Frustration in being continuously told "its just a date"

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What a sad thing, that friendship is seen as something to be avoided. The phrase “just a friend” breaks my heart. I have never, ever, seen a marriage last where the two of them are not friends.

Can you honestly imagine marriage with someone where you cannot relax, go without makeup and mussy hair on Saturday, where you cannot be sick or tired or upset, where you can’t just say stupid things or ugly cry? You want to spend a lifetime with someone, you’d better be good friends.

The Catechism says:

2347 The virtue of chastity blossoms in friendship . It shows the disciple how to follow and imitate him who has chosen us as his friends, who has given himself totally to us and allows us to participate in his divine estate. Chastity is a promise of immortality.

Chastity is expressed notably in friendship with one’s neighbor . Whether it develops between persons of the same or opposite sex, friendship represents a great good for all. It leads to spiritual communion.
 
BoomBoomMancini said:
If you’re known as the guy who is always talking about porn and masturbation, even to oppose it…well, it just might give you a weird vibe.
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Very very good advice.

Maybe give talks on other things, start a book club to read “Brideshead Revisited” or “Chronicles of Narnia” or “Come Rack! Come Rope!” Start a dinner club, where once a month you all go to a different restaurant and publish a review in the student paper.
 
TheLittleLady said:
What a sad thing, that friendship is seen as something to be avoided. The phrase “just a friend” breaks my heart. I have never, ever, seen a marriage last where the two of them are not friends.

Can you honestly imagine marriage with someone where you cannot relax, go without makeup and mussy hair on Saturday, where you cannot be sick or tired or upset, where you can’t just say stupid things or ugly cry? You want to spend a lifetime with someone, you’d better be good friends.

The Catechism says:

2347 The virtue of chastity blossoms in friendship . It shows the disciple how to follow and imitate him who has chosen us as his friends, who has given himself totally to us and allows us to participate in his divine estate. Chastity is a promise of immortality.

Chastity is expressed notably in friendship with one’s neighbor . Whether it develops between persons of the same or opposite sex, friendship represents a great good for all. It leads to spiritual communion.
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No, the problem is not that “friendship is something to be avoided.” The problem is those who are deemed worthy of a close friendship are summarily excluded as possible candidates for the friendship of marriage. That is where the term “friend zone” came from! People unfortunately feel as if the qualities one would look for in a friend and a spouse are precisely what removes them from the running. Of course that is discouraging!

Those were jokes about how people can feel when they have friends of the opposite sex who complain they “can’t find anyone” when the same people won’t agree to try dating any of their friends who would be interested in it. Why? Sometimes, it is because people are afraid that if they decide not to marry a friend, they will not only strike out in the marriage department but will also lose a friend and disrupt their social circle.

Other times, however, it is because in spite of having all the deeper aspects that lead to a healthy and holy marriage, the Christian friend who would be interested in marriage lacks some quality that is more fleeting, such as having certain looks, a certain body type, a slick way with words, a thrilling risk-taking personality, a willingness to use flattery or the like. Worse yet, I am afraid, sometimes they are excluded from consideration because they are deemed “too religious” by a fellow Catholic when they don’t have anything like an OCD relationship with the faith. (Yes, it is understandable that someone would have reservations about marriage to someone who has embraced their obsessive-compulsive behavior as if it were a sign of sanctity. The OP, however, has had spiritual directors and friends deny that this is the case with him, so I believe him on that.)
 
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I never talk about how good I am at bowling or all the awards and money I’ve won from it. But when I wheel in 6 bowling balls with tape and slugs and towels and custom jerseys and shoes, it gets pretty serious lol, I also a bowling coach so 😛

I did bowl against a Catholic girl in state tournament back for my high school team that I was captain of, we both went at each other with 220s, was pretty cool. My dad was also friends with her father so there was some rivalry as well
 
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Usually when I public speak, most I have done is in front of 43 people, my voice gets deeper then it usually is (and it’s already fairly deep) and I talk slower and more serious. Normally I laugh way too much and sometimes have trouble getting words out because I’m laughing, and I laugh when I’m nervous. But I’m not nervous public speaking, I enjoy it.

