfield devotes a substantial amount of space to perfectionism, including Finney, historically and theologically. He and his tore up the place. Very sad.

 

[SojournerOnEarth]

I’m also struck, as you pointing out, that sometime in the mid 19th century conversion went from being a process to an event.

Blanket-black quoting system. I apologize. Practice, me girl, practice.

It went from God doing it to man doing it. It is quite possible that some of the difficulty Protestants and Catholics have hearing each other is because of all the noise back then that is in our cultural mindframe: Protestants think Catholics think man has to save himself, and vice versa. The situation is much more complex and nuanced than that, to the point that it is not true. But we STILL get people running around who put the emphasize entirely on man, seemingly leaving God out of the equation.

 

[Vonsalza]

But we STILL get people running around who put the emphasize entirely on man, seemingly leaving God out of the equation.

I’d like to add that this doesn’t describe a single Catholic I know.

-For the benefit of other readers.

 

[SojournerOnEarth]

I don’t think it reflects Catholic teaching either. But then, many Catholics do not reflect Catholic teaching.

 

[Vonsalza]

I don’t think it reflects Catholic teaching either. But then, many Catholics do not reflect Catholic teaching.

Lordy, is there a [sizable] group anywhere that doesn’t experience the identical problem?

 

[SojournerOnEarth]

For that matter, I don’t always reflect what I believe, either.

And don’t call me Lordy. I know you have a high opinion of my amazing posting skills, but some things are a bit too far, doncha know?

 

[fhansen]

fhansen:

from the standpoint of ancient Traditional teachings in the eastern and western churches as well as from Scripture, as well as our own experience in this life where we learn that we must strive, we must do our part in order to realize benefit, that our integrity or state of justice is related to our own willingness to possess and act on it, …

What in there is in conflict with the WCF?

It’s very simple. In Catholicism man isn’t saved unless he says “yes”, and then continues to say “yes” in words and deeds. He cannot say “yes” without help, but he can still always say “no”, whether prior to justification or afterwards. God wants man’s participation, not because he needs it but for our own good and benefit because our justice is directly connected to our willingness to own it. So God draws us to Himself, seeking to elicit our right response, but will not override our desires such that we cannot say 'no" to his overtures, to His grace.

This role of the will is soooo critical in His plan for justifying and ultimately perfecting His creation. IOW, God’s plan is much more extensive and deep than to suddenly decide, with the advent of Christ, to merely save some of us wretched worthless worms (WWWs ) while leaving the rest to reprobation, their deserved fate anyway at the hands of a rightfully angry God. When we understand the gospel we know that enmity came from man, not God, that while God hates evil he loves man lavishly, all men, and desires none to perish. But from Adam on he will not interfere with man’s will, or in any case provide the final cause of man’s decision in choosing Him. Otherwise he may as well have likewise prevented Adam from sinning to begin with, avoiding lots of pain and evil in the process.

 

[SojournerOnEarth]

You are aware that St. Thomas Aquinas believed in predestination of a number whose members could not be added to or subtracted from? I think Augustine laid it out earlier.

 

[SojournerOnEarth]

With your free will, are you able to honestly say that 2+2=5? I suppose so, but it would be unreasonable. Reason and will cooperate. When they are free, you are free to say 2+2=4 and you will, every time, because a truly free will is truly free.

Do you think the Virgin Mary has free will? What keeps her from sinning? You will say grace, but how exactly does that work with her free will?

 

[MT1926]

I think you’re substantially over-simplifying here.

For me, it’s more like "Catholics also are following their gut: That Christ established a visible Church and guaranteed that Church cannot fail. So the Church, if it exists, must be ancient. Thus, sects that have come along in the last 500 years absolutely cannot be “The Church”.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

 

[fhansen]

We all believe in election but not in strict determinism, not without man’s choices factored in according to Church teachings. In the end election simply means that God, existing in eternity, foreknows the future, and “predestination” follows from that knowledge.

 

[Vonsalza]

With your free will, are you able to honestly say that 2+2=5? I suppose so, but it would be unreasonable. Reason and will cooperate. When they are free, you are free to say 2+2=4 and you will, every time, because a truly free will is truly free.

Do you think the Virgin Mary has free will? What keeps her from sinning? You will say grace, but how exactly does that work with her free will?

Listen, if you can’t choose good or evil of your own will, then you can’t be justly punished (or rewarded) for it. If you’re not a free moral agent, then the God that would punish you as though you were is an unjust God.

In Calvinism, the non-elect are being punished for failing to make a “choice” that they were fore-ordained to refuse to make.

 

[SojournerOnEarth]

We all believe in election but not in strict determinism, not without man’s choices factored in according to Church teachings. In the end election simply means that God, existing in eternity, foreknows the future, and “predestination” follows from that knowledge.

And the Reformed hold that God chose the elect, as sovereign, and the foreknowledge was as a result of his choice. God causes all things to work for good.

Under the Catholic system, Christ could have died for nothing, if no one was interested in getting saved.

 

[SojournerOnEarth]

They are punished for their own sins. Each would have eaten the fruit in the garden.

 

[Vonsalza]

They are punished for their own sins. Each would have eaten the fruit in the garden.

But they literally have no opportunity to not do it.

Essentially, they’re being “jailed” because their dad killed someone.

Unjust.

 

[SojournerOnEarth]

You know better than that. You did it when Adam did it. Apparently federal headship is something you missed.

Catholics believe in the fall, and in original sin. Did you know that?