Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints

[lovesMary]

You guys make some very good points. I pray that help is found for these women, and that the truth comes out in the end. I agree, they needed to look into matters, it sound like these women were being held as sex slaves.

 

[Jerusha]

The way I am understanding this, polygamy is considered a practice between consenting adults. Therefore, just as sodomy is no longer considered illegal, because it was a matter of legislation of morality, polygamy can no longer be prosecuted, even though the laws are on the books.

Polygamy as practiced by FLDS entailed coerced marriage, underage sex, and incest. Therefore, it is illegal not because it is polygamy, but because it justifies other things which are criminal.

It is not a problem of religious rights, but a problem of legislation of morality. What one culture considers to be immoral, another culture considers moral. If no-one is hurt, it cannot be legislated against.

 

[twopekinguys]

Many people in the world don’t know who their biological parents are, such as adoptees and products of artificial insemination. Also, there are millions who don’t know who their fathers are because of the promiscuity of their mothers. They seem to survive fine. In fact, society, and The Church, bends over backwards to avoid “judging”, mostly in the interests of not hurting the child.

So tell me why the government is suddenly so appalled that men are having sex with more than one woman, or that underage girls are having sex? Isn’t this the same government that hands out condoms in the highschools?

I’m not condoning this cult, but I am saying that we live in a free society that tolerates many variations in human behavior that I don’t approve of. The same CPS organization will work so hard to reunite a foster child with his/her drug abusing, prostitute mother. I hope they give the same consideration to these people.

Good questions. You’re right, we do our best, not to hurt the child in those situations. It really isn’t their fault.

Many of the things you bring up,(promiscuity, adultery,underage sexual activity, etc),can be, and should be corrected by us as parents. I have said before, it comes down to us as parents to teach our children what is correct. It is also our responsibility to elect officials that share our views on morality, and hold them to their campaign promises.

As far as your statement about adoptees, etc. not knowing their parents, and growing up fine. That is true to an extent. Many adoptees search out their biological parents. Many children of promiscuous parents search out their missing parent. Some successfully, some not. Artificial insemination is an animal unto itself, but there are cases where the donor has been found. People want to know their “roots”.

What we have to keep in mind in this situation is that the Texas authorities acted on what they thought was a “credible” report of abuse. Yes, states do return children to prostitute parents, or drug abusing parents, but that is after the entire process is complete. (I don’t know their criteria) The state at this point is not saying they won’t return the kids, they aren’t returning them until they are sure they should.

Also, how can an attorney represent a child, and get them back to their parent, without knowing who the parent is?

It is very early in the entire situation. I think there is alot more information to come.

 

[rmcmullan]

It is very telling to see all the mormons so aggressively defending the polygamists.

Interesting. I did not condone polygamy, in fact I was particular about my criticism of it. But at least I am trying to see it from another point of view.

And you claim that it’s not cultural? Did you follow that link? Most muslims would not be very horrified and there are a lot of muslims. I’m not a PC person but your reaction only make sense if you hold current American culture above all others and only correct where it differs with others.

As for the sex slaves and brainwashing allegations. That’s mostly inflammitory rhetoric. Is there no other way than totally dismantling the FLDS? You’re too totally opposed to everything they do and believe to work with them to introduce reforms?

 

[twopekinguys]

I have a couple of questions.

Do you think they would be willing to introduce reforms? Even minor or moderate reforms would bring them more into the mainstream, which appears to be something they have purposely avoided.

1. Regarding the “brainwashing” statement(s). Do you think the reactions that you have seen from the women fits the situation? I am sure their reaction at the time of the removal was somewhat different, but during news interviews, there is little to no emotion being displayed. Not to make light of the situation, but I have seen people get more upset in traffic that I have seen from these women.

 

[Jerusha]

I think that the isolation in which these people have lived, mistrusting the outside world, is the problem. If the LDS church would allow polygamy, now that it is not illegal, then FLDS could merge with them.

As for the children, culture shock would further traumatize them. Foster care with emotionally healthy LDS families (if there are any such ) may be the best option to transition these children to the outside world.

LDS bears the responsibility. If they are willing to take it.

If this is all they have known, and they do not know it is abnormal or illegal, and have been taught (or terrorized) to deny thier feelings-- and believe that they had no rights--

 

[J_C]

Interesting. I did not condone polygamy, in fact I was particular about my criticism of it. But at least I am trying to see it from another point of view.

i guess you missed the many whyme posts in which he has praised the plomygimists as wholesome and happy lifestyle.

Most muslims would not be very horrified and there are a lot of muslims. I’m not a PC person but your reaction only make sense if you hold current American culture above all others and only correct where it differs with others.

i am under the impression that plylygamy is not widespread in the world and is mostly practiced in what most would consider to be backward cultures, such as many of the moslem areas. you seem to be suggestingg that it is being practiced all over the place.

