Freemason Apologetics

[RCCDefender]

mosher:

This is not completely correct. The reason why Jesus’ name is not used in prayer in the Lodge is simply because the prayer is made to God under the title of “The Grand Architect of the Universe” which is in fact a Catholic usage since the early Church. The story of Hiram Abif is not a parallel of Christ in the form of the ressurection but rather ressurection imagry is used to express an intellectual and moral point concerning a death to vice and ignorance and rising to virtue and study. Further oaths in any degree are taken on the “sacred book” of the individuals religion within bounds. Thus in every degree it is generally the OT unless one is taking the York Rite degrees which past the Royal Arch Degrees are exclusively Christian with a vow that includes the defense of Christianity.

Can you cite some references where the early Church uses this term?
What I read on the freemason website was that Hiram Abif was stabbed to death by three other masons who had a grudge and that, like Christ, he was resurrected. I didn’t read any imagry…

 

[trth_skr]

SDA2RC and mosher:

I am not trying to say that every mason is an explicit lucifer worshipping zealot. The truth is likely that most masons in the US (blue lodge variety, 4 degrees, especially) are probably just involved for social, philanthropic, business, etc. reasons, much as you two are stating. On the other hand, if you made it through 32 advanced degrees, plus 4 basic ones, and still do not see the issues in it, I have to wonder! I sure hope you approach Catholic apologetics with a little more effort than you [apparently] approached your 4 lower degrees + 32 SR degrees. I imagine that getting a degree takes a total time (apply, read/study/prepare, ceremony) of at least 2 hours and more likely (if you are taking it somewhat seriously) 4-8 hours each.

The harm with masonry, as explained by the popes who spoke on the issue is the naturalistic philosophy which lays the basis for masonry. In this philosophy, there really is no need for a caring, loving God who has direct contact with humans, and leads, guides and sustains them. In fact this is considered tom-foolery. In masonry, god is some abstract concept, who animated things, then left to us to take care of the world (more or less). Regardless of the intent or actual disposition of the members of masonry, it is ultimately a luciferian goal being advanced. It is to your credit that you withdrew, even if you question the need to.

Just out of curiousity:

1. When you left the Lodge (demitted?), did you formally notify the lodge of your withdrawal of membership and renouncement of principles? (Obvuiously, you do not have to answer this).
2. Are you a member of the Knights of Columbus?

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com

 

[SDA2RC]

trth_skr:

SDA2RC Just out of curiousity:

1. When you left the Lodge (demitted?), did you formally notify the lodge of your withdrawal of membership and renouncement of principles? (Obvuiously, you do not have to answer this).
2. Are you a member of the Knights of Columbus?

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com

Mark,
I will respond to the rest of your post later, because I really think you have a misunderstanding of Masonry. But for your last two questions… Yes… when I demitted I wrote a formal letter to the WM and Members of my lodge, which was read during lodge meeting, explaining that I would like to demitt. I was then contacted by the Lodge Secretary to explain that the letter had been read, and my membership had been demitted per my request, and that he appreciated getting to know me. That was the last thing I heard.

1. No… not yet, but plan on looking into it. I am currently in a MBA program, have three small children, and enjoy posting on religious forums too much… therefore, I have not actively pursued it based on time.

Brandon

 

[mosher]

RCCDefender:

Can you cite some references where the early Church uses this term?
What I read on the freemason website was that Hiram Abif was stabbed to death by three other masons who had a grudge and that, like Christ, he was resurrected. I didn’t read any imagry…

I can cite you the language that is used in the Baltimore Book of Prayers. The use of the term is ancient and is not related to the diest view of the world. Now, that is not to say that a deist could not use the term for his own purposes but that is nto the intent of the title given to God the Father.

 

[mosher]

trth_skr:

SDA2RC and mosher:

I am not trying to say that every mason is an explicit lucifer worshipping zealot. The truth is likely that most masons in the US (blue lodge variety, 4 degrees, especially) are probably just involved for social, philanthropic, business, etc. reasons, much as you two are stating. On the other hand, if you made it through 32 advanced degrees, plus 4 basic ones, and still do not see the issues in it, I have to wonder! I sure hope you approach Catholic apologetics with a little more effort than you [apparently] approached your 4 lower degrees + 32 SR degrees. I imagine that getting a degree takes a total time (apply, read/study/prepare, ceremony) of at least 2 hours and more likely (if you are taking it somewhat seriously) 4-8 hours each.

