French church attacked during Mass, priest murdered [CC]

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Oh I’m no fan or their regime, I’m just saying there is a reason why ISIS is thriving in Syria and it was the first rich Islamic country that popped into my head. Lebanon and Jordan are great examples of Muslim nations that are doing their best for the Syrians.
Yes, Jordan is doing its best to help refugees (I don’t know about Lebanon, but I’ll take your word for it). The attitude of the wealthy Arab nations to their fellow Muslims is appalling. It does seem like they do perhaps want all the refugees to go to Europe in order to spread Islam (which is also part of ISIS’s strategy).

I don’t think it is poverty that led to the rise of ISIS (Lebanon and Jordan have not spawned ISIS) but rather the power vacuum left in Iraq that led to ISIS filling this gap (we really messed up there with disastrous consequences) then the instability in Syria and Libya added to that. But we should not make the mistake of assuming that ISIS are motivated by anything other than religion. They are motivated through a jihad and wish to convert the world, through force, to Islam. For ISIS this is definitely a religious war. They keep telling us this and when we say otherwise they are quick to correct us. Perhaps we ought to step out of our preferred narrative and world views and lusten to what oyr enemies are saying.
 
Good Morning Josie,

**The people who hung Jesus thought that what they were doing was right. **All of us are very capable of such blindness. Resentment blinds the workings of our conscience, it severely and automatically hampers empathy.

Or, am I missing something else? I am still very open-minded to your suggestions, and I am grateful for the discussion.
The people who killed Jesus knew he was innocent and no one believes killing an innocent person is right. Even Pilate tried to wash his hands from this dirty deed. The Jewish authorities hated Jesus for no justifiable reason. Can you tell me why they thought killing an innocent man was right? Even if they believed he was a liar when He told them He was the Son of God, does that give them the right reason to condemn Him to death?
 
Yes, Jordan is doing its best to help refugees (I don’t know about Lebanon, but I’ll take your word for it). The attitude of the wealthy Arab nations to their fellow Muslims is appalling. It does seem like they do perhaps want all the refugees to go to Europe in order to spread Islam (which is also part of ISIS’s strategy).

I don’t think it is poverty that led to the rise of ISIS (Lebanon and Jordan have not spawned ISIS) but rather the power vacuum left in Iraq that led to ISIS filling this gap (we really messed up there with disastrous consequences) then the instability in Syria and Libya added to that. But we should not make the mistake of assuming that ISIS are motivated by anything other than religion. They are motivated through a jihad and wish to convert the world, through force, to Islam. For ISIS this is definitely a religious war. They keep telling us this and when we say otherwise they are quick to correct us. Perhaps we ought to step out of our preferred narrative and world views and lusten to what oyr enemies are saying.
Yes, but if you go down the road of “religion is the motivation of ISIS”, then you have to accept blame for all of the torture and crimes during the Spanish Inquisition that were carried out without Vatican consent, because of some over-zealous Christians.

Just because a sizeable minority of a religion is ridiculously over-zealous in the worst way possible is no reason to tar the entire religion with that brush. When have the fundamentalists of a religion ever been representative of what that religion truly stands for?
 
People can judge for themselves. Pope Francis has declared a Year of Mercy and I am glad of it.
I can only hope that ISIS might also proclaim a year of mercy.
But no-one should care what motivates them. The IRA said they were fighting a war of independence and deserved to be treated like prisoners of war. But they were nothing short of terrorists using nationalism as their excuse to commit despicable deeds, they deserved no respect. No-one should care what sort of a war ISIS think they are fighting; all terrorists have a cause.

Pay no attention to anything they say, refuse to be afraid and crush them.
 
The people who killed Jesus knew he was innocent and no one believes killing an innocent person is right. Even Pilate tried to wash his hands from this dirty deed. The Jewish authorities hated Jesus for no justifiable reason. Can you tell me why they thought killing an innocent man was right? Even if they believed he was a liar when He told them He was the Son of God, does that give them the right reason to condemn Him to death?
Was it right to burn Joan of Arc alive at the stake? Roman Catholic bishop Pierre Cauchon pushed strongly for her condemnation.
 
Yes, but if you go down the road of “religion is the motivation of ISIS”, then you have to accept blame for all of the torture and crimes during the Spanish Inquisition that were carried out without Vatican consent, because of some over-zealous Christians.
I thought that the Inquisition was instituted by Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) in Rome.
 
Yes, but if you go down the road of “religion is the motivation of ISIS”, then you have to accept blame for all of the torture and crimes during the Spanish Inquisition that were carried out without Vatican consent, because of some over-zealous Christians.

