Freemasonary not being warned about?

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jamesclaude:
I only wish to correct the rampant ignorance and ongoing hostility between minorities ( such as yourself ) in both Church and masonry - who are hellbent to continue being knuckleheads.
The Church, which was founded by Jesus Christ, has spoken unequivocably. You may think that rampant ignorance and/or ongoing hostility. But it is neither. It is wisdom, prudence, and instruction.
So, yes, I will stand behind what my Church has said. If that makes me a knucklehead in your eyes, so be it.

If you wish to correct the teachings of the Catholic Church, you’ll have to take a number…lots of fellas wanna be the next messiah

I bear you no ill will, btw. I just don’t appreciate your tactic.
You can’t reverse what the Church has taught. You can only verbally shoot it down by calling it, and anyone who adheres to it, names. All this, in the name of extending the hand of friendship…

Have you ever warned a Catholic about to join the lodge that he’ll no longer be a Catholic in good standing and worthy of the sacraments if he joins?
How about the three you recently installed? Are they aware of the Church’s stand?
Have you let them read it for themselves and contact the bishop, as you’ve done?
Or do you pooh-pooh it to them as “rampant ignorance and ongoing hostility,” as you’ve done here?

What we’re hostile toward is people trying to subvert the Truth.

Trying to make a case that there is a workable relationship between the Catholic Church today and Freemasonry is a lie.
No such “relationship” exists.
 
St. James:
read post #255 once more.
This is almost like a chat room tonight, it’s moving so quickly ! I’ve already addressed the shooting incident in # 258. Sorry - it was being re-edited, then re-appeared with some additions - sorry , it was my fault !

To everyone watching this tit for tat unfold - this would be the spot where I’d bring up pedophile priests or a bishop throwing orgies.

But - I promised Cestusdei, a priest ( SOMEWHERE in another anti-masonic forum thread about the Odd Fellows) that I agreed that doing things like that is contemptable and wholly unproductive.

St. James is doing what the press refers to these days as a “spin” - take the “facts” then twist 'em to suit your ends.

I cited what happened in post # 258 - the story of an old man toting a pistol to the lodge hall - a most unfortunate event which** detractors of masonry tucked under their arms like a football and ran with - and are (obviously) still running with today…**

This is really getting tiresome…if you chase off the dissenters, heretics and misled satanic baby-eatin’ masons, dudn’t it get real boring in here ? Or does everyone just gloat and sing “Another One Bites the Dust” and do the Church Lady dance from Saturday Night Live ?

Whew !
 
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jamesclaude:
this would be the spot where I’d bring up pedophile priests or a bishop throwing orgies.

But…doing things like that is contemptable and wholly unproductive.
So, here is where we’re supposed to graciously thank you for not bringing up pedophile priests or bishops throwing orgies…right? 😉

Oh, thank you, thank you! :bowdown:
 
Panis Angelicas:
So, here is where we’re supposed to graciously thank you for not bringing up pedophile priests or bishops throwing orgies…right? 😉

Oh, thank you, thank you! :bowdown:

No - here is where you don’t be a provocative knucklehead :whacky:

St.James went into detail about his version of the shooting. I mentioned no-no subjects by topic only - as points of reference.

No need for any thanks, thank you.
:tiphat:
 
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jamesclaude:
St. James is doing what the press refers to these days as a “spin” - take the “facts” then twist 'em to suit your ends.
It’s really not necessary to spin a story about a gentleman getting shot in the head at a Masonic ritual, the facts are pretty damaging all by themselves.
 
Tell us about the Maundy Thursday night ceremonies. Why are they mandatory? What is actually done on that night?

Why is it that no one is permitted to read the masonic books? One member of this forum was once a rainbow girl. Her Father a 32nd degree Scottish Rite & Shriner, and her mother an Eastern Star…When her dad died, mom had to call someone of the same rank to come and get the books. They were not to be touched or looked at…Why?

Why are there tylers at the door at each lodge meeting?