The harm with masonry, as explained by the popes who spoke on the issue is the naturalistic philosophy which lays the basis for masonry. In this philosophy, there really is no need for a caring, loving God who has direct contact with humans, and leads, guides and sustains them. In fact this is considered tom-foolery. In masonry, god is some abstract concept, who animated things, then left to us to take care of the world (more or less). Regardless of the intent or actual disposition of the members of masonry, it is ultimately a luciferian goal being advanced. It is to your credit that you withdrew, even if you question the need to.

Just out of curiousity:

1. When you left the Lodge (demitted?), did you formally notify the lodge of your withdrawal of membership and renouncement of principles? (Obvuiously, you do not have to answer this).
2. Are you a member of the Knights of Columbus?

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com

Ok, first of all there are only three initiation degrees for the blue lodge and not four. Second of all masonry has not relation to lucifer in the sense of the devil. I, being one of the few who have read Albert Pike (who is not considered a formal authority) uses the term luciferian to speak about light just as the proper latin term for the person at mass the caries a candle is a lucifer.

Not only do I question the reason for having to leave I actually question the validity of the restriction against membership. As a former seminarian and a person with advanced education in philosophy and theology from an orthodox seminary and I can find very little wrong with freemasonry in the US. The same arguments used to counter freemasonry would be no different then placing a ban on the Elks Lodge, the Moose Lodge, the Rotary Club and the Boy Scouts of America. However, the one does not see the same restriction.

Now this is not to say that there are not problems in a few of the Scottish Rite degrees. And as a response to those problems the Southern Jurisdiction of the Scottish Rite has effected revisions in their degrees with the expressed purpose of trying to take out anything that would be objectionable to catholics. Because as I said earlier it is considered un-masonic to judge a person based upon their religious beliefs (within reason). In fact I am aware of discussions that have been going on in Rome with members of the Supreme Council of the Scottish Rite to help bring about some sort of understanding and reconsiliation. Thus, I would suggest not hanging ones hat on the view that something such as freemasonry is objectively immoral because I would not be suprised if there would be a day in the near future that the restriction will be lifted as it was in the late 1970’s.

And yes I am a Third Degree Knight.

 

[clmowry]

Isn’t the fundamental theological issue that Masonry holds all religions to be equally “true”.

Politically I seem to recal that some European lodges have looked to “destroy” the Catholic Church precisely because it claims to be THE Church with THE truth. (Even published statements to that effect.)

Chuck

 

[SDA2RC]

mosher:

Ok, first of all there are only three initiation degrees for the blue lodge and not four. .

Precisely…

mosher:

Second of all masonry has not relation to lucifer in the sense of the devil…

The arguement that Masonry is luciferian is about as valid as those who claim that Catholicism teaches one can become a God based on P460 of the CC. It is a total distortion of the flowery poetic language used. The FACT is that all Masons are told to put their duty to GOD, their Country, and their family before the lodge. In otherwords, their personal religious convictions are to be placed ahead of any fraternal activities. If lodge is subject to the my Duty to God as a Christian, then how can it be luciferian, unless you claim that Christians worship lucifer, which I am sure is not the case.

mosher:

Not only do I question the reason for having to leave I actually question the validity of the restriction against membership…

I agree completely. I did leave out of obedience to my Church, but I do question the reason for having to leave.

mosher:

Now this is not to say that there are not problems in a few of the Scottish Rite degrees. And as a response to those problems the Southern Jurisdiction of the Scottish Rite has effected revisions in their degrees with the expressed purpose of trying to take out anything that would be objectionable to catholics…

It is important to note that Masons do not worship at all in lodge or during their degrees, they are opened and closed with a prayer, but so is congress. The fact is that the degree’s are interactive plays that are performed from history that demonstrate certain principles. These are principles that no Christian would not completely agree with, for example, in one degree, the principle is the care that should be taken when one is in a position of judgement. The example is taken from Jewish history.

Peace,
Brandon

 

[SDA2RC]

clmowry:

Isn’t the fundamental theological issue that Masonry holds all religions to be equally “true”.

No… Masons make no claim on whether or not religions are true, they simply say that as far as the fraternity is concerned, they are all equal. Much like our government, schools and all other secular groups.

clmowry:

Politically I seem to recal that some European lodges have looked to “destroy” the Catholic Church precisely because it claims to be THE Church with THE truth. (Even published statements to that effect.)
Chuck

There is no national or worldwide authority for Masonry, so there is no National or worldwide organization that can make any claim for masonry. If an author has stated something to that effect, it is simply his opinion and my opinion in Masonry carries just as much weight. Furthermore, Masonry does not make a determination on the truth of a church, that is outside of it’s role.

brandon

 

[St.Eric]

No… I am not particularly worried about Masons destroying the Church. I am not particularly worried about ANYTHING of this world or the next destroying the Churhc, since…“and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against her for all of eterinty…” I feel pretty secure in that promise from Christ himself.

