French church attacked during Mass, priest murdered [CC]

[OneSheep]

The problem, IMHO, is that the violent, jihadi elements of Islam represent more than just a “strain” of Muslims. When you use the term “strain”, it almost implies a very small, unrepresentative, anomalous sub-set. While it is true that the full-blown, active Wahhabist segment may represent a smaller (but not insignificant) percentage of practicing Sunni’s…there clearly is a significant percentage of Muslims who have sympathies for their radical, ultra-conservative agenda. The mosques and madrassas of Saudi Arabia, Iran , Pakistan, Qatar, etc., aren’t teaching about love, tolerance and peaceful co-existence.

Good Morning deut,

What you are saying seems a bit counter-intuitive. For example, all people have occasions of non-peaceful coexistence, even among family and friends, so religions generally call for harmony and love.

Do you have any information that supports what you are saying, that those places of worship are not teaching about love, tolerance, and peaceful co-existence?

I mean, what you are saying makes some sense, like “these terrorists are so violent, they must come from a very violent religion” and we have plenty of references from the media. Unfortunately the media does little to explain the situation in a way that leads to real understanding.

God Bless your day, and welcome to the CAF!

 

[St_Francis]

Good Morning deut,

What you are saying seems a bit counter-intuitive. For example, all people have occasions of non-peaceful coexistence, even among family and friends, so religions generally call for harmony and love.

Do you have any information that supports what you are saying, that those places of worship are not teaching about love, tolerance, and peaceful co-existence?

I mean, what you are saying makes some sense, like “these terrorists are so violent, they must come from a very violent religion” and we have plenty of references from the media. Unfortunately the media does little to explain the situation in a way that leads to real understanding.

God Bless your day, and welcome to the CAF!

Here is information about the state of some mosques in the US

ETA: no, religions don’t generally teach about harmony and love: even Christ said, “If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple,” and told His disciples to shake from their sandals the dust of the towns that would not hear them. Not to mention the incident with the moneychangers. . .

 

[OneSheep]

Good Morning Francis,

**Continued from above **

I am confused by your long discussion about how all people sin and comments like “All of us are capable of blindness given the same circumstances, right?”

Feel free to ask for clarification! (on something specific)

Well, you and others seem to focus exclusively on forgiveness and mercy for the terrorists and continual reminders that most Moslems are peaceful.

That only comes after protecting ourselves. I have always been talking about forgiveness in terms of long term solutions, but in the short term there is also a place for forgiveness once we are ready to do so (while we are protecting ourselves!). Again, we reap what we sow.

The emphasis on the peaceful Moslems seems to push out any attention to the non-peaceful Moslems who are beheading people and selling their daughters as sex slaves, which is the primary reason for the discussions. It’s as if I were very worried about handling a cancer diagnosis and my friend kept saying, yes, but you should be grateful that your teeth are good!

I do not advocate being blind to problems or threats, Francis, you know that about me by now, right? What I am saying is that if we are really looking for solutions, we are going to get nowhere by criticizing the Quran or core Islamic teachings. Let’s look at these words again:

“There is war for money,” he said then. “There is war for natural resources. There is war for the domination of peoples. Some might think I am speaking of religious war. No. All religions want peace; it is other people who want war.”

Pope Francis

uk.news.yahoo.com/pope-francis-admonishes-dont-identify-044534409.html

I do not think I am knowledgeable enough to come up with an answer to the terrorism problem today; I do know that there are others who are much more knowledgeable who may be able to work with experts in other fields, such as psychology and military, to come up with solutions.

The Gospel has the solution, Francis. For starters, though, you might want to give this a read:

historynewsnetwork.org/article/524

It may seem a bit silly, but these little things are a start; it is a matter of developing mutual respect.

I do have several problems with how the solutions are handled in the general press, sourced from government agencies, so not just general opinion but from official sources. I have a problem with the idea that if we do anything “negative,” it will just move more people into the Daesh camp. Well, I can’t say that doing only positive things has kept people from making that move! In fact, they seem emboldened by our reluctance to do anything. So that is one area in which I think we need to understand the enemy better.

Yes, we need to understand the enemy better, and Pope Francis’ words reflect this understanding. And I agree with you generally, that worrying about creating new terrorists is not a reason for not protecting ourselves, but the CIA and military also see the problem of creating new terrorists, so they have to be careful about targeting combatants and other efforts, such as winning the hearts and minds of people.