As for the sex slaves and brainwashing allegations. That’s mostly inflammitory rhetoric. Is there no other way than totally dismantling the FLDS? You’re too totally opposed to everything they do and believe to work with them to introduce reforms?

i’m surprised. i’d have thought the Utah mormonns would be first in line to dismantle the FLDS seeing as these extremeists are putting such a harsh lamp on the mormonn religion. yet you appear to be in sympathy with them for “everything they do and believe.”

myself, I pity them. from the looks of them they are in company with the Jim Jones and Waco cults. This is the history of separatist cults that come under the domination of one or a handful of strange men. sometimes they all end up dead, gunned down by each other, poisoned, suicides, children and all. This is what the state of Texas fears, not because it is far fetched, but because it has happened repeatedly in recent memory, and in Texas to boot.

 

[twopekinguys]

I think that the isolation in which these people have lived, mistrusting the outside world, is the problem. If the LDS church would allow polygamy, now that it is not illegal, then FLDS could merge with them.

As for the children, culture shock would further traumatize them. Foster care with emotionally healthy LDS families (if there are any such ) may be the best option to transition these children to the outside world.

LDS bears the responsibility. If they are willing to take it.

If this is all they have known, and they do not know it is abnormal or illegal, and have been taught (or terrorized) to deny thier feelings-- and believe that they had no rights--

Technically, I think polygamy is still illegal. Meaning you can only have one “legal” wife in the eyes of the law. It just gets down to what you call all of the others. i.e. girlfriends, mistress, etc. If someone is a legal wife, they are entitled to the benefits of their husband, but a spiritual wife, mistress etc. woudn’t be.

I would agree with you though, that if these children need to be placed in foster homes, by all means, an LDS family should be considered, if not preferred, assuming they are emotionally healthy.

 

[Rightlydivide]

There is a major difference between sex in high school and the institutionalized abuse of children that this cult promotes.

Is the teenage pregnancy rate at this place higher than any urban high school in America?

These girls are raised from birth to understand that they are property, to be given away to a man.

 

[Zooey]

The way I am understanding this, polygamy is considered a practice between consenting adults. Therefore, just as sodomy is no longer considered illegal, because it was a matter of legislation of morality, polygamy can no longer be prosecuted, even though the laws are on the books.

Polygamy as practiced by FLDS entailed coerced marriage, underage sex, and incest. Therefore, it is illegal not because it is polygamy, but because it justifies other things which are criminal.

Yes. This is the heart of the problem.
Calling what is going on in this group (and other like it) “polygamy” is soft-pedaling the real fact that what is happening is rape. It is sexual abuse of children.

As for the children, culture shock would further traumatize them. Foster care with emotionally healthy LDS families…may be the best option to transition these children to the outside world.

I hadn’t thought through to that, but you are:thumbsup: right. The kids would be in an environment where they would be less confused, than if they were put with just any family.
I think that probably any conservative religious family would be a better choice at this point, than putting children into a situation where they believe it is controlled by evil, which I understand is what they have been told about the world outside the cult.

Jerusha:

If this is all they have known, and they do not know it is abnormal or illegal, and have been taught (or terrorized) to deny thier feelings-- and believe that they had no rights–

Those women are like zombies, almost. They make me want to cry…I am sure that there are some there who want out, & are afraid to go, from fear of being outside their little world…

These people need . Espedcially the kids, but many of the women know nothing else…

 

[RC_Matt]

The government overstepped its bounds in this case. However, texas is now attempting to salvage a botched raid by trying to find some evidence of widespread abuse to prevent a massive lawsuit against eh state. The government is now doing DNA testing to attempt to find who the parents are for these children. It is ridiculous of course and very traumatic for the kids.

Texas overeacted as did some posters in this section of the forum.

No, what is patently ridiculous is the bit about these people not knowing who the parents are; sure sounds like obfuscation/conspiracy to me. If you really buy that line, than there’s a bridge in New York I’d like to sell you for a very reasonable price. They know very well who the celestial husbands of the girls are, DUH. If there are underage girls who are pregnant or mothers, the state is entirely justified in doing DNA testing if they are not receiving cooperation from the cult. Given the history of this group, and the known behavior and teachings of its revered (and now imprisoned) leader/prophet, the state has sufficient probable cause to conduct the investigation. Sorry if that offends your bizarre pro-polygamy sensibilities, but that’s just the way it is.

Dude, if you think this kind of stuff is ok, you really need to speak to all those Priests, Nuns and Opus Dei people you hang with and get some serious help.

 

[PaulDupre]

There is a major difference between sex in high school and the institutionalized abuse of children that this cult promotes.