I have met Fr. Michael Gaitley and Benedict Groeschel
 
I do have other interests, like I’m very into sports and am very athletic. I’m wondering if I come across as not really human, maybe I’m seen as “the guy who reads his Bible everyday outside the chapel and leads the religious clubs” as opposed to “a guy who does these religious things but also has a life outside that which is also interesting and worth learning about”
 
GospelOfMatthew said:
maybe I’m seen as “the guy who reads his Bible everyday outside the chapel and leads the religious clubs” as opposed to “a guy who does these religious things but also has a life outside that which is also interesting and worth learning about”
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Bingo. If people see you at Mass, they already know you’re a practicing Catholic. It’s okay to put other aspects of your personality on display from time to time.
 
I think I’m a bit obsessive and sometimes that shows 🤭. I’ve had girls ask me what music I listen to… bit awkward to say the only music I listen to are church hymns, praise and worship, mass settings, and concert band songs lol. Or I’ve said that I play 3 different instruments and they ask what songs I play and I say church songs I transposed lol. I’m guessing none of this makes me look like interesting
 
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It’s not that it makes you look uninteresting. It makes you look one-dimensional. Why don’t you expand your tastes a bit? Explore some non-religious music for example.

Obviously not saying you need to stop listening to Christian music. Just don’t ONLY listen to Christian music.
 
Hey Matt, out of curiosity, do you feel like I’ve been presumptuous or abrasive in the suggestions I’ve made in this thread? Have I offended you? Do you think I’ve been dispensing specialized medical advice?

Just, uh, wondering. 😜
 
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PetraG said:
Those were jokes about how people can feel when they have friends of the opposite sex who complain they “can’t find anyone” when the same people won’t agree to try dating any of their friends who would be interested in it. Why? Sometimes, it is because people are afraid that if they decide not to marry a friend, they will not only strike out in the marriage department but will also lose a friend and disrupt their social circle.

Other times, however, it is because in spite of having all the deeper aspects that lead to a healthy and holy marriage, the Christian friend who would be interested in marriage lacks some quality that is more fleeting, such as having certain looks, a certain body type, a slick way with words, a thrilling risk-taking personality, a willingness to use flattery or the like. Worse yet, I am afraid, sometimes they are excluded from consideration because they are deemed “too religious” by a fellow Catholic when they don’t have anything like an OCD relationship with the faith. (Yes, it is understandable that someone would have reservations about marriage to someone who has embraced their obsessive-compulsive behavior as if it were a sign of sanctity. The OP, however, has had spiritual directors and friends deny that this is the case with him, so I believe him on that.)
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That’s how I understood those memes, and thought they were very good.

I often hear anecdotal evidence of men complaining that they’ve been “friend zoned” by women who claim to be looking for a man just like them, and I hear women admitting that other women do it.

I suspect that the problem is somehow worse today than ever as women are being constantly bombarded with messages about how fantastic they are, that they can be anything they want, and not to settle for second-best, but that men on other hand men are a bit dopey. The value of men’s work is being constantly underrated and taken for granted. Today, to be “a good provider” is just the start of a man’s obligations to a wife and family, and after that he’s got to be funny, sexy, available, empathetic, etc. In the past being a good provider was about half of it, followed by fidelity and stability.

I’ve heard that 80% of the women on dating sites are only interested in 20% of the men. That’s not surprising in their initial aspirations when they first arrive (we all are deluded!), but if it stays that way and they expect to find someone then there’s a serious problem.

Most divorces in the west are initiated by women who have simply lost interest in a hubby who has done nothing wrong, apart from not keeping her tingling for year after year.
 
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TheLittleLady said:
You once mentioned that when you do your public talks, your friends say your voice changes.

As someone who has coached public speaking, and who knows quite a few “famous” people, that is interesting.

