Funny thing my 14 year old thought

[Walking_Home]

My comments stand. And, mommy, you are not correct that I am looking to be offended. Does a fish look to be caught? Nope, just swims along doing his fish things.

Many of the so-called Traditionalists, those who claim obedience–absolute and utmost–obey noone but themselves. There is a huge disparity in their statements of belief and their actions. On very many levels.

I do not like much of what I read on this Traditionalist Forum, ma. And it has nothing to with the TLM, Traditional Catholic Piety or Reverence. Because I have found little that has to deal with the TLM in any substantial way, no Traditional Catholic Piety or Reverence.

I have encountered a group of well meaning people who have taken to heart Jesus’ first --and greatest-- commandment, but have dismissed His second.

They have made themselves victims, who then grow up to become perpetrators. And Bishops and Cardinals and Popes.

---

Before taking the stab at Traditionalists obeying themselves–you should have taken the time to learn where the Church stands on this. The stripping of our churches–has contributed to the the diminishing of the Sense of the Sacred. What has been stated in this thread–is in line with the Church. Of course—the concern the Church has in this matter—may be to “Traditional” for you.

vatican.va/roman_curia/synod/documents/rc_synod_doc_20050707_instrlabor-xi-assembly_en.html

The Sense of the Sacred in the Eucharist

1. …
   Nevertheless, responses coming from various countries note some deficiencies and shadows in the celebration of the Eucharist on the part of both the clergy and the faithful, which seem to have their origin in a weakened sense of the sacred in the Sacrament. Safeguarding the Sacrament’s sacred character basically depends on being aware that the Eucharist is a mystery and gift, whose remembrance requires signs and words corresponding to its nature as a sacrament.

Certain actions which challenge a sense of the sacred, often mentioned in the Lineamenta responses, can be of assistance in treating the subject, for example, a neglect by the celebrant and the ministers to use proper liturgical vestments and the participants’ lack of befitting dress for Mass; the use of profane music in Church; the tacit consent to eliminate certain liturgical gestures thought to be too traditional, such as genuflexion before the Blessed Sacrament; an inadequate catechesis for Communion in the hand and its improper distribution; a lack of reverence before, during and after the celebration of Holy Mass, not only by the laity but also the celebrant; the scant architectural and artistic quality of sacred buildings and sacred vessels; and instances of syncretism in integrating elements from other religions in the inculturation of liturgical forms.

All these negative realities, occurring more often in the Latin Liturgy than the Liturgies of the Eastern Churches, should not lead to great alarm, since they seem to be limited. Nevertheless, they ought to spur serious reflection on how to eliminate them and to ensure that the Eucharistic liturgies are places of praise, prayer, communion, listening, silence and adoration, out of deep reverence for the mystery of God, who is revealed in Christ under the elements of bread and wine, and out of the utter joy of feeling oneself a member of a community of the faithful reconciled with God the Father through the grace of the Holy Spirit. The Eucharist is the most sacred and highest form of prayer. It is the Great Prayer.

 

[netmilsmom]

My comments stand. And, mommy, you are not correct that I am looking to be offended. Does a fish look to be caught? Nope, just swims along doing his fish things.

To begin with, I am not your mommy and never have been. The name is Netmil(name removed by moderator). As I stated before, either use the “quote” feature or cut and paste my full name. Thanks in advance.

As for the fish analogy, you are a whole lot more intelligent than a fish. I’m sure that you understand that there has been an ecumenical agenda in certain areas of The Church which is evident in the parish that Maria was in. Her son saw it. The Catholic symbolism has been taken out of many parishes in my area and apparently this one too. Many Holy Masses in my area are very close to the Lutheran church up the street. And no I am not exagerating. The people at my old “Catholic Community” felt that their Sunday obligation was taken care of at either the parish or Trinity Lutheran and no one corrected them. If you want to get indignant about something, that would be the thing.

Many of the so-called Traditionalists, those who claim obedience–absolute and utmost–obey noone but themselves. There is a huge disparity in their statements of belief and their actions. On very many levels.

I think you should expound on this broad brush generalization.

I do not like much of what I read on this Traditionalist Forum, ma. And it has nothing to with the TLM, Traditional Catholic Piety or Reverence. Because I have found little that has to deal with the TLM in any substantial way, no Traditional Catholic Piety or Reverence.

So why come here?

 

[historyb]

Hi,

I went to visit my mom this weekend and we attended her new parish, Catholic, for the first time. I had just had a converstation with my 14 year old about not recieveing communion in a Protestant Church.