Glory be to you Lord Jesus Christ!

 

[the_phoenix]

I once became friends with a Mason at a previous place of employment.

When I let him know I was a Catholic, he defended being a Mason by saying that they were fine, upstanding members of the community, that anyone who strayed from that were individuals of whom it could not be said that they represented Masonry … and that Pope Leo XIII, who had written an encyclical against Masonry, was a “blind old man.”

Upon hearing the “blind old man” comment, I decorated my work cubicle with a picture of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and a gold angel candle.

Since he and I enjoyed sharing stories despite our divergent beliefs, I then noticed upon visiting him in his cubicle that he had decorated his own workspace with a statue of a demon. He also, during one of our conversations, mentioned that at one of their lodge meetings, they placed objects such as a bell or a feather upon an altar and jokingly knelt in worship before the items … oh, but just as a joke, he made sure to emphasize.

I was open to remaining in contact with him as a friend after my contract position ended, so I gave him my home e-mail. One time he wrote me requesting prayers for the health of an unborn baby whose father I had known at the workplace. I responded and assured him of my prayers.

The unborn baby was born healthily, the family called it a miracle, and my Mason friend forwarded me that pertinent e-mail, too. At the time, I was being persecuted elsewhere for my beliefs as a pro-lifer and as a Catholic, so I wrote him back telling him that God in His Providence had used him to encourage me in my beliefs in a timely way when I really needed it.

Since then, he has never written me back.

~~ the phoenix

 

[SDA2RC]

the phoenix:

Since he and I enjoyed sharing stories despite our divergent beliefs, I then noticed upon visiting him in his cubicle that he had decorated his own workspace with a statue of a demon. He also, during one of our conversations, mentioned that at one of their lodge meetings, they placed objects such as a bell or a feather upon an altar and jokingly knelt in worship before the items … oh, but just as a joke, he made sure to emphasize.

People have thought I like “Demons” too because I like gargoyles… but it sounds like your friend had some real interesting opinions. I can assure you that placing objects on an altar and pretend worshipping them is certainly not part of any legitimate masonic meeting, nor is playing with guns in lodge (as happened in NY a few years ago).

Degree’s are very specific down to the exact wording that must be used, and they do not contain anything like you described. Business meetings, which is the most common meeting, is just that, a business meeting, and again, unless you consider paying bills worship… nothing like that happens there either.

I am sorry for your strange experience. It is funny that so many of the experiences that people have with Masonry, mirror those of what people told me about Catholicism when I was a protestant.

Brandon

 

[the_phoenix]

Hullo Brandon,

I once wrote a poem about gargoyles, back in college. Looong time ago!

Yes, my friend did have some real interesting opinions, and he enjoyed listening to my stories as well, so he was one of the people I missed most when I finished my assignment with that company. His disrespectful name-calling comment against one of the Popes, however, was something I didn’t appreciate.

Having researched the Masons on-line, I will agree with you that nowhere in my research did I come across any documented ceremony in which Masons place inanimate objects such as bells or feathers on an altar and then kneel in mock worship. Who knows why the Mason I knew claimed that it happened? Maybe he was making it up just to pull my leg? Or maybe at his lodge, that’s what the guys did on their own initiative, just for kicks?

As for your last sentence, I can understand people having misconceptions about Masonry without their having had any experience with actual Masons. In my case, however, any misconceptions that I may have picked up about Masonry … have come from a Mason himself, based on what I witnessed of his words and actions. How would you explain his attitude towards Pope Leo XIII?

~~ the phoenix

 

[palmtopper]

Dear Mosher and SDAZRC

Why did you both demit from Masonry?

I am a master mason of a small town and I mainly joined for fellowship. We have a small group of guys my age who get together and eat and talk along with the regular business as you know. I joined the the Church in Nov. and my wife is pressuring me to demit. Before I joined My preist has said it would be alright since I do it for social and helping my community. To be honest I have never taken it to be any else than a fraternity and I still don’t. We have God with BIG G and all our members belong to a Christian church. I being the only Catholic now who regulary go to meetings. I hold the Catholic teachings to be true and have excepted it to be true with all my heart. It has taken God 12 years for this to be revieled to me. I do not hold what we say when we open or our oaths against God or the church. In fact I see more anti-Catholic from non-Catholics than masons.