Have you ever met Dr Scott Hahn or Matthew Kelly or Teresa Tomeo or Fr Andrew Apostoli or any of the well-known Catholic speakers? Thing is, Dr Hahn’s speaking voice is the same when he is presenting to a crowd of thousands and when he is eating lunch across a pic nic table. Teresa Tomeo is the same on air as she is when she is talking cookie recipes over a glass of wine.

The speakers you often post about, Matt Fradd for example, speaks in a natural voice.

That guy who does all of the movie trailers? His voice sounds like that in an interview or when he orders pizza.

Public speaking voice should only be a change in formality of terms, “projection” and volume if you do not have a good sound system. I have taught stage presentation, the very first thing I have to teach people is to speak in your natural voice. We tend to raise our voices to a much higher range or a much lower range when those nerves kick in. It is not unusual for a person who has had a struggle with confidence to be so used to speaking in this “nervous” range that it has become a habit.

Begin to catch yourself when you hear that “changed voice” kicking in and reel it back to normal GoM. In social situations, there is no need to over project, a softer volume will cause people to listen more attentively (just don’t slip into inaudible mumbling).
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Thanks for free the public speaking tips! I do a bit of speaking in my job, and also as a lector at Church.

I was not aware of the importance of sounding “natural”. On the contrary, I was once advised that a business presentation should be approached as a performance of Hamlet, and I tend to project and talk over my audience.

I think the “Hamlet” advice applies to preparation and timing, but for the voice I like your advice to make it sound the same as if you were at a picnic! 🙂 Still, sounding “natural” probably comes easier with good preparation.

But then, in lector training at church we were told to “proclaim” the Word, not just read it, with the expectation that there be some modification of the voice. At a second training a few years later we were told the opposite! (The first was a priest, and the second was lay).
 
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Yes, it is always other guys and other women who are looking for all the wrong things. Not us, mind you, but definitely people we know, LOL. (Humans, we are a hoot, aren’t we?)

C.S. Lewis talked about this in The Screwtape Letters; this is from Letter 20:
"… meantime I would like to give you some hint about the type of woman—I mean the physical type—which he should be encouraged to fall in love with if “falling in love” is the best we can manage.

In a rough and ready way, of course, this question is decided for us by spirits far deeper down in the Lowerarchy than you and I. It is the business of these great masters to produce in every age a general misdirection of what may be called sexual "taste". This they do by working through the small circle of popular artists, dressmakers, actresses and advertisers who determine the fashionable type. The aim is to guide each sex away from those members of the other with whom spiritually helpful, happy, and fertile marriages are most likely. Thus we have now for many centuries triumphed over nature to the extent of making certain secondary characteristics of the male (such as the beard) disagreeable to nearly all the females—and there is more in that than you might suppose. As regards the male taste we have varied a good deal…

To the point of this thread, no force with grace behind it would be directing people to wish to be valued for something other than either their true selves (warts and all) or else for their real virtues. Instead, people–especially women!–are encouraged to base their self-esteem on whether or not they pose a near occasion of sin to the opposite sex, all while expecting a good man won’t see them as a sexual partner at all. What else can this be, but a strategy designed to make truly Christian marriages as rare as possible, even between two life-long Christians?
 
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PetraG said:
Instead, people–especially women!–are encouraged to base their self-esteem on whether or not they pose a near occasion of sin to the opposite sex, all while expecting a good man won’t see them as a sexual partner at all.
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Then there’s me on the sideline going “I’m here!” :raising_hand_man:t2:😀
 
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So, to the OP: You need to find women who aren’t in your direct social, parish or work circle, since they are more likely to turn you down out of fear of either losing a friend or seeing the other half of a bad date on a regular basis. In your shoes, I wouldn’t be above allowing myself to be set up on blind dates (or set-up dates) with women recommended by people you know. Double-dating is OK. Whatever. Just find some of those “just a dates” you are looking for.
 
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