Gallup Poll: U.S. Catholic Hispanic population becoming less religious and shrinking

[fnr]

But what you are describing can be found at any church. I’m not saying don’t do what you are saying but let’s add in (alot more) talk that is decidedly Catholic.

I disagree. Many Protestant denominations frequently have very little emphasis on worship per se. They tend to center and focus around preaching as the focus, and for them the rest of the liturgy (if you can call it that) consists of 2-3 hymns. In my experience, there’s very little time for quiet internal peace. Of course, the Catholic Church went astray prior to Vatican 2 by allowing the liturgy to become a bunch of individual adoration parallel to a liturgy that was, to most, incomprehensible. Since Vatican 2, there’s been greater emphasis on the personal relationship with Christ through the common vernacular liturgy.

The danger of secularism, or of turning to Protestantism, is that people don’t cultivate the interior life. Without the interior love of Christ, moral teaching means nothing to them. As the Pope wrote in his “The Spirit of the Liturgy,”
“…law and ethics do not hold together when they are not anchored in the liturgical center and inspired by it.”

And talking about sin worked for many hundreds of years. People actuallly listened to the Church! Talking about sin can be done in love and charity (not in a Bible thumping sort of way). I suspect that talk about the hard truths/sin in life is why the Evangelical church is bringing them in by the droves. We could learn a lot from them.

Again, I’ll disagree. Talking about sin doesn’t seem to have been the key factor in getting people to live in an upright way. A lot of changes are due to economic situations (women able to make an independent living) and structural factors (the availability of cheap contraceptives post-WW2), that have made sexuality outside marriage an easy thing to do. Back before the 1960s, people who had sex outside of marriage had a high risk of unplanned pregnancy. The risk was even higher before 1920s, before the industrial production of condoms.

What I can say from personal experience in my late teenage years is that what drives people to the Protestant churches, particularly the evangelical ones, is the emphasis on “giving it up to God,” in the “born again” experience of coming to terms with our limited, fallen natures and asking Jesus to step in and help. To ask for grace, and acknowledge that someone can’t do it all alone. That’s an extremely powerful spiritual practice, one that many Catholics don’t ever go through. We talk about original sin, but don’t talk about what that means on a personal, psychological level. The Protestant evangelists are very good at getting people to leave the Catholic Church because many Catholics themselves don’t feel that their liturgical experience is connecting them to Christ.

 

[fnr]

Read the post. The comment regarding Democrats was an aside, tongue in cheek although since Democrats are militantly pro abortion, pro gay marriage, anti family, anti self sufficiency I suggest they have a far larger role in the degradation of society. As Hispanics become less family, marriage, and church influenced, they start exhibiting the self destructive and thus societally destructive behaviors.

OK, I’m a Democrat. I’m as concerned about it as you are. Don’t you dare tell me that I love the Lord any less than you do.

As my other posts say, the reason we’re losing to Protestantism isn’t politics, it’s evangelical. It’s OUR fault.

This isn’t a new concept. Ancient Greek philosophers noted that one learns loyalty and devotion and responsibility from the family and thus can participate productively in society with that foundation. Destroying the family puts society at risk because the participants never learned basic virtue. Trying to civilize unruly teens and twenty somethings isn’t for the faint of heart. Ask how life is in east L.A.

And the reason the Catholic Church promotes a “family wage” is so the wife doesn’t feel economically compelled to work out of the home.

The self destructive behavior obviously predates the Democrats but they are just the latest standard bearers who champion such activity as “freedom” and “tolerance.”

Well, I have worked in some of Detroit’s worst neighborhoods quite a bit, and the destruction of “the family” there is very well established. The Mexican (and Arab) neighborhoods are probably the best, in terms of family cohesion. Want to spread virtue? Come on down and help. Seriously. Put up or shut up.

*“Even voting for the right is doing nothing for it. It is only expressing to men feebly your desire that it should prevail. A wise man will not leave the right to the mercy of chance, nor wish it to prevail through the power of the majority. There is but little virtue in the action of masses of men.” *
-Henry David Thoreau

 

[Lucky7]

I disagree. Many Protestant denominations frequently have very little emphasis on worship per se. They tend to center and focus around preaching as the focus, and for them the rest of the liturgy (if you can call it that) consists of 2-3 hymns. In my experience, there’s very little time for quiet internal peace. Of course, the Catholic Church went astray prior to Vatican 2 by allowing the liturgy to become a bunch of individual adoration parallel to a liturgy that was, to most, incomprehensible. Since Vatican 2, there’s been greater emphasis on the personal relationship with Christ through the common vernacular liturgy.

The danger of secularism, or of turning to Protestantism, is that people don’t cultivate the interior life. Without the interior love of Christ, moral teaching means nothing to them. As the Pope wrote in his “The Spirit of the Liturgy,”
“…law and ethics do not hold together when they are not anchored in the liturgical center and inspired by it.”

Again, I’ll disagree. Talking about sin doesn’t seem to have been the key factor in getting people to live in an upright way. A lot of changes are due to economic situations (women able to make an independent living) and structural factors (the availability of cheap contraceptives post-WW2), that have made sexuality outside marriage an easy thing to do. Back before the 1960s, people who had sex outside of marriage had a high risk of unplanned pregnancy. The risk was even higher before 1920s, before the industrial production of condoms.

What I can say from personal experience in my late teenage years is that what drives people to the Protestant churches, particularly the evangelical ones, is the emphasis on “giving it up to God,” in the “born again” experience of coming to terms with our limited, fallen natures and asking Jesus to step in and help. To ask for grace, and acknowledge that someone can’t do it all alone. That’s an extremely powerful spiritual practice, one that many Catholics don’t ever go through. We talk about original sin, but don’t talk about what that means on a personal, psychological level. The Protestant evangelists are very good at getting people to leave the Catholic Church because many Catholics themselves don’t feel that their liturgical experience is connecting them to Christ.