These girls are raised from birth to understand that they are property, to be given away to a man.

Thank you, Rebecca for so clearly pointing out what should be an obvious distinction. The confused thinking and moral relativism evinced in so many of the responses in this thread leave me shaking my head.

God love you,
Paul

 

[tbuley]

I for one am glad I live in a country were “Big Brother” can come in and take 400 kids force them to undergo examinations and make them take DNA tests, maybe we can send them down to a soviet re-education camp. Don’t forget children if you hear your parent say any thing wrong to report it to the officials right away so we can send the Gestapo to your house. Christians and home schoolers are part of an authoritarian group who oppress woman by raising them their values they don’t even think woman should have a “right to choose” lets not give them back their kids, we will give them to homosexual foster care providers who can raise them right.

 

[Cat]

A few points:

1. I call many men my “Father.” To anyone on the outside, this seems unnatural, but Catholics understand why we do this and it isn’t unnatural at all, is it?
2. In most states, underaged marriage IS legal with the consent of the parents.
3. In any given Catholic Church (or any denomination outside of Catholicism), there is (statistically, anyway) a number of parents who are abusing their children and using the Scriptures (twisted) to justify their abuse. Would it be appropriate for the government to take away ALL of the children from ALL of the parents in that church because of a few people?
4. Zombies? I’ve seen home-schooled kids who are more “zombie-like” and “controlled by their parents” than these Mormom kids. When people are part of a very closed community of any kind, they seem a little strange to people who are not in that community. But this doesn’t mean that something “bad” is happening in their community. Frankly, I think it would behoove many of us to be much more separated from the evil influences in our society.
5. Polygamy is sinful. But so is homosexuality (practice of the sex act) and fornication and adultery, yet the government not only condones these behaviors, but castigates those who dare to “judge others” or “impose our morality” on others. WHAT gives the government the right to impose morality (whose morality) on this Mormon sect? The fact that there are children involved? Children? A 13-year old girl is not a child in many non-Western societies.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Is the teenage pregnancy rate at this place higher than any urban high school in America?

 

[Auriel]

The reaction were heavy handed. In most cases there is an investigation before children are removed. There is also a Constitutional challenge here and a gross lack of due process. They treated every family as one household, yet it is a 1700 acre ranch with individual homes. Also by law every child has to have an attorney. Some did not even get to meet their child until the day before.

CPS already admitted they did DNA testing without the Courts permission. These kids were stripped down and body searched for any signs of sexual abuse. If they were not traumatized before they sure as hades are now! Especially after pulled pulled away at gunpoint. Also the number of children in custody was lowered. That is because they rounded up quiet a few women, they screamed at them and told them they were teens, not in their twenties. There is still an 18 yr old in custody now who CPS refuses to release even after having an official birth certificate. The sad part also is that they are taught that the outside world is evil. That belief most surly has been reinforced through this experience.

The expert witness said the religion is harmful for a child’s emotional development. But then admitted on cross examination that he knew nothing about the religion except for what he has heard on tv reports. But how many say the same thing about other religions? You must see that this is a very dangerous case. Even Catholism is still seem by many as a Cult.

The parents must have Attorneys. But the Judge confiscated all the womens cell phones when they lied to the mothers and seperated them from their children. The Attorneys complained bitterly that they had no means to contact the mothers. It proved difficult.

CPS wanted to strip the parents of all rights and place the children up for adoption. One went into labor, they want to take that baby too. They are also insisting that the children be placed as far as 5 counties away. This will make it hard for any mothers to even visit the children, that is if they are allowed, and CPS knows this. Dallas and Austin areas are being considered. The highest crime rate areas. More trauma. This is an attack against religious freedom no matter how disguised.

The Ranch is a Ranch, not a compound. That is just more rhetoric. There were no stockpiles of weapons, and when the authorities burst through in armored vehicles all carrying heavy weaponry they were met with mothers weeping, praying, and singing.

So far they found three pregnant teenagers, ages 17 and 18. There is no evidence so far of the allegations. Their teen pregnancy rate is about 3%, well, from what they can prove so far. The state of Texas has the highest teen pregnancy rate in the United states, (I believe it is 39%), and the 5th highest in the world.

The Texas Rangers were called to Colorado Springs to question 33-year-old Rozita Swinton who was arrested for false reporting. She has a history of this and they found a connection to her and the ranch. They will bring the evidence up next week to their officials see whether or not to file their own charges against her.

I believe they are a bunch of religious nuts. But in our country they have the right to be religious nuts. And also the right to due process. If there has been abuse or abuse in other states I doubt very seriously after seeing whole families destroyed a victim would want to come forward now. And in this case it seems said victim never existed. The man named did not even live there, and in fact resided in another state.

Just my opinion, for what its worth.

