Frustration in being continuously told "its just a date"

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Unfortunately, I’ve done this. I studied psychology even, and emphasized (personally) body language. I definitely know the body language of a woman who is interested. I’ve seen all the behaviors you describe. It is common for a woman to also barely touch her food (because she’s too interested in talking) at lunch and for them to mirror your behavior regarding when you take drinks of your water or whatever else you’re drinking. I can think of a woman in particular who “registered off the charts” as being interested in return. But when I asked, she said she’d never (her word) date me and ended our friendship.

I can’t stress enough that I do, in fact, know what I’m doing. I know how to ask. I know when to ask. I know what to look for. I didn’t always know, but I have for a long time. That’s most of why getting rejected so much is frustrating. I can only guess that I’m doing something different than other men around me that I don’t realize I’m doing. But as of yet, I can’t figure out what it is.

Though I must say seeing that other people struggle here in this thread is strangely uplifting.

Still, this was more about being taught by popular Catholic speakers that its not a big deal to ask a woman on a date when all the women I see are treating it like it is. I feel like if we would stop putting men and women on different pages on this issue, we’d see more dating. Its really demoralizing to a guy to truly believe that its not a big deal and the nature of your relationship can go right back to what it was if she says no, only to be blindsided with the end of a friendship for no apparent reason. Other guys I’ve talked to who struggle to get a yes concur that it really kills their motivation to bother asking.
 
I use to study up on all the “signs” of attraction in women, I know them all. The secret, look to where their feet are pointing when they are standing talking with you and look where their knees are pointed when sitting. All these stupid tricks we are told to look for. The dead honest truth is, women aren’t animals and shouldn’t be dissected on a plate. There is a reason these signs and tricks don’t produce the results we want, because they don’t work. Some women are naturally more open with their body language, it doesn’t mean they are interested but this has been shoved down our throats as the way to find women. Shy women aren’t going to be angling their shoulders towards us, doesn’t mean they aren’t interested.

Sooner we give up on over-analyzing women the better. I’ve been in conversations with women where I’m thinking “wait did she just inhale twice then exhale?.. great! That means he’s interested!” I didn’t have a clue what she was actually talking to me about because I’m too busy dissecting her like a frog.

What kills my confidence and motivation isn’t just a no. I can take a no because not everybody likes everybody. What makes me lose it is when a nice Catholic girl at daily mass who seems all interested and friendly decides to go dating the party-animal jock. Lessen learned: if I spent more time listening to what she was actually saying and less time dissecting her rapid eye movement and ‘preening’, things might of went better. And this has happened with multiple women for me, I’m sure the same for you.

We gotta give up the bag of tricks, it doesn’t work. Treat an animal like an animal and a human like a human, not some rat in a cage
 
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PetraG said:
C.S. Lewis talked about this in The Screwtape Letters;
"… meantime I would like to give you some hint about the type of woman—I mean the physical type—which he should be encouraged to fall in love with if “falling in love” is the best we can manage.

_In a rough and ready way, of course, this question is decided for us by spirits far deeper down in the Lowerarchy than you and I. It is the business of these great masters to produce in every age a general misdirection of what may be called sexual "taste". This they do by working through the small circle of popular artists, dressmakers, actresses and advertisers who determine the fashionable type. The aim is to guide each sex away from those members of the other with whom spiritually helpful, happy, and fertile marriages are most likely. Thus we have now for many centuries triumphed over nature to the extent of making certain secondary characteristics of the male (such as the beard) disagreeable to nearly all the females—… As regards the male taste we have varied a good deal… _

To the point of this thread, no force with grace behind it would be directing people to wish to be valued for something other than either their true selves (warts and all) or else for their real virtues. Instead, people–especially women!–are encouraged to base their self-esteem on whether or not they pose a near occasion of sin to the opposite sex, all while expecting a good man won’t see them as a sexual partner at all. What else can this be, but a strategy designed to make truly Christian marriages as rare as possible, even between two life-long Christians?
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There are some good general principles there, but my own feeling is that in contemporary society it’s women who make greater demands of men, and also have much higher expectations in dating. This is more than the age-old flaws for both sexes described so well by C.S.Lewis.

My opinions are based on what I hear from men, but also from women who have worked professionally in dating, from where they report the unrealistic expectations of women. Most of these are not Catholic women, but I suspect the mentality seeps across.

I note what you are saying about the distress that women feel at being measured by their attractiveness. That is a valid and touching concern, but I think a separate topic from the practical problems for men in dating we are discussing here.

About half of the married women I know in my parish are married to a non-Catholic. I can’t understand how this has happened. Were there no Catholic men available when they were young (in the 60’s, 70s, and 80s), or did they “friend zone” the Catholics in favor of someone more attractive, hoping to convert him (in which they have all been unsuccessful)?

Still, I greatly commend this insight from Lewis:
The aim is to guide each sex away from those members of the other with whom spiritually helpful, happy, and fertile marriages are most likely.
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We often hear about Satan undermining marriages, which is true, but in this way he attacks marriages in the lives of those who are still single.
 