Most of the people who really study Islam understand its multi-faceted nature and do give credence to those Moslems whom you mention. The problem seems to be a perception that saying anything negative about Islam is refusing to give credence to them

.

Well, then it would be helpful not to say things like:

“In fact, reading the Koran and Haddith, and seeing Mohammed’s life, which is presented as exemplary, shows that the Moslems who want to dominate the world have the stronger argument.”

Such a statement does not appear to acknowledge what those majority understand, and who they give credence to.

It’s hard to give the benefit of the doubt to someone who is trying to kill you.

In the situation of an immediate threat, I agree. However, it can be done when one is not being immediately threatened. Shall I give an example?

To me, the Kingdom of God includes St Michael chasing Satan out of Heaven, knights protecting the helpless from evil-doers, missionaries risking their lives to actually talk to people about the Gospel, Pope Pius V urging everyone to pray the Rosary for a victory over the Ottoman Navy, cloisters full of religious praying for conversions all over the world. . .

The families of Martin Richard, Lu Lingzi, and Krystle Campbell, as well as all the other victims of the Tsarnaev brothers who committed the bombing need to forgive, so that they can heal.

I agree whole-heartedly with the second paragraph. And well, your vision of the Kingdom still includes war. We have different visions. Do you think God wants us to continue war?

But where is there room for forgiveness on *my *part? How and who am I supposed to forgive? They have not done anything to me. I pray for their victims, and I pray for their conversion: I am not sure what you are advocating.

Mark 11:25New International Version (NIV)

25 And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.”

So, if I hold anything against the murderer at Rouen (which I did) I am called to forgive.

I really appreciate your discussing all this with me as you seem to have a good grasp on a point of view that I have been unable to understand. I am beginning to think that we are not as far apart as we seem, just at different angles.

We are not far apart because we both value the same Church teachings and Gospel!

 

[Seamus_L]

In a related matter, while mainstream media is ignoring the riots, there have been several outbreaks of serious violence in Muslim areas around Paris this last month including video of a mob yelling “Allahu Akbar” as they fire bomb a bus.

 

[JimG]

With respect to Jihadists, success at terrorism validates their theology. They believe that Allah intendes for these attacts to be successful, so the more they succeed the more their belief is validated. On the contrary, the more they are defeated, the more their theology is called into question.

 

[OneSheep]

Here is information about the state of some mosques in the US

Francis, this refers to a study done by an Israeli and an anti-Sharia activist. Do you think it might be possible that they are a little biased? It would be really interesting to see what they consider “violent”.

ETA: no, religions don’t generally teach about harmony and love: even Christ said, “If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple,” and told His disciples to shake from their sandals the dust of the towns that would not hear them. Not to mention the incident with the moneychangers. . .

As far as the “leaving your family” part, Jesus was not downplaying the importance of family, He was referring to the way that family gives us status in society. Jesus calls us to repent from the trappings of status.

“shaking dust from feet” is a means of protecting His disciples and not being over-zealous with people. There is a time to just let go.

But ah, there are the moneychangers. Hey, Jesus was human, and being fully human He was just as capable of getting really ticked as the next guy, and there is certainly a place for anger. Still, He generally taught about harmony and Love.

 

[St_Francis]

Francis, this refers to a study done by an Israeli and an anti-Sharia activist. Do you think it might be possible that they are a little biased? It would be really interesting to see what they consider “violent”.

Gee, maybe they tried hard to overcome their bias so it could pass the peer review… and then it went through another one? Do you have another study which refutes this one?

As far as the “leaving your family” part, Jesus was not downplaying the importance of family, He was referring to the way that family gives us status in society. Jesus calls us to repent from the trappings of status.

Interesting interpretation. I always thought it meant to be willing to firmly cut from your life whatever blocks your way to holiness, kind of like cutting out your eye if it causes you to sin.

“shaking dust from feet” is a means of protecting His disciples and not being over-zealous with people. There is a time to just let go.

But shouldn’t they show mercy and keep trying?

But ah, there are the moneychangers. Hey, Jesus was human, and being fully human He was just as capable of getting really ticked as the next guy, and there is certainly a place for anger. Still, He generally taught about harmony and Love.

Noooooo, no, no, no. No.

Christ was fully human, but He would never do anything wrong. He didn’t get annoyed here and vent some spleen.