Peace

 

[twopekinguys]

I cannot believe for the life of me how people can be coming down on the state of Texas for doing this.

We are talking about the abuse of children!!!

It can be emotional, psychological, or physical. The first two take a little more time to determine than the third, but it all takes time. There are 400 children involved.

They acted on what they believed to be a *credible *report. Period. Considering how forthcoming these people have been with providing any information at all, what choice did the state have? Do you expect the state to remove one child at a time?

Of course they are going to examine the children for signs of physical abuse. Unfortunately, that would involve removing their clothes. Most abusers don’t leave marks and scars where they can be easily seen.

Yes, the children have lawyers, and the mothers have theirs. Which is a good thing. If you’ve got a crazy or abusive parent trying to get their kid back, who’s going to watch out for the kid?

Also, when so many people in that compound have the same surname, DNA testing would aid in knowing who the biological mother is. If they don’t deal with specific biological family units, this will never end. In other words, little Johnnie Smith is removed from his parents house for possible abuse, and Susie Smith, Sara Smith, and Joan Smith all come to claim the kid, who are you going to release the kid to?

I go back to my previous comments. This is about the children. I’m sorry if the parents feel picked on, persecuted, railroaded, abused or whatever you want to say. It is about the kids.

How many of the people on here who are complaining about what the state did would be complaining if the state received a *credible *report and did nothing? We have heard those stories on the news more than once, and complained about the state not doing anything. How about the reports that we’ve all heard about where a family has multiple reports with CPS, and the child is returned several times, and then ends up dead?

I would rather the state do their job and be found wrong than not doing their job, and an innocent child end up dead.

Think about it.

 

[Cat]

We have to be very careful about demanding that the government get involved with “cults.” MANY people see Catholicism as a cult. MANY women see Catholic women as “oppressed” because they are “commanded” to use “rhythm” method instead of real “birth control,” and because some women have many babies (There is a woman in our parish who has given birth to seventeen babies).

MANY people consider homeschooled children as “abused” because they think they are not receiving an adequate education and because they think they are not being “socialized.”

MANY people consider ANY religion to be oppressive because it teaches that there is such a thing as “sin.”

Many people, e.g., the State of Californian, consider it abusive and even criminal to spank a child.

Always keep in mind that the same media that presents pro-lifers as “extremists” and “terrorists” is the same media that is feeding us all that we know about this situation.

Again, I believe, as our Church teaches, that polygamy is a sin, and that God’s plan for marriage is one man/one woman/forever. These people will answer to God for their sin.

But I don’t think that there is anything inherently sinful about older men marrying very young women. That’s just our Western mindset, but it’s not necessarily the truth. My patron saint, St. Ruth, married a man much older than herself, and God used this marriage to help bring about the birth of Our Savior, Jesus.

And there is nothing inherently sinful about limiting the choices of children and teenagers. We all do that, don’t we? We should do that. The Amish do that, and so do many other religions. Today when you order your child to attend Mass, remember that you could be accused of “oppressing” your child.

I just feel so sorry for those little four year-olds. Why didn’t they allow them to stay with their mothers under supervision? Some of those little ones might have still been nursing–how horrible for mother and child! Wow, is Texas going to be slapped with a lawsuit of all lawsuits! Over 400 children snatched out of their mothers’ arms–it’s awful. Imagine your little one being taken away from you because of the alleged “crime” of someone else.

Why on earth didn’t the FBI or some other police organization do an undercover study of this place before the big raid? Find out the truth first before making a mess out of it? Now it’s too late.

 

[LaMar]

I for one am glad I live in a country were “Big Brother” can come in and take 400 kids force them to undergo examinations and make them take DNA tests, maybe we can send them down to a soviet re-education camp. Don’t forget children if you hear your parent say any thing wrong to report it to the officials right away so we can send the Gestapo to your house. Christians and home schoolers are part of an authoritarian group who oppress woman by raising them their values they don’t even think woman should have a “right to choose” lets not give them back their kids, we will give them to homosexual foster care providers who can raise them right.

That’s not what’s happening.

Children were being mistreated by authority figures in their community. The people of Texas wisely decided to temporarily remove the children while they investigate the matter. The courts will not hold the children indefinitely without cause. They’re simply erring on the side of caution for now, which is wise and prudent.

The courts will not allow the state to indoctrinate any of the children on religious matters. Ours is a secular society. There is freedom of conscience in the United States. The children are free to remain fundamentalists. They’re simply not allowed to indulge in sexual activity with adults. Those children which have not been abused will be returned to the custody of their parents shortly.

Everyone has the right to a childhood free of mistreatment and abuse by adults. The State is forced to take extreme action when suspicions like these arise. The alternative is abandoning American children to physical and psychological harm.

 

[PaulDupre]

Well posted, LaMar.