Why are you asked to take oaths such as having your throat slit ear to ear if you ever give away any lodge secrets?
 
St. James:
It’s really not necessary to spin a story about a gentleman getting shot in the head at a Masonic ritual, the facts are pretty damaging all by themselves.
It wasn’t a masonic ritual or sanctioned meeting- it was some guys hanging around at the lodge horsing around - very much like at an Elks’ Lodge or happy hour at the Shrine.

An elderly man thought that he had blanks in the gun, but didn’t. Guns play no role in any regular or clandestine masonic rituals - guns hadn’t been invented by the time our rituals where standardized.

If you were conversant in masonic ritual, you’d be aware that no one may bring anything “offensive or defensive” into the lodge room. That harkens back to when men carried swords and guns for personal protection.

Yes, you DID spin this story -

Don’t serve a pile of horse plop, then say that it’s ice cream.
 
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jamesclaude:
Guns play no role in any regular or clandestine masonic rituals …
“We don’t use pistols,” Steve Mayo, who described himself as a senior deacon of the lodge, told reporters yesterday. “This is not a Masonic ceremony where we bring pistols.”

Lt. Fitzpatrick, however, said members told police that the rite involving a gun goes back at least 70 years."

washtimes.com/national/20040309-112637-4114r.htm
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jamesclaude:
guns hadn’t been invented by the time our rituals where standardized.
Your rituals were revised by Albert Pike who was born in 1859. Guns had long been in existence by this time.

“It was Pike, the Mason, who, by the divine alchemy of the love of his fellow men, transmuted all his mental possessions into the pure gold of wisdom, poesy, patriotism, and law, and embodied them in our Scottish Rite Rituals as they were revised and spiritualized by him.” George F. Moore, “Albert Pike, the Mason,” Albert Pike Centenary Souvenir of His Birth (Washington: The Supreme Council, 1908), p. 29.

Friend, falsly accusing one of using spin is a poor means of recruit into your organization.

Outright lies, although common to masonry, are unlikely to gain respect on a Catholic forum.

Your “work” is slipshod, brother jamesclaude.
 
St. James:
Your rituals were revised by Albert Pike who was born in 1859. Guns had long been in existence by this time.

“It was Pike, the Mason, who, by the divine alchemy of the love of his fellow men, transmuted all his mental possessions into the pure gold of wisdom, poesy, patriotism, and law, and embodied them in our Scottish Rite Rituals as they were revised and spiritualized by him.” George F. Moore, “Albert Pike, the Mason,” Albert Pike Centenary Souvenir of His Birth (Washington: The Supreme Council, 1908), p. 29.
Pike was a Scottish Rite Mason - his version of the original ritual is his own update, during his own lifetime. Scottish Rite Masonry has only been around for 300 years.

**This shooting incident occurred at rural blue lodge - not a Scottish Rite temple. Two entirely different “brands” of masonry. **

Craft (blue lodge) masonry and its ritual have existed since 869 A.D.

I feel that you know this, but are simply being obtuse.

Friend, falsly accusing one of using spin is a poor means of recruit into your organization.
Sorry - using “friend” makes me feel really creepy.

That would be a major stretch of optimism to think that anyone on here is interested in freemasonry other than to learn about it or to deride it.

Outright lies, although common to masonry, are unlikely to gain respect on a Catholic forum.
That’s the pot calling the kettle black, St.James
Your “work” is slipshod, brother jamesclaude.
You obviously need to expand your Masonic library to more volumes than merely those written by Pike. But, since most of the Church’s quotes you use are from that time, maybe that’s where you wish for us to remain - stuck in the 1800’s - smack in the middle of the “bad 'ol days”.

www.masonicinfo.com/pike.htm This site deals with how modern masons view Pike and his ponderous tome: Morals and Dogma.

My work is based on pure fact - not malicious half-truths or what you choose to read into a news article.