He acted in the cause of justice. God is a God of mercy, yes, but we must not forget that He is equally a god of justice.

When St Michael kicked Satan out of Heaven, by the power of God, that was justice. When a knight protected peasants from evildoers, that was justice. When Pope Pius V instituted the Holy League to protect Christendom from the invasion of the Moslem Ottoman Empire, that was justice.

And they were all acting in the name of God.

 

[St_Francis]

To me, the Kingdom of God includes St Michael chasing Satan out of Heaven, knights protecting the helpless from evil-doers, missionaries risking their lives to actually talk to people about the Gospel, Pope Pius V urging everyone to pray the Rosary for a victory over the Ottoman Navy, cloisters full of religious praying for conversions all over the world. . .

I think that these two comments show where the difficulty lies. First you ask if I think that God wants us to continue war: What do you think, does God want us to ignore people who are invading and killing others? Of course God does not want us to *start *a war, but if some evil person does so, what are we to do?

What was St Michael to do about Satan? Do you think that he kicked Satan out without God’s approval? What do you think about those knights: should they have kept their swords sheathed when they someone treating another badly? Should Pope Pius V have sat back and allowed the Ottoman Empire to invade Western Europe rather than be “involved in war”?

. . .But ah, there are the moneychangers. Hey, Jesus was human, and being fully human He was just as capable of getting really ticked as the next guy, and there is certainly a place for anger. Still, He generally taught about harmony and Love.

Christ was man, but He was also Divine and incapable of doing wrong. He didn’t just have a bad day and blow up at the moneychangers, which could happen to any of us sinful creatures. What Christ did was to exercise His authority to impose justice.

The idea of justice seems to be what is missing in what you (and many others!) are saying. We are told that God is merciful, and we must be merciful too.

But what about the fact that God is equally just, and we too must be just?

Is it just to wring our hands about possibly offending peaceful Moslems* by pointing out what their founder taught and did, while ignoring the fact that other Moslems are killing and enslaving Moslems and Christians and Yazidis? Is it just to concern ourselves about taking action against these evildoers on the grounds that it might encourage others to join them, leaving Yazidis to starve on mountaintops? Leaving girls to be repeatedly raped by their purchasers while their fathers’ blood flows on the ground?

Why shouldn’t we shout from the rooftops the truth that what ISIS is doing is what Mohammed did, and what his followers did, and that this is a feature, not a glitch, in their religion? If I were to learn that this was a part of my religion, I would leave. I would stop being that religion. I would not want to belong to a religion started by a pedophile: 6 is a bit young, but 9 is ok?

To hide the truth is an excess of prudence leading to a perversion of justice. We do not have to be unforgiving to take action against people like this, but we do have to tell the truth about what is happening, we have to understand the truth about why it is happening, and we have to be brave and courageous. If nothing else, we should be praying for God’s action against those committing these heinous acts, praying for the victory of all who are fighting against them.

• btw, look up the pronunciation of Muslim: /z/ in the first 2 of 3 options

 

[zz912]

Well, then it would be helpful not to say things like:

“In fact, reading the Koran and Haddith, and seeing Mohammed’s life, which is presented as exemplary, shows that the Moslems who want to dominate the world have the stronger argument.”

Such a statement does not appear to acknowledge what those majority understand, and who they give credence to.

Perhaps you should look again at opinion polls of Muslims and their support for jihadists and violent Muslim groups.

Again, Mohammed was the perfect man and perfect prophet of Allah to Muslims. To suggest his actions were wrong is blasphemy to them. So looking at Mohammed’s conquest, violence, and brutality, it is the strongest argument that violence is inherent to Islam.

I agree whole-heartedly with the second paragraph. And well, your vision of the Kingdom still includes war. We have different visions. Do you think God wants us to continue war?

Yes. We must continue war with evil forces who are at war with us. We must continue it until His Second Coming, when the final battles will be waged and the war ended with the final defeat of satan and his minions.

 

[OneSheep]

Hello zz,

Perhaps you should look again at opinion polls of Muslims and their support for jihadists and violent Muslim groups.

Yes, perhaps I should. Feel free to find one for me, a scientific one from an unbiased source.

Again, Mohammed was the perfect man and perfect prophet of Allah to Muslims. To suggest his actions were wrong is blasphemy to them. So looking at Mohammed’s conquest, violence, and brutality, it is the strongest argument that violence is inherent to Islam.