Just because a sizeable minority of a religion is ridiculously over-zealous in the worst way possible is no reason to tar the entire religion with that brush. When have the fundamentalists of a religion ever been representative of what that religion truly stands for?
The problems with the Spanish Inquisition were greatly exaggerated by Prorestant propagandists. In reality, people who had the option between the Inquisition and the regular legal system opted for the former as it was more fair.

Additionally, one cannot fault a religion for the actions of those who go *against *the teachings of the church, can one? The issue wrt Islam is whether Islam teaches violence against others or not.
 
But no-one should care what motivates them. The IRA said they were fighting a war of independence and deserved to be treated like prisoners of war. But they were nothing short of terrorists using nationalism as their excuse to commit despicable deeds, they deserved no respect. No-one should care what sort of a war ISIS think they are fighting; all terrorists have a cause.

Pay no attention to anything they say, refuse to be afraid and crush them.
Did the IRA follow Geneva Conventions regarding resistance fighters? No, therefore they had no right to be treated as POWs.

but one still needs knowledge of the enemy to defeat them, so we do have to pay attention to the why.
 
Yes, but torture was never permitted. The horror stories you hear were not sanctioned by the vatican.
The papal bull ad extirpanda by Pope Innocent IV is often quoted as allowing torture to extract confessions (although it did place some restrictions on its use). The New Catholic Encyclopedia (green books) have an article on torture which goes into some details.
 
But no-one should care what motivates them. The IRA said they were fighting a war of independence and deserved to be treated like prisoners of war. But they were nothing short of terrorists using nationalism as their excuse to commit despicable deeds, they deserved no respect. No-one should care what sort of a war ISIS think they are fighting; all terrorists have a cause.

Pay no attention to anything they say, refuse to be afraid and crush them.
Whether or not anyone else cares what ISIS thinks about their own motivations, ISIS cares. And it can elucidate its reasons from passages in its holy books. Now if a Christian asserted that the Gospels promote—even require–violence, one would expect most Christians to disagree, and to provide an analysis of why the violent interpretation is wrong, citing the Gospels and expounding on their meaning. But one doesn’t hear most Muslims engaging in disputation over interpretation of the Qu’ran with ISIS. Apparently that is because no interpretation is allowed, or necessary. One can only assert that most Muslims are not, in practice, violent, and that is quite true. But does anyone dispute the ISIS interpretation as being egregiously wrong? Has any prominent Islam authority, say in Saudi Arabia, announced that the ISIS interpretation of the requirements of its religion is absolutely wrong?

In an article in the Catholic World Report, Father James Schall, S.J., writes this:

“I write these comments as an admirer of the Islam of ISIS. I do not, of course, admire what it does in terms of terror or destruction. While Islam is, as I judge it, a false religion, it is held by true believers who are much more accurate in their reading of their own classical texts than any of their critics. The struggles within Islam itself between Sunni and Shiite interpretations of Islam are not, as such, disagreements about these ends or even the means to obtain them. What is going on cannot simply be explained in terms of modern political theory, by psychology, by economics, or by social science. It can only be explained by taking what the Qur’an and Muslim tradition say of itself and the means by which it can propagate itself.”

But that is only an excerpt. Father Schall’s exposition is well worth studying in its entirety, here.
 
How many other people were burned alive at the stake for religious reasons?
Still wrong. No where in the Gospel does it say burning people is acceptable. Where this idea came from I do not know, but I am sure it was not taught by Jesus Christ and it does not seem very Christian to me. People can believe they are doing the right thing, when what they are doing is evil. The devil has a way to convince people wrong is right, and right is wrong.

We see it today all the time. We may not burn people at the stake for religious reasons, but we know some Catholic priests have been guilty of sexual abuse on boys. Did they not know it was wrong, or did they convince themselves it was somehow acceptable under their circumstance? Were they just weak to the temptation? I do not know. I know it was wrong though, but I do not blame Christianity or Jesus Christ, I blame it on human weakness. These people were not able to overcome the temptation, I do not see how it is the fault of their religion.
 
Yes, but if you go down the road of “religion is the motivation of ISIS”, then you have to accept blame for all of the torture and crimes during the Spanish Inquisition that were carried out without Vatican consent, because of some over-zealous Christians.

Just because a sizeable minority of a religion is ridiculously over-zealous in the worst way possible is no reason to tar the entire religion with that brush. When have the fundamentalists of a religion ever been representative of what that religion truly stands for?
Its not a case of ‘going down the road’ of saying that religion is the motivation for ISIS, they have said so themselves, very clearly. They wish to spread Islam through a jihad, convert the world to Islam (through force) and hasten armageddon.

Whether this fits into our view of how the world ought to be or how religion ought to be is irrelevant. ISIS are motivated by Islam and as far as they are concerned they are carrying out a holy war.