I guess you and I are going to have to agree to disagree because I will not let go of the fact that our parishes are not talking enough about Catholic doctrine and the reasons for such.

 

[chero23]

Read the post. The comment regarding Democrats was an aside, tongue in cheek although since Democrats are militantly pro abortion, pro gay marriage, anti family, anti self sufficiency I suggest they have a far larger role in the degradation of society. As Hispanics become less family, marriage, and church influenced, they start exhibiting the self destructive and thus societally destructive behaviors.

This isn’t a new concept. Ancient Greek philosophers noted that one learns loyalty and devotion and responsibility from the family and thus can participate productively in society with that foundation. Destroying the family puts society at risk because the participants never learned basic virtue. Trying to civilize unruly teens and twenty somethings isn’t for the faint of heart. Ask how life is in east L.A.

The self destructive behavior obviously predates the Democrats but they are just the latest standard bearers who champion such activity as “freedom” and “tolerance.”

Lisa

I think you and me have had arguments in other threads before. But, I want you to think Lisa, put yourself in your shoes, if your family were here without papers, but you do have them, your family is close knit, and The Party who stands agaisnt abortion and gay unions is telling you we will send all undocumented back to their countries. And the other party that supports gay unions and abortion says, well help those without papers. I mean common sense will tell you help my family.

Im not saying that what democrats do is right, but what republicans do and say is just as hypocritical as democrats. So in all fairness those of us that vote were hypocrites for voting for these hypocrites.

But this is the thing, us individuals deserve most of the blame. Bc we elect those individuals, bc we allow ppl who do not know the true meaning of the word of God and lead us away from the Church it is us who are abandoning God.

 

[ProVobis]

If I were Hispanic would I want to be with people who look at me and use language like “illegals,” “anchor babies,” “moochers,” “thieves” and “parasites”…

Or would I rather be with people who value my life, recognize my humanity and will treat me with respect.

Not a hard choice.

You nailed it.

 

[LisaA]

I think you and me have had arguments in other threads before. But, I want you to think Lisa, put yourself in your shoes, if your family were here without papers, but you do have them, your family is close knit, and The Party who stands agaisnt abortion and gay unions is telling you we will send all undocumented back to their countries. And the other party that supports gay unions and abortion says, well help those without papers. I mean common sense will tell you help my family.

Im not saying that what democrats do is right, but what republicans do and say is just as hypocritical as democrats. So in all fairness those of us that vote were hypocrites for voting for these hypocrites.

But this is the thing, us individuals deserve most of the blame. Bc we elect those individuals, bc we allow ppl who do not know the true meaning of the word of God and lead us away from the Church it is us who are abandoning God.

1. if you are here illegally you aren’t voting for either party unless you want to add voter fraud to your other crimes
2. has ANYONE said “send them all back?” THis is a total canard used to lie and demean those who believe in border security and following the law
3. tell me what “Republicans” say? Send them all back? Shoot them? George Bush offered a VERY compassionate plan to move current illegals toward permanent status. He was supported very strongly by John McCain. Who stopped him? DEMOCRATS
4. Mark Rubio, Newt Gingrich, and other Republicans have all provided written plans to work toward a viable solution.

Don’t tell me Repbulicans say “send them all back” You’ve been reading too many bumper stickers.

What baloney.

Lisa

 

[LisaA]

OK, I’m a Democrat. I’m as concerned about it as you are. Don’t you dare tell me that I love the Lord any less than you do.

As my other posts say, the reason we’re losing to Protestantism isn’t politics, it’s evangelical. It’s OUR fault.

And the reason the Catholic Church promotes a “family wage” is so the wife doesn’t feel economically compelled to work out of the home.

Well, I have worked in some of Detroit’s worst neighborhoods quite a bit, and the destruction of “the family” there is very well established. The Mexican (and Arab) neighborhoods are probably the best, in terms of family cohesion. Want to spread virtue? Come on down and help. Seriously. Put up or shut up.

*“Even voting for the right is doing nothing for it. It is only expressing to men feebly your desire that it should prevail. A wise man will not leave the right to the mercy of chance, nor wish it to prevail through the power of the majority. There is but little virtue in the action of masses of men.” *
-Henry David Thoreau

Perhaps reading with comprehension would help you understand the post. I don’t recall claiming that you don’t love the Lord because you are a Democrat. However faithful and compassionate you might be, the reality is that the Democrat platform is an extreme position with respect to life issues and homosexual marriage. You might believe you can vote for Obama and not be supporting pro abortion policies. You would be wrong.

I agree that Catholics are losing ground to Protestants because of religion, not politics. That is exactly what I said. But we cannot ignore politics either and when one party offers party favors and the other offers earned success, human nature is such that many would gravitate toward the easy path. Just as in our faith, we do ask more than “accept Jesus Christ as your personal Savior…once and done” and that too is the harder path.

As to your incredibly rude remark (must pass along to the mods!) “Put up or shut up” that denotes total ignorance of any charitable activity in which I am engaged. You might be surprised if you actually knew me since you have obviously come to an erroneous conclusion.

Lisa

 

[chero23]

1. if you are here illegally you aren’t voting for either party unless you want to add voter fraud to your other crimes
2. has ANYONE said “send them all back?” THis is a total canard used to lie and demean those who believe in border security and following the law
3. tell me what “Republicans” say? Send them all back? Shoot them? George Bush offered a VERY compassionate plan to move current illegals toward permanent status. He was supported very strongly by John McCain. Who stopped him? DEMOCRATS
4. Mark Rubio, Newt Gingrich, and other Republicans have all provided written