Well, then you disagree with Pope Francis. I agree with him.

Yes, there are “strong arguments”, but arguments in themselves do not make it so. I think it is best to let the followers of Islam make statements for themselves, and since the majority are saying that Islam is not inherently violent, in doing so they discourage violence. That is a good thing, right?

Yes. We must continue war with evil forces who are at war with us. We must continue it until His Second Coming, when the final battles will be waged and the war ended with the final defeat of satan and his minions.

Yes, we must continue to protect ourselves, but I don’t take the Book of Revelations literally. To me, the Kingdom does not include war. People can learn to end all war. God does not will the discord that leads to war. God wills reconciliation.

Just an aside, we can first address the discord that we have within us. We have drives that we love, and those that we hate. To me, there is good reason for this internal discord, but there is also good reason (eventually) to reconcile with those parts of ourselves we hate. When one reconciles with all within, one can see that reconciliation is possible without. Speaking empirically, it is one and the same. Reconciliation within is reconciliation with all that is.

Peace!

 

[OneSheep]

Good Morning, Francis

I think that these two comments show where the difficulty lies. First you ask if I think that God wants us to continue war: What do you think, does God want us to ignore people who are invading and killing others? Of course God does not want us to *start *a war, but if some evil person does so, what are we to do?

I am saying that God wills reconciliation, he does not want us to continue war. The “us” is all of us, all of humanity. You remember that I have said that we must protect ourselves from harm, right? There are instances of “just” self protection, but peace is a greater justice:

wagingnonviolence.org/2016/04/vatican-conference-calls-for-nonviolence-just-peace-pope-francis/

What was St Michael to do about Satan? Do you think that he kicked Satan out without God’s approval? What do you think about those knights: should they have kept their swords sheathed when they someone treating another badly? Should Pope Pius V have sat back and allowed the Ottoman Empire to invade Western Europe rather than be “involved in war”?

There is a time for everything, right? Now is a time for reconciliation (while we continue to protect ourselves). Forgiveness and reconciliation are always the end we want.

Christ was man, but He was also Divine and incapable of doing wrong. He didn’t just have a bad day and blow up at the moneychangers, which could happen to any of us sinful creatures. What Christ did was to exercise His authority to impose justice.

Anger is not a sin, right? We can “blow up” and express anger for very just reasons. Jesus did this. We are agreeing, I think. (as usual)

The idea of justice seems to be what is missing in what you (and many others!) are saying. We are told that God is merciful, and we must be merciful too.

But what about the fact that God is equally just, and we too must be just?

Forgiveness and reconciliation are the greatest acts of mercy and justice, right? Can you think of a greater act of justice than the unification of people in His Love?

Is it just to wring our hands about possibly offending peaceful Moslems* by pointing out what their founder taught and did, while ignoring the fact that other Moslems are killing and enslaving Moslems and Christians and Yazidis? Is it just to concern ourselves about taking action against these evildoers on the grounds that it might encourage others to join them, leaving Yazidis to starve on mountaintops? Leaving girls to be repeatedly raped by their purchasers while their fathers’ blood flows on the ground?

I have already addressed this, correct? We are on the same page here.

Why shouldn’t we shout from the rooftops the truth that what ISIS is doing is what Mohammed did, and what his followers did, and that this is a feature, not a glitch, in their religion? If I were to learn that this was a part of my religion, I would leave. I would stop being that religion. I would not want to belong to a religion started by a pedophile: 6 is a bit young, but 9 is ok?

Well, you might leave, and I am sure that some do. Plenty of Catholics leave their faith because they see problems, but their leaving does not solve the problem. Every religion has some problems, but since people affiliate by religion, leaving represents a rejection of their community. We don’t like it, we feel sad when people leave the Church, right? We can say “we are addressing pedophile priest problem, we are addressing this other problem”, but ultimately some people leave because they cannot see that the Church is getting better, always.

Since my youth I have been motivated by “If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem”. Reformers of Islam are part of the solution; it is their words that help lead to reconciliation among peoples. If you are thinking “everything would be better if we were all followers of Christ”, I agree, but that would be a long-term transformation, very long term.

To hide the truth is an excess of prudence leading to a perversion of justice. We do not have to be unforgiving to take action against people like this, but we do have to tell the truth about what is happening, we have to understand the truth about why it is happening, and we have to be brave and courageous. If nothing else, we should be praying for God’s action against those committing these heinous acts, praying for the victory of all who are fighting against them.