I only say this because I have recently found out the penalty of my membership and the more I read against it worries me. I was currious of why you two demited if you are defending it. I am wrestling and probably justifying the Popes decision on it on to stay or demit.

One convevat, I realize the history of Freemasonry and the corruption it may of had in the 17-1800’s and even in other countries. I can see the condemation of it which I would not argue. I would be interested in information on when the mason and the Popes where in agreement. It seems like 17-1800’s is that time frame where they fell out. As Alito said during confirmation, it is ok for all reasonable men to disagree.

 

[SDA2RC]

the phoenix:

Hullo Brandon,

Ihave come from a Mason himself, based on what I witnessed of his words and actions. How would you explain his attitude towards Pope Leo XIII?

~~ the phoenix

Not knowing him… I really wouldnt know… but they could have been shaped by media, a protestant background, a skewed historical report, or personal bias. There are dozens of answers…

Brandon

 

[mosher]

palmtopper:

Dear Mosher and SDAZRC

Why did you both demit from Masonry?

I am a master mason of a small town and I mainly joined for fellowship. We have a small group of guys my age who get together and eat and talk along with the regular business as you know. I joined the the Church in Nov. and my wife is pressuring me to demit. Before I joined My preist has said it would be alright since I do it for social and helping my community. To be honest I have never taken it to be any else than a fraternity and I still don’t. We have God with BIG G and all our members belong to a Christian church. I being the only Catholic now who regulary go to meetings. I hold the Catholic teachings to be true and have excepted it to be true with all my heart. It has taken God 12 years for this to be revieled to me. I do not hold what we say when we open or our oaths against God or the church. In fact I see more anti-Catholic from non-Catholics than masons.

I only say this because I have recently found out the penalty of my membership and the more I read against it worries me. I was currious of why you two demited if you are defending it. I am wrestling and probably justifying the Popes decision on it on to stay or demit.

One convevat, I realize the history of Freemasonry and the corruption it may of had in the 17-1800’s and even in other countries. I can see the condemation of it which I would not argue. I would be interested in information on when the mason and the Popes where in agreement. It seems like 17-1800’s is that time frame where they fell out. As Alito said during confirmation, it is ok for all reasonable men to disagree.

I did not find out about the restriction against freemasonry untill I was in the seminary. I spoke to my pastor and my vocation director about it and they did not know about the problem. However, when I made the decision to truly be catholic it was in all things. I demitted out of obedience to the Church. The most recent ruling of the CDF is that while Canon Law does not specifically name freemasonry as a group that is forbidden to catholics it is still a moral issue and catholic who are associated wtih masoric organizations should not present themselves for holy communion. This is what I had to come to terms with in my life. I choose that while I know that the reasons given for masonry being a problem are not correct I do know that obedience to the Church in all Her lawful authority is necessary. Further, as I studied philosophy and theology I learned that there are some things in the degrees (in particular the Scottish Rite) degrees that are problematic. But the foundation for my decision is obedience. If you would like to discuss what I think are the true problems with freemasonry then we can do that as well.

The Church is right in resticting membership in freemasonry but not for the reasons that have been given.

 

[mosher]

the phoenix:

Hullo Brandon,

I once wrote a poem about gargoyles, back in college. Looong time ago!

Yes, my friend did have some real interesting opinions, and he enjoyed listening to my stories as well, so he was one of the people I missed most when I finished my assignment with that company. His disrespectful name-calling comment against one of the Popes, however, was something I didn’t appreciate.

Having researched the Masons on-line, I will agree with you that nowhere in my research did I come across any documented ceremony in which Masons place inanimate objects such as bells or feathers on an altar and then kneel in mock worship. Who knows why the Mason I knew claimed that it happened? Maybe he was making it up just to pull my leg? Or maybe at his lodge, that’s what the guys did on their own initiative, just for kicks?

As for your last sentence, I can understand people having misconceptions about Masonry without their having had any experience with actual Masons. In my case, however, any misconceptions that I may have picked up about Masonry … have come from a Mason himself, based on what I witnessed of his words and actions. How would you explain his attitude towards Pope Leo XIII?

~~ the phoenix

This reminds me of a conversation that I had with two seperate persons. One good catholic that I know thought that masons took an oath to kill the Pope if they had the chance and the second person thought that all Jesuits took an oath to kill masons. This is the absurdity of issue. My interest in all this is truth. I want to be able to strip aside all bias and silliness and get to the core issues and discuss the realy issues so that there can be some resolution on way or the other.