**You are a poor example as a “defender” of your faith - Does your Church believe and endorse that the ends justify the means ? :nope: I don’t think so. **

You’ve grabbed an accidental shooting and are trying to work it for all it’s worth - pure provocation - certainly NOT any attempt for dialogue or mutual understanding…

You might as well give up on trying to portray me as a “recruiter” or whatever that’s all about - it’s utterly tiresome and self-delusion on your behalf. **Is that what’s got you all riled up ? **
 
Panis Angelicas:
Tell us about the Maundy Thursday night ceremonies. Why are they mandatory? What is actually done on that night?

Why is it that no one is permitted to read the masonic books? One member of this forum was once a rainbow girl. Her Father a 32nd degree Scottish Rite & Shriner, and her mother an Eastern Star…When her dad died, mom had to call someone of the same rank to come and get the books. They were not to be touched or looked at…Why?

Why are there tylers at the door at each lodge meeting?

Why are you asked to take oaths such as having your throat slit ear to ear if you ever give away any lodge secrets?
No answers on these, huh?
 
jamesclaude said:
Sorry - using “friend” makes me feel really creepy.

Hmmm. And I thought the purpose of your visit here was to extend the hand of friendship, brotherhood, etc…🤓

**
You are a poor example as a “defender” of your faith - Does your Church believe and endorse that the ends justify the means ? :nope: I don’t think so.
**** It’s funny how you know so much and yet to so little about Catholicism. **
St. James was citing an historic event that had nothing to do with defending Catholicism. How does that make him a poor defender of the Faith?

I think you’ll find that if you wish to challenge Church Teaching, St. James will be up to the task.
You might as well give up on trying to portray me as a “recruiter” or whatever that’s all about
Perhaps you should enlighten us to your purpose. It isn’t friendship, and it isn’t to promote masonry. What is it? Don’t tell me…you find Catholicism alluring!!! Well, that she is! But she’s not compatible with your present association.

Btw…still waiting for answers to my questions…
 
**Jamesclsude wrote:
**
My work is based on pure fact - not malicious half-truths or what you choose to read into a news article.
**
James you sly dog. You love to jump around the Catholic Forums and stir up the soup. You know your"craft" well. here are some interesting tactics we see here:

Become incredulous and indignant. Avoid discussing key issues and instead focus on side issues which can be used show the topic as being critical of some otherwise sacrosanct group or theme.

Create rumor mongers. Avoid discussing issues by describing all charges, regardless of venue or evidence, as mere rumors and wild accusations. Other derogatory terms mutually exclusive of truth may work as well.

Use a straw man. Find or create a seeming element of your opponent’s argument which you can easily knock down to make yourself look good and the opponent to look bad.

Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the primary attack the messenger ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach.

Invoke authority. Claim for yourself or associate yourself with authority and present your argument with enough “jargon” and “minutiae” to illustrate you are “one who knows”, and simply say it isn’t so without discussing issues or demonstrating concretely why or citing sources.

Associate opponent charges with old news. A derivative of the straw man usually, in any large-scale matter of high visibility, someone will make charges early on which can be or were already easily dealt with. Where it can be foreseen, have your own side raise a straw man issue and have it dealt with early on as part of the initial contingency plans.

Fit the facts to alternate conclusions. This requires creative thinking unless the crime was planned with contingency conclusions in place.

Change the subject. Usually in connection with one of the other ploys listed here, find a way to side-track the discussion with abrasive or controversial comments in hopes of turning attention to a new, more manageable topic.

Emotionalize, Antagonize, and Goad Opponents. If you can’t do anything else, chide and taunt your opponents and draw them into emotional responses which will tend to make them look foolish and overly motivated, and generally render their material somewhat less coherent.

False evidence. Whenever possible, introduce new facts or clues designed and manufactured to conflict with opponent presentations as useful tools to neutralize sensitive issues or impede resolution.

Manufacture a new truth. Create your own expert(s), group(s), author(s), leader(s) or influence existing ones willing to forge new

ground via scientific, investigative, or social research or testimony which concludes favorably. In this way, if you must actually address issues, you can do so authoritatively.