We can pray for reconciliation, too. When we pray for reconciliation, we stay focused on the greatest goal. Sure, there are victories to win over enemies and oppressors, but what do we really want? When there is a victorious side in battle, there is a winner. When there is reconciliation, everyone wins!

As far as “understanding the truth of why it is happening”, much can be gleaned here:

catholicnews.com/services/englishnews/2016/its-not-right-to-equate-islam-with-violence-pope-says.cfm

But as I have said before, I am convinced that the people of “IS” are really doing what they think is just. Yes, they have a warped view, but it is warped for understandable reasons. They do not see the Truth, nor are they looking at long-term solutions. Their leadership and many soldiers are blinded by resentment.

 

[St_Francis]

Good Morning, Francis

I am saying that God wills reconciliation, he does not want us to continue war. The “us” is all of us, all of humanity. You remember that I have said that we must protect ourselves from harm, right? There are instances of “just” self protection, but peace is a greater justice:

Catholic teaching has always been very clear on this point: we have the right to self-defense, we have an obligation to protect others. Any further action must be within the bounds of justice.

Now, you bring up reconciliation. This word contains the suffix “con,” which means “with.”

We can reconcile only with those who want to reconcile with us. Reconciliation cannot occur without a *mutual *desire for peace. If the desire is lacking on one side, reconciliation cannot exist; all that exists is the wish of one party to the conflict.

In the face of people who want only to wage war and kill people, I do not understand what the vision is that you are advocating.

wagingnonviolence.org/2016/04/vatican-conference-calls-for-nonviolence-just-peace-pope-francis/

What action do these folks recommend those in the path of Daesh take?

There is a time for everything, right? Now is a time for reconciliation (while we continue to protect ourselves). Forgiveness and reconciliation are always the end we want.

How is now a time for reconciliation?

Anger is not a sin, right? We can “blow up” and express anger for very just reasons. Jesus did this. We are agreeing, I think. (as usual)

No, I am not agreeing.

Blowing up is inherently unjust and sinful, because there is a lack of control, which means a person is going too far and generally taking the problem personally.

One can be just as loud and vigorous as a person who is blowing up without being sinful, instead using the energy from that emotion to act appropriately forcefully. If a man were to see another man ferociously beating a child with a stick, he might yell and run towards the malefactor, pull him off and thrown him to the ground to get him away from the child.

If the malefactor were to stay in place or run away, the rescuer would not be right to punch him, because he has stopped the bad action.

Now, under what condition would the rescuer be correct in tying the bad guy up, taking him elsewhere, and keeping him confined to a small space? I could not do that, nor could my next-door neighbor; however, a police officer, an agent of the state, he could do that.

Forgiveness and reconciliation are the greatest acts of mercy and justice, right? Can you think of a greater act of justice than the unification of people in His Love?

How are forgiveness and reconciliation acts of justice per se?

I have already addressed this, correct? We are on the same page here.

So (just to be clear), you agree that something ought to be done to stop this slaughter, even if it requires military force, eg, war-like action?

Well, you might leave, and I am sure that some do. Plenty of Catholics leave their faith because they see problems, but their leaving does not solve the problem.

When a Catholic leaves the Faith, he is leaving the salvific truth. That’s really bad for him. Moreover, the problems one encounters in the Church are man-made problems which the Church teaches against.

When a Moslem leaves Islam upon realizing the bad things his religion teaches, he is leaving due to some of the teachings themselves, which is very different.

I do not see how his leaving Islam avoids solving a problem which would be solved somehow if he stayed?

Every religion has some problems, but since people affiliate by religion, leaving represents a rejection of their community. We don’t like it, we feel sad when people leave the Church, right? We can say “we are addressing pedophile priest problem, we are addressing this other problem”, but ultimately some people leave because they cannot see that the Church is getting better, always.

Catholicism and Islam are very different, so the fact that it’s a bad thing to leave the former does not mean it’s a bad thing to leave the latter.

Since my youth I have been motivated by “If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem”.

Just as an aside, there are a huge number of problems in the world about which we can do nothing aside from prayer. Does that mean you are part of every problem you are not involved in solving?

Reformers of Islam are part of the solution; it is their words that help lead to reconciliation among peoples.