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I do find it rather weird I must say, when a devout Catholic women says she’s looking for a practing Catholic guy then she goes and starts dating a non-religious person. I can think of a specific example at my college, when I met her she was already dating this guy and still is but I’ve heard her mention she always wanted to be with a Catholic guy so what happened?

A Catholic guy who is a good friend of mine at college dated an atheist a year ago and now a Baptist. Makes zero sense to me as he’s said he’s always wanted to date a Catholic girl and then does the exact opposite. Sure there is great graces in wanting to convert someone and doing so is amazing, but does this not strike anyone else as weird at all? Could this just be a lack of maturity on their parts? Anyone know what I’m talking about?
 
I have one friend in his early fourties who has bluntly declared, after twenty years of looking for a Catholic wife, “I’ve given up on Catholic women”.
 
  1. Attitude is everything
    This includes, but is not limited to: body language, the way you act around her, how you talk, the way you treat others, etc. Not saying these all apply to you, but everyone has things they can improve on themselves, so you can attract the opposite gender.
  2. Communicate and impress with confidence
    Stand and sit straight, talk in a firm voice, smiling and giving high fives or clinking glasses in a room automatically makes you look like a cool dude everyone knows and is attracted to, etc. Don’t suck up to anyone either.
  3. Tease her
    A lot of guys mess up on this and just make fun of her. Instead, while you’re talking to her on a date and she shares about how she plays or played soccer, you can reply “Really? I never knew you were the soccer type” with a smile. Be light and playful. You want to make her feel like being with you is special, teasing her shows you don’t put her on a throne and bow down to her like other men do. And believe me, if she’s good looking, guys do that all the time and it gets boring. All said, do not forget to compliment her, but not too much prior to getting serious cause then it reduces the value of your compliment.
  4. Text her right
    Don’t be too clingy as mentioned in one of the sections above. Don’t be the one who replies ASAP every time while she takes 2 hours between texts. If she leaves you on read, don’t take it as a big deal, send another text and act like nothing happened. Send her some funny memes, cute pics, whatever. If she tries to shake you off, remain calm, interesting, and playful. I’ll leave an example below. Use the winky emoji and this one 😏 (doesn’t look this weird on your iphone, I promise)
  5. Dress well
    LAYERING! Women love layering. A simple flannel over a hoodie, jean jacket over a hoodie, a light windbreaker over a hoodie, all looks nice. Pair that up with a nice pair of checkered or plain black vans and lightwash jeans (chinos are good too), and you’re a magnet. The truth is most guys just don’t care about your appearance, but when you show you do, it’s attractive. Tip, make sure your pants are slim fit, you don’t need to be slim to wear them, and baggy pants are ugly as heck. Don’t wear those ugly plain grey sweats out of the house. Don’t wear jeans and sandals or oversized shirts.
Extra
Move fast. Be bold. Communicate your attraction directly, don’t pussyfoot around it, that’s why girls put you in the friendzone, you weren’t upfront about your attraction right away, so they thought you just wanted to be friends.

Check out Alpha M on youtube for tips on style, or teachingmensfashion. I’d be happy to help you out on any questions, reply or message. Best wishes.
 
Edmundus1581 said:
There are some good general principles there, but my own feeling is that in contemporary society it’s women who make greater demands of men, and also have much higher expectations in dating.
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There was a time when an adult woman without a husband or sons was in an extremely vulnerable position economically (and in a plain safety sense) and was considered pathetic in a social sense, whereas bachelors could support themselves and didn’t necessarily suffer from loss of social status.

Now, women feel as if they can be parents without men. I have even known some with a fatalistic attitude of “why not? it isn’t as if he’ll still be here when the children are in high school anyway.” Being a single mother doesn’t make women into pariahs as it once did, being single isn’t a recipe for an impoverished old age, and so no, women do not fear being unmarried as they once did. (I think avoiding marriage out of fear of divorce is VERY common in both sexes.)

That is–until they reach 30 or 35 and realize they may not be fertile very much longer, if they are still fertile at all. Then it can be a different story, because single parenthood is simply not an option every woman is going to consider. Even among those who don’t have a problem with sex outside of marriage, parenthood out of marriage is a different matter. Yes, sadly I know people who only got interested in marriage when (a) they became fearful they’d never become parents or (b) they became fearful they’d be alone when they got old because nobody would want to “date” them any more.

But yes–there is definitely a Gloria Steinem “A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle” attitude that lulls some women into thinking that they give nothing up by putting off marriage indefinitely. I would say, however, that men have had the “luxury” of that attitude in many eras (if one would call it that).

Why do some women marry non-Catholics? Why does any Catholic marry a non-Catholic? I’d say it is because people either think it is somehow discriminatory to only date Catholics or they date Catholics and they are underwhelmed with how important the faith is to the Catholics they happen to date. (Possibly because they “friend zone” their more serious Catholic friends.) Being lukewarm towards religion can seem less of a fault in someone who has never had the advantage of parents who raised them Catholic. Alternatively, sometimes when Catholics date non-Catholics, they fall for a particular person, and they decide that for this person they’ll make an exception to their plans to marry a Catholic.