Well apparently, although our church has a NO mass, we don’t “look” like many NO parishes who have redecorated, as well as we don’t have the same kind of singing, because my son whispered and asked “I shouldn’t have communion, right?” When I inquired why not, he said “well you said I shouldn’t have communion in a Protestant Church”

I laughingly told this was a Catholic Church. He then asked if it was an old church. I said no, why do you ask? He said, “Well, it is just so boring. Hardly any pictures or statues.”

I guess that is what happens when you have a mostly retired parish, things “look and sound” more like a more Traditional Church. I think next time we go visit my mom we will have to attend a TLM for my son to experience and see which our church seems more like to him

Anyway, I thought you all here might enjoy hearing that my son thought a modern church with a NO mass was mistaken for a Protestant service by my son

God Bless,
Maria

When I was received into the Church one thing that struck me was my Dad told me there was no difference now it was just like his Assembly of God Service and when me and my wife were confirmed a lot of people said the same thing that were Protestant.

I think it is sad that we have lost that what made us a peculiar people and now we are just status quo.

 

[MariaG]

Interesting how you think I was derailing the thread.

To be clear, I am patently unhappy and dissatisfied with the irregularities in the Novos Ordo Mass. It is painful to try to pray in the midst of all the socializing going on. It is difficult to listen to the Gospel being proclaimed amidst the chattering. Reverence for the Real Presence of Christ in the Tabernacle, at the Altar is difficult to find in the majority of Parishes I have attended. It is quite distressing.

However, I refuse to take shots at Holy Mother Church by taking shots at her Liturgies. It is shameful to compare a protestant service with the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, whether that Order be pre or post 1962.

Like it or not, I am one of you who longs for the return of Traditional Catholic Piety and Respect for Our Lord, both within and outside of the Church. I am not willing, though, to drag the Church through the gutter. Liberals, modernists and secularists can accomplish that without anyone else’s help.

It is my firm belief that it is the majority of Traditionalists that keep others from becoming Traditionalists.

Again, we are of one mind it seems on some things but not on this. I hold to the gravity of re-scourging Christ at the post by comparing His Holy Sacrifice of the Mass to a protestant service.

I am sorry–I truly am. But I think that way. Noone must
think as I do. But unless one of the mods silences me, I will continue to make this specific protestation (and I hope that does not make me protestatant, )

Well it looks like I have to clarify so you will not continue to derail my thread.

I never related ANY irregularities with the NO mass.

There was no socializing or chattering, nor did I relate any. Important questions from one’s children can hardly be called socializing or chattering.

I did not relate even one instance of irreverance for the Real Presence of Christ.

My son’s questions and comment were based solely on the structure, decorations (or lack of them) and all the singing, done not to an organ as done at our church but with a piano and drum set as is very common at the Protestant Churches we attended.

No “shots” at the liturgy were even hinted at.

No one compared the “rescourging of Christ” except you. And that is an inaccurate usage of words since we do not resacrifice or rescourge anyone. But I will assume you “misspoke” and forgot to say “to make present” or some other such words.

The only reason communion was brought up was my son was inquiring if he should receive since his impressions based on architecture and music mostly, were that this church seemed to be Protestant to him.

 

[MariaG]

MariaG didn’t take any potshots at the Church and you are looking to be offended. She told a story about her son, who HAS been to a Protestant church and saw this parish’s style to be along the same line.

The pity of it is, we are discounted when we say the same, even if an ex-Protestant like my hubby says it. It gets really old when I compare the local “Catholic Community” with the local Methodist church because the style of worship is the same. It’s not an attack on the HMC nor the mass itself but the style. And then I get ticked at with a big dose of less than Catholic.

Maria, that was a great story. Your son said it like it was!!!

Thanks! Again, you come to my defense:tiphat:

For me, the very positive note in all this is my son was actually listening to me! Sometimes I wonder if when I get into talks with my children, if they just start hearing “blah, blah, blah”

Good to know that they actually listen to the important stuff even if they sometimes fail to hear me ask them to empty the dishwasher until the second go round

 

[MariaG]

When we went to a funeral at a nondenominational funeral chapel, my 4year old whispered, “Mommy, where is the Jesus thing?”

Then I realized she missed seeing the cross on the altar. I hadn’t ever thought of it as the “Jesus thing.”

Out of the mouths of babes…

That is so precious!

I love it when children that age talk about their faith.

That is great!

Anyone else with funny/interesting/intuitive observations from their kids, no matter what the age?

 

[MariaG]

IYet I find as Catholics we can still find humor even in the bleakest of moments or saddest of events. In fact, I think that is one of the better qualities of being Catholic. It is because we know that there is something greater than ourselves, that we can find the absurdities of own doing humorous. I think that is all that is being done here.

While I don’t think that the Protestant looking architecture or singing in a church are the bleakest of moments currently or historically in our Church I do believe that finding humor in it is important.

Can we change this tide of trying to “look and sound” more Protestant? You BET! But this story will be wonderful to use next time a “committee” talks about remodeling or redecorating. In a time of relativism, we should be shouting out our Catholic idenity, not trying to “fit in or be more acceptable” to non-Catholic Christians.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

I sympathize with your son. I find holy reminders inspiring and inviting. I dislike the bare-modern parishes, and those left over octagonal 1960’s kumbaya parishes. Empty in more than one way, imho. But I can deal if I can find the rare parish that doesn’t have pagan activities in their church activities. By the way, I hear traditional looking churches (with all their wonderful holy reminders, perpetual adorations, and even saint shines) are experiencing a boom in attendance. I think that’s wonderful. So many parishes seem to be incorporating other religions/practices into their activities (protestant, pagan, buddhist, etc). Hard to find a Catholic-Catholic church anymore. Wow, I sound like I’m 80, not 27. Ah well. Your son said it best though. And I think that’s the feeling of many young Catholics today.

Wow, that is awful. I agree with you though. I would much rather have a bare modern looking parish than those kinds of activities. Thankfully, our current priest is very picky and looks at all those who request to use our hall for activities. He has made a few enemies in the community when he has turned down ones that he did not feel were “appropriate” to our Catholic mission and message.

Well, soon more will “rediscover” the beauty and appropriateness of worshipping God in a place that shouts out Glory to Him. I am sure of it.

 

[MariaG]

Actually your daughter hit the nail right on the head. Without a Crucifix at the Altar, or above it, the Sacrifice of the Mass loses some of its meaning and impact. Yes, another problem with the Novos Ordo.

This has nothing to do with the “Novus Ordo” - it has to do with disobedient liturgy committees and priests who don’t guide them properly - the current Instruction of the Roman Missal requires that a Crucifix be on or near the Altar at least during Mass.

Someone may say that this (liturgy committees running amok) is “the spirit of Vatican II” but I suspect that a much different spirit is at work, in this case.

You are correct. While it does seem that the NO has seemingly invited this kind of disobedience, we can’t blame a perfectly legitimate and approved form of Mass for the disobedient actions of those who use it.

Just for the record, there was a HUGE crucifix on the Altar at this Church:thumbsup:

 

[MariaG]

And it’s such an easy mistake to make!

I wonder how many people would get muddled between the 1941 TL High Mass on youtube, and a Protestant ‘liturgy’…

I know I have in the past in real life. I remember one time we were visiting and found the closest Catholic Church to go to online. We got there, found what we thought was the Church. We walked in and were not quite “sure”. We finally realized it was a Lutheran Church (Missouri Synod?) when the women minister stood up to open the service. The Catholic Church was right behind the Lutheran Church. Apparently, many made the same mistake from the driving directions posted online

At least that is one way to “know” if we are in the right church, and thankfully, will not change.

 

[MariaG]

When I was received into the Church one thing that struck me was my Dad told me there was no difference now it was just like his Assembly of God Service and when me and my wife were confirmed a lot of people said the same thing that were Protestant.

I think it is sad that we have lost that what made us a peculiar people and now we are just status quo.

But I think more and more are “rediscovering” the beauty and rightness of beautiful Churches that shout out to the heavens God’s glory and majesty.

It will turn around. I pray for it. If we *all *prayed for it daily think how soon it could happen

 

[jmcrae]

And it’s such an easy mistake to make!

I wonder how many people would get muddled between the 1941 TL High Mass on youtube, and a Protestant ‘liturgy’…

It would depend upon the time of year, and on the denomination of Protestantism. In my former denomination, we used to do sung Latin “High Masses” at Easter time.

And I have attended High Anglican Masses that could easily pass for traditional Catholic Masses - they even had altar railings, and two Ambos; one for the Epistle and one for the Gospel. If not for the fact that the priest was a woman, one could easily think it was a Catholic church.

 

[netmilsmom]

Thanks! Again, you come to my defense:tiphat:

Well I got a kick out of it!

For me, the very positive note in all this is my son was actually listening to me! Sometimes I wonder if when I get into talks with my children, if they just start hearing “blah, blah, blah”

Good to know that they actually listen to the important stuff even if they sometimes fail to hear me ask them to empty the dishwasher until the second go round

WOW! I thought this was only at my house!
Somehow I knew I was not alone.
Although they are still at the age where they get a kick out doing things as long as I’m working along with them!

 

[Contarini]

No, He most certainly did not nor will He ever. And yet Satan still tries. Nothing pains me more as former Protestant than going to Mass or a Church that reminds me of Protestant worship.