A group that takes good men and makes them better…???
Oh, almost forgot - It’s a bishop’s mitre - NOT a papal tiara. ( There have been some AWFUL and tyrannical bishops in throughout history - kings, dictators and presidents, too! ) The language of these older versions referred directly to the bad ones - such as Borgia popes- and perhaps to bishops who knowlingly move child molesting priests from one diocese to another - to molest yet again - and again. Please refer to the latest version of this degree from around 2001 - it’s lots more ecumenical, although we still teach that tyranny and evil-doers are BAD things !
Masonry stands against ANYone who tramples upon the rights of human beings - even if they’re hiding behind the Church’s skirts.
Do you throw darts at a picture of a Pope or a Bishop in addition to desecrating their garb? tsk tsk.

**
 
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SPOKENWORD:
Did you all notice the cunning serpents all around this temple both inside and outside. I wonder who they represent? And ladies and gentlement we have behind thes two curtains no other than the great architect of the universe LUCIFER :eek:
Just wanted to bump this up for aou masons to see again.See post# 190 :confused:
 
JamesClaude,

Lets look at a few facts.
  1. You are a Protestant posting on a Catholic Forum.
  2. You asked the Catholics in Austin for the Church’s stance on Masonry.
  3. I read that responce and it said that if a Catholic joined the Masons that Catholic could not recieve the Eucharist!
  4. What does that mean? It means that Catholic had separated himself from Jesus and the Church - essentially he was excommunicated, just as it has been since thew 1700s.
JamesClaude why do you think the Church says this?
 
Donald Ramsey:
Just my (name removed by moderator)ut, I used to have MORALS AND DOGMA by Albert Pike, one-time head of Scottish Rite Freemasonry, and in that book, Pike explicitly states that the Masons worship LUCIFER, and he makes it clear that he means yes, the Devil. So no, Masonry and Catholicism can never come to a real rapproachment.

Donald
Dear Donald:

If I needed to have a malignant tumor removed, I would definitely choose a 21st Century surgeon over a 19th Century one. Agreed ?

Therein lies the problem with quoting a long-dead Confederate general - who supposedly spoke for ALL of freemasonry -* because he wrote a book in* the late 19th century !

In reality, there is no “supreme Mason” - not a single member has spoken for the entire Fraternity - good 'ol Albert Pike included.
It doesn’t happen today - it probably never will.

What did Albert Pike mean when he mentioned Lucifer ?

[www.masonicinfo.com/lucifer.htm](Lucifer)

How did “Morals and Dogma” become so notorious and linked to evil ?

[www.masonicinfo.com/pike.htm](Famous Mason: Albert Pike)

“Buffet criticism” isn’t fair to ANY organization - it misses the overall picture of any earthly organization - the Church included !

If I were to judge the entire Roman Catholic Church solely by the depravity and despotism of one corrupt Borgia Pope, wouldn’t I be way off track ?

Think about it !

Peace,
  • James
.
 
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katherine2:
Thursday, George W. Bush will swear on a Masonic Bible.
Its okay Its not his fault,and it is a bible with added commentary. 😦 At least He doesnt think its a piece of furniture. :eek:
 
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katherine2:
Thursday, George W. Bush will swear on a Masonic Bible.
Well, according to SPOKENWORD Masons who honor and use Bible Scripture in their ceremonies, name their lodges after Christian saints ( St. John’s Lodge in New York safeguards the Washington Bible ), and honor St. John the Baptist and St. John the Evangelist as their patrons are devil-worshipin’ satanists.

Oh well. Can’t please everyone.

I’ve heard everything on here but that Masons bar-b-que babies on the 4th of July.

The Bible that President Bush will be sworn in upon is the Washington Bible - the first U.S. President sworn upon it was George Washington.

It was almost lost on 9 / 11 while on display near the World Trade Center, and never travels by air.

Read about it at: www.masonicinfo.com/washington_bible.htm

If there truly IS a Masonic “National Treasure”, this is it - not what you saw in the movie…

Peace,
  • James
.
 
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