Another aspect of Islamic theology is that it is not changeable. In fact, Islam teaches that Allah gave the eternal Koran to Moses and then to Christ, but each time, it was corrupted. This is why translations of the Koran are unacceptable, why even non-Arabic speakers learn the Koran in Arabic.

That aside, the reformers have a big task ahead of them.

continued below

 

[St_Francis]

continued from above

If you are thinking “everything would be better if we were all followers of Christ”, I agree, but that would be a long-term transformation, very long term.

Oh, yes, I totally agree, but I also think this is what we should pray and work towards.

We can pray for reconciliation, too. When we pray for reconciliation, we stay focused on the greatest goal. Sure, there are victories to win over enemies and oppressors, but what do we really want? When there is a victorious side in battle, there is a winner. When there is reconciliation, everyone wins!

Again, if the other side is at all interested.

I agree with the Pope that we are not at war with the entirety of Moslem people. However, those who have declared war against us or the West or the Crusaders or non-believers… there is a war, and they do not seem inclined to reconcile! We can reconcile with the 99.9% of Moslems who already are not at war with us, but to reconcile with a non-enemy seems irrelevant to the actual problem, no?

As far as “understanding the truth of why it is happening”, much can be gleaned here:

catholicnews.com/services/englishnews/2016/its-not-right-to-equate-islam-with-violence-pope-says.cfm

What do Daesh recruiters say to potential recruits to convince them to join Daesh? Certainly not, “We are paid lots of money by those for whom we act as a proxy…” That’s what I’m talking about.

But as I have said before, I am convinced that the people of “IS” are really doing what they think is just. Yes, they have a warped view, but it is warped for understandable reasons. They do not see the Truth, nor are they looking at long-term solutions. Their leadership and many soldiers are blinded by resentment.

How does this make a difference in how we behave towards them?

You think they are blinded by resentment, I believe the resentment is inherent in certain aspects of their religion. I posted a link to statements which made it cleft that the speakers/writers resented the fact that Spain (al-Andalus) is no longer under Moslem control.

To commit the heinous acts which they commit, they are far down the stages of sin.

 

[Rosebud77]

It would seem that the two incidents were each horrific in different ways: Nice had the innocence of targeted children, larger numbers, and the public setting; while the martyrdom of Fr Hamel at the moment of consecration is a violation of what is most holy, and the cutting down of great holiness.

My respectful disagreement … equally holy and equally evil.

 

[OneSheep]

Good Morning Francis,

We can reconcile only with those who want to reconcile with us. Reconciliation cannot occur without a *mutual *desire for peace. If the desire is lacking on one side, reconciliation cannot exist; all that exists is the wish of one party to the conflict.

Yes, and God will this! And remember, it takes two to reconcile, but it only takes one to forgive! (With some help from the One of course)

In the face of people who want only to wage war and kill people, I do not understand what the vision is that you are advocating.

How is now a time for reconciliation?
How are forgiveness and reconciliation acts of justice per se?

Well, first of all they don’t “only want to wage war and kill people”, Francis. What they want is justice in terms of economic justice and political power. They want to defeat their enemies, and they want the world to join them in what they see as the right way to live and worship in the world. Surely, there are many other wants, but they are seeing war and killing as a means to an end.

So, in terms of a vision that the Gospel advocates, it is one of reconciliation. We forgive our enemies, which is what we reap. We reap forgiveness, mercy, which inspires others to forgive and be merciful.

Definition from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Justice is here taken in its ordinary and proper sense to signify the most important of the cardinal virtues. It is a moral quality or habit which perfects the will and inclines it to render to each and to all what belongs to them.

The reception of mercy belongs to everyone. The habit of forgiveness is a perfection of the will.

Now, as always, is a time to have the goal of reconciliation. It is a process, and we can start with forgiving when we are ready to do so. All religions value forgiveness and reconciliation, it is just a matter of getting the ball rolling!

What action do these folks recommend those in the path of Daesh take?

So (just to be clear), you agree that something ought to be done to stop this slaughter, even if it requires military force, eg, war-like action?

Like you said, everyone needs to protect themselves and others, including by use of force or violent action.

No, I am not agreeing.

Blowing up is inherently unjust and sinful, because there is a lack of control, which means a person is going too far and generally taking the problem personally.

I used “blow up” with scare quotes. Uncontrolled anger is likely to lead to sin, and to hang onto anger may be a state of sin. IMO, there is a place for anger, and using anger to motivate ourselves, as long as it does not lead to sin.