If you don’t want to marry a non-Catholic, then don’t date non-Catholics. That may sound harsh, but why give someone the idea that you’re interested in them as “more than a friend” when you have no intention of marrying them? I will tell you that many people think that is not fair or not charitable or makes dating more important than it is. Doing otherwise, however, is a good way to end up married to a non-Catholic. (That doesn’t mean your children won’t be raised Catholic, but it does mean you’ll go through life without a fellow Catholic as a spouse.)
 
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NappingDragon said:
Though I must say seeing that other people struggle here in this thread is strangely uplifting.
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I cannot tell you how many people I know who NEVER want to have to date–or, more precisely never want to have to find someone to date–ever again. These are people who love being married! They just hated the period of life when they were “dating” but had no steady romantic interest (or worse, had one who was a poor match).

It is fun to meet someone who is as interested in you as you are in them and the period of courtship can be a thrill, but male-female social interactions during the period when neither party knows if they want to go further and both are afraid that one but ONLY one of them is going to develop a huge crush on the other is enjoyed by EXTREMELY few people. I suppose people who get a thrill over all their successes in being wanted might enjoy it, but most people I know were not just happy to meet the person they married but relieved that they never have to go through that again.

Finding your own spouse instead of submitting to an arranged marriage has many things to recommend it–I’m not suggesting we go back to parents choosing spouses for their children as if it were a business transaction!–but it can be a very unpleasant process for a lot of people, all the same. You should not feel out of the ordinary if you are one of the ones who isn’t getting a big thrill out of it.

The good news is that this does not mean you won’t marry and won’t be very happily married when you do. One grandmother reportedly chided her discouraged grandson with the her not-very-uplifting maxim–there isn’t a scraggly horse anywhere but that you can find a scraggly bush to tie him to–but the truth is you do only have to find one woman who is mutually a good fit for you. After you marry, none of this dating stuff matters any more, except maybe to make you a bit more thankful. Your wife certainly won’t mind knowing that you don’t have a stable of ex-girlfriends likely to show up and make a nuisance, LOL.

If all you ever see yourself as is a bachelor who does occasionally like to socialize one-on-one with a woman, I’d say that there does seem to be a “break the ice” phase when people go from not dating to finding the way of arranging an outing that does work for them. I hope you find yours soon.
 
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Ahhh, just go say a 54 day rosary novena to Our Lady.

Pretty simple.
 
Edmundus1581 said:
But then, in lector training at church we were told to “proclaim” the Word,
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My advice to lectors is based on whether or not there is a sound system. If you have a mic, go practice with the mic. Understand where the mic is, how it picks up your voice if you move around.

Proclaiming is about speaking clearly, distinctly (say “you” instead of “ya”, “The” instead of “tha”, don’t run words together), speak slowly in fact speak so slowly it almost feels weird (we speed up when we are nervous).

Be sure to look up proper pronunciation which is easy with the internet. I cringe when I hear “Prophesy” and “Prophecy” mixed up. One is a noun, one is a verb and they have distinctly different pronunciations.

Breathe.

There is no need mimic an armature actor from the 30’s 🙂
 
AMEN!

People, even women, often point their feet or knees in a certain direction because that is the physically most comfortable position.

I always like a “barrier” in front of me, a desk, a pillow on the sofa This is because I have intense shoulder pain if my arms dangle, not some sign that I am shut off to people.
 
GospelOfMatthew said:
so what happened?
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This non-Catholic guy asked her out and was interesting, funny, kind. The first date went well, there was a second date and a third and pretty soon a bond. This is why, when working with teens, I advise them “If you want to marry a non-smoker, don’t date smokers. If you want to marry a vegan, don’t date carnivores. If you want to marry a Catholic, do not date non-Catholics. Falling in love, attachment, can happen FAST.”
 
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This is with respect to Catholic women being married to non-Catholics.

I was not Catholic when I was younger but I know a lot of attractive Catholic women back then. Most of them did marry fellow Catholics but later on the husband gave up on the faith. This happens a lot more than you think.

Those that did not marry fellow Catholic, some were ignored by Catholic men and so dated non-Catholics and some did as you noticed, friend zoned potential Catholic husbands.

Catholic women are not a monolithic whole.
 
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Friendship, camaraderie, romance, these are all attachments. Why would attachments be bad?
 
Can’t attachments risk someone to being too dependent on someone else for their self-worth? Then if the attachment breaks, the person is crippled emotionally?
 
Well there’s attachment and then there’s co-dependence.

The latter leaves you crippled emotionally.
 
There is healthy, normal, beneficial attachment and there is unhealthy attachment AKA co-dependence. These are not the same thing.

Would you be sad or cry if your dog died? if your best friend were drafted to the military and sent away for years? if your pastor were re-assigned to a place where you would not see him again? You have normal, healthy attachments.

Now, would you go into a catatonic state and never recover if your dog died? Then that is likely an unhealthy attachment.
 
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