 

[SDA2RC]

palmtopper:

Dear Mosher and SDAZRC

Why did you both demit from Masonry?.

PalmTopper,
I demitted because I desired to be in obedience to the church more than I desired to be a Mason. I love the men that I got to know while in the lodge, and although I did not ever see anything that was contrary to my faith, I also realize that in all things I desire to submit my judgement to the judgement of Christ and His authority, through the church. If the church reversed it’s opinion, I would rejoin in a heartbeat, but if it doesnt, then I am happy in the Church!

Brandon

 

[palmtopper]

Thanks to you both for honest answers. It does make sense and what we all should do follow the Authority of the Church. This is one of the reasons I joined and I should abide in by my own reason.

 

[palmtopper]

• If you would like to discuss what I think are the true problems with freemasonry then we can do that as well.*

Mosher
I would like the discussion. If you want to post that would be all right, You can email me if you prefer.

 

[mosher]

* If you would like to discuss what I think are the true problems with freemasonry then we can do that as well.*

Mosher
I would like the discussion. If you want to post that would be all right, You can email me if you prefer.

The problem is not so much in the Blue Lodge per se. In the Blue Lodge we are taught to invoke the aid and blessing of God before any event in our lives. We are taught that we are to keep the confidence of our brothers unless it is unlawful or harmful. We are taught to protect the sanctifty of virginity and purity. We are taught that we are to gain knowledge because of the need to live the life of virtue. In this there is nothing intrinsically wrong.

However, there is a problem with the further degrees. While it is true that in the York Rites beyond the Royal Arch one vows to be a protector of Christianity one must ask themselves if the Christianity that is being exemplified is that which is in our belief system as Catholics. The York Rite is not an area that I can speak much futher on because I never received those degrees. However, my knowledge of the degrees leads me to the hypothesis that the image of Christianity and Christ may be so two dimentional that it would lend to a relativising of Christianity. While we believe as Catholics that all Christians hold a common faith in Christ we do not believe that participation in the activities of other Christian faiths is meritorious to the advancement in our faith life. While masonry in any form is no religion it is as Albert Pike puts it “religious in nature” in that it is a group comming together for a common good for the good. Now in central platform in the York Rite is Christ and Christianity and we must guard ourselves carefully lest we begin to assimilate in our own lives and faith practices those errors.

As for the Scottish Rite I can speak more dierectly. There are a few degrees that if left unchanged in tone and language should definatelly be offensive to Catholics. Now, admittidly the Southern Jurisdiction is working hard to fix that problem but even if these problems do go away the central message of the Royal Secret is a serious error. As pertains to the degrees themselves even though Albert Pike is not a definitive authority he did personally write the revisions of the degrees that now make up the 33 degrees. In a few of the degrees there were (when I went through the degrees) language that suggested serious anti-catholicism in light of the Dogma of Papal Infallability. Further, there are some esoteric rites that are involved in the 14th Degree that were reminicent to offering incense to a foreign god. In the Rose Croix degree the image of the risen Christ is used in a way that glosses over His true nature as God and relegates Him to just being a great if not the greatest man. However, the 32nd degree is what solidifies the problem. In that degree the identity of the Royal Secret is left hidden and one must do much study to determine what it truly is. However, it brings unity to all the degrees of the Scottish Rite which otherwise seem disjointed and at times unrelated to eachother. Well, the Royal Secret can be stated in various ways but essentially it is the idea that “God percieves the world through the eyes of all men.” While this is a cryptic response it in a sense is similar to the Gnostic heresy of the early Church which spoke about the indwelling God in a way that is contrary to what we as Catholic mean concerning the indwelling God. In a sense what one comes away with in the end is an idea that all religions and philosophies are the same and that they are just one way in which God expresses Himself to his people in the world. It is not same as the Blue Lodge which does not account a man for his indivudal belief it is more direct in that the indivudal belief really doesn’t matter. This comes in serious conflict with the teachings of the Church.

This is not an exhaustive listing of the issues nor is it in depth nor does it include problems with praxis that also occure. However to my best ability this is what I, after careful study, have found to be the issues with certain masonic organizations.

As an aside I have been thinking about the Third degree a lot lately and I am begining to see some problems with secular humanism being the foundation of the central message in the Thrid degree. However, I have not fully developed my thoughts on this issue but I am begining to be uncomfortable with the message of the raising.