So you define Catholicism negatively? It is whatever doesn’t look Protestant? That seems a pretty thin sort of religion to me.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

I know I have in the past in real life. I remember one time we were visiting and found the closest Catholic Church to go to online. We got there, found what we thought was the Church. We walked in and were not quite “sure”. We finally realized it was a Lutheran Church (Missouri Synod?) when the women minister stood up to open the service.

The LCMS does not ordain women. She was presumably a layperson leading a portion of the service–which as far as I can see is not fundamentally impossible in Catholicism, and indeed sometimes happens.

Edwin

 

[Windmill]

it is sad that the child saw more protestantism than catholicism in the NO Mass they went to. I think, however, that we can assume the 14 year old doesn’t have a liturgical agenda or lefebrvist sympathies. I’m sure his remarks were completely innocent and unpretentious.

someone else said, “out of the mouths of babes…”, and I think that is correct. With all the efforts some parishes are putting forth to “reach the youth” with rock music and all sorts of fluffiness, it is interesting that teens find the stuff boring. I’d recommend to those parishes that they catechize their youth and try to do things a little more traditional. See what happens.

Just my opinion, and I think maurin and all the rest of you are in pursuit of the same goal: the honor and glory of God in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass

 

[netmilsmom]

So you define Catholicism negatively? It is whatever doesn’t look Protestant? That seems a pretty thin sort of religion to me.

Edwin

This poster says “reminds him of Protestant worship” not looks like Protestant worship.

I personally don’t define Catholicism as negative but I do define parishes that strive to have a feeling more like a Protestant church while holding a distain for distinctly Catholic practices to be negative.

Don’t you think Catholics should be Catholic?

 

[Karin]

This poster says “reminds him of Protestant worship” not looks like Protestant worship.

I personally don’t define Catholicism as negative but I do define parishes that strive to have a feeling more like a Protestant church while holding a distain for distinctly Catholic practices to be negative.

Don’t you think Catholics should be Catholic?

I think that if I walk into Church I should know that it is a Catholic Church!
I should not have to hunt for the tabernacle…I should see a Crucifix over the Altar…I should see a Communion Rail, Baptismal font…I should see the Saints and Mary in all of their Glory and stained glass windows the list goes on and on (you get the idea I am sure).
If I walk into a Church and have to wonder if it is a Catholic Church that is not a good thing!

Once again these are just my humble opinions!

 

[Contarini]

This poster says “reminds him of Protestant worship” not looks like Protestant worship.

I personally don’t define Catholicism as negative but I do define parishes that strive to have a feeling more like a Protestant church while holding a distain for distinctly Catholic practices to be negative.

Don’t you think Catholics should be Catholic?

What is “Catholic”?

If “Catholic” means a distinctive style of being Christian, then it is not really “Catholic” in the sense of the Nicene Creed. If Catholicism is really the Universal Church, then nothing good or beautiful can be alien to it. That means that in order to prove that something is “not Catholic” you have to show that there is something specifically wrong with it–you can’t simply appeal to some stylistic or cultural sense of what is “Catholic.”

For the record, I completely agree with you in practice–much of what this thread is talking about is a new iconoclasm that has deliberately jettisoned important parts of the heritage of Latin Catholics. That’s a shame and a disgrace.

What I am concerned about is the attitude of some converts that they want nothing that reminds them of their former churches–they want to assimilate to the religious culture of traditional Latin Catholicism as much as possible. In that case, they have simply switched traditions rather than entering into the fullness of the Faith as they claim to have done.

This is probably a hijacking of MariaG’s entirely legitimate thread. My apologies, Maria, for chasing this particular bee in my bonnet!

Edwin

 

[netmilsmom]

What is “Catholic”?

If “Catholic” means a distinctive style of being Christian, then it is not really “Catholic” in the sense of the Nicene Creed. If Catholicism is really the Universal Church, then nothing good or beautiful can be alien to it. That means that in order to prove that something is “not Catholic” you have to show that there is something specifically wrong with it–you can’t simply appeal to some stylistic or cultural sense of what is “Catholic.”

I would have to say that this was my mistake.
Latin Catholic should be Latin Catholic.

In some places, including my area, there is a huge blend of Latin Catholic and Protestant flavors. A Latin Catholic should not be looking to other demominations for the traditions that we use. We should be looking to our own history and not others

Having a ex-Presbyterian husband, I know that what brought him to the Church was not the handholding (that he had experienced in his brother’s evangelical church), banners (of his home church) nor the speaking in tongues (that he saw at his sister’s church) it was the traditions and practices of our very Historic, Latin Catholic church. The same traditions that I practice, my mother practiced and my Grandmother practiced, only in Latin.

I think that this is what converts want. They want the parish to remain Historically Latin Catholic. If it has the feel of the church they left then why leave?

As my SIL once told me, “Yes, you have Jesus in your church, but we have the Holy Spirit. They are One God, aren’t they?”