When a Catholic leaves the Faith, he is leaving the salvific truth. That’s really bad for him. Moreover, the problems one encounters in the Church are man-made problems which the Church teaches against.

When a Moslem leaves Islam upon realizing the bad things his religion teaches, he is leaving due to some of the teachings themselves, which is very different.

I do not see how his leaving Islam avoids solving a problem which would be solved somehow if he stayed?

Well, if Catholics emphasized that we have the right to genocide because the tribes of ancient Israel were involved in such, a Catholic could work towards de-emphasizing this teaching and explaining that we are called to be merciful. If Catholics justified an offensive war saying “Jesus said he brought a sword” a Catholic could work toward correcting the misreading.

The same goes for Islam. There are Muslim people working to downplay and explain past violence by saying it was okay back then, in those circumstances, but not so today. These people are part of the solution.

Just as an aside, there are a huge number of problems in the world about which we can do nothing aside from prayer. Does that mean you are part of every problem you are not involved in solving?

I think that we can agree that prayer is very much part of solving problems, all problems. When we pray, we are part of the solution.

 

[OneSheep]

Again, if the other side is at all interested.

I agree with the Pope that we are not at war with the entirety of Moslem people. However, those who have declared war against us or the West or the Crusaders or non-believers… there is a war, and they do not seem inclined to reconcile! We can reconcile with the 99.9% of Moslems who already are not at war with us, but to reconcile with a non-enemy seems irrelevant to the actual problem, no?

I agree, a need for reconciliation involves some discord, and we are not in discord with the majority of Muslims. The idea is to do what we can to get the other side interested in forgiving and reconciling!

How does this make a difference in how we behave towards them?

When we come to understand what someone else has done in terms of “how they did this, yet are still people we can love” it changes the natural dehumanization/demonization of the enemy that takes place in our minds. Jesus calls for us to love our enemies, but this is very difficult to do. Through prayer and understanding, we can be graced with the ability to love our enemies (forgive) and seek reconciliation.

 

[JimG]

“But when Cardinal Raymond Burke stated empirically that Islam is motivated by a relentless intent to subjugate all other cultures to its creed, the archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, said: “I don’t think that helps at all.” Martin went on to say: “Long term solutions come from education.” Thus, Mohammed himself might have been more restrained in his volatile personal habits if he had attended a decent prep school. Long-term solutions are no consolation to Christians right now as they are beheaded, burned alive, tossed from rooftops, mutilated, and crucified.”
–Fr. George Rutler, Tolerating Terror

Bad theology leads to bad action.

 

[OneSheep]

“But when Cardinal Raymond Burke stated empirically that Islam is motivated by a relentless intent to subjugate all other cultures to its creed, the archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, said: “I don’t think that helps at all.” Martin went on to say: “Long term solutions come from education.” Thus, Mohammed himself might have been more restrained in his volatile personal habits if he had attended a decent prep school. Long-term solutions are no consolation to Christians right now as they are beheaded, burned alive, tossed from rooftops, mutilated, and crucified.”
–Fr. George Rutler, Tolerating Terror.

Hi Jim,

I agree completely that when people are immediately threatened, there is no consolation in long-term solutions and anything other than efforts toward protection are inappropriate. However, when the initial fear, anger, and other forefront issues have passed, we can take the steps to forgive, even while protective measures are ongoing.

Timing is very important, no doubt. Now is a time for prayer - and action.

 

[JimG]

Hi Jim,

I agree completely that when people are immediately threatened, there is no consolation in long-term solutions and anything other than efforts toward protection are inappropriate. However, when the initial fear, anger, and other forefront issues have passed, we can take the steps to forgive, even while protective measures are ongoing.

Timing is very important, no doubt. Now is a time for prayer - and action.

Any time is a time for prayer. Any time is a time for action, as needed. My only point is that one must not misattribute the motivations for ISIS actions, attributing the motivation to what we might expect or wish rather than what ISIS tells us and their moral theology backs up.

 

[OneSheep]

Any time is a time for prayer. Any time is a time for action, as needed. My only point is that one must not misattribute the motivations for ISIS actions, attributing the motivation to what we might expect or wish rather than what ISIS tells us and their moral theology backs up.

Not sure what you are saying is incorrectly attributed. Are you saying that you agree with the Holy Father, or do you disagree?