Others have replied concerning the Inquisition. And no, I do not believe that ISIS represent most Muslims. But they are nevertheless Muslims, they are motivated by Islam, for ISIS this is a religious war. They follow a ‘prophetic methodology’ whereby they base their actions on the actions of Mohammed.

We can of course choose to ignore this and continue to live in our own narratives, where all religions are good, and nobody who did anything evil of wrong could be doing this as a result of being motivated by religion. Or we could open our eyes and ears to what is going on and to what the perpetrators are clearly telling us their motivels are.

They told us they would initiate a Caliphate in Iraq and Syria, they hsve. They told us they would flood the Mediterranean with refugees, they have. They told us they would send their fighters in using the refugees as cover, Western governments still seem in denial about this.

They hsve told us why they hate us and that they plan to nake us convert or die (unless they classify you as a pagan in which case it seems conversion is not an option given). Thry have told us they want to take our women as sex slaves. They have told us they plan to fly the flag of ISIS over the Vatican and execute people in St Peter’s Square. They have told us they want to do all this for religious reasons.

They are not joking. We can either wake up and take them seriously or live on our own bubbles until it is too late.
 
Still wrong. No where in the Gospel does it say burning people is acceptable. .
The Papal Bull, ‘Exsurge Domine,’ of Jun 15, 1520, condemned the errors of Martin Luther and his followers. In this Bull, Pope Leo X repudiates the following Protestant teaching:

#33. That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit.
So if you claim that it is against the will of God that heretics be burned, you are endorsing something which has been officially condemned by the Vicar of Christ.
 
The Papal Bull, ‘Exsurge Domine,’ of Jun 15, 1520, condemned the errors of Martin Luther and his followers. In this Bull, Pope Leo X repudiates the following Protestant teaching:

#33. That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit.
So if you claim that it is against the will of God that heretics be burned, you are endorsing something which has been officially condemned by the Vicar of Christ.
I do not think anyone should claim the will of God, do you? I can say that people in the past have made mistakes, including popes. I am not accusing anyone of making a mistake, just saying it is possible.
 
Good Morning Francis,
Yes, each item I mentioned is an actual case, and if you want, I can link to articles for each one.
Please do!
Sorry, the same folks who say that had no problem with “P*ss Christ,” or the “Holy Virgin Mary” surrounded by elephant dung and pornography. The former win an award and was partially funded by the National Endowment for the Arts, and the latter was exhibited in three European cities, won the Turner award, and sold for $4.5 Million. Pictures of each are all over the Internet.
Well, it speaks well of Christians that they are forgiving of those who wish to disrespect Christian images, but in Islam the forbidden use of images is much more central to their faith, so it’s not exactly a comparable violation.
It is a sign of respect when a private individual omits information; it is censorship when the government does it. We are taking so much care of the Moslems that we are losing our own free speech, and falling into lying.
I don’t think censoring hateful speech meant to recruit kids or indoctrinate lies is “respectful” to the writers, though. It is respectful of public safety and the wish to save these kids from lying propaganda. Perhaps you could link me an article?
I did not say that, either. I said, let it *slide *with just a hashtag.
That still sounds like pacifism, inaction, right?
It still bothers me that you assume that any thought that something ought to be done stems from an unforgiving and resentful desire for vengeance. There is such a thing as righteous anger: a desire for justice (giving to each his due); and there is still such a thing as “unreasonable patience,” as St Thomas Aquinas puts it.
If righteous anger involves acts for justice deliberately carried out without mercy in mind, and forgiveness (if applicable), then it is not righteous, right? Sure, we can look back on some acts with justice intended and say “Well, that turned out okay”, but if the act was not coming from a loving heart in the first place, the results could go either way. When it goes the wrong way, we don’t say “his anger was righteous”, we say “he acted out of blind anger”.
While there is no change in the call for mercy or forgiveness, there is an effect in other areas, but overall, I agree, we disagree on this!
Yes, we can rely on the Spirit to guide the Church, and God’s will be done.
Perhaps it is important for them to consider what I have been saying as well. if they do not deal with those parts of the theology overtly, they will remain available to evil doers to lure their children into terror.
Well, they are not going to delete any words of the Quran any more than people will delete words of the Bible. My Bible has plenty of footnotes in sections where people could take things the wrong way. Hopefully the Quran has the same?
Only some Moslems teach that abc should not be used from fear of financial problems. Mohamed himself seems to have said nothing about it.
Of course Mohamed said nothing about it, they had no means of such. But can you see? All religions evolve, and those of “IS” who claim to be the true fundamental Islam are making it up as they go. Their interpretations are extremist, not fundamental. The fundamentals boil down to God’s mercy:

O My servants who have transgressed against their own souls, despair not of the mercy of Allah. Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Truly, He is Most Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Surah az-Zumar 39:53)

You see, it is a matter of starting in the right place.

Thanks, and send me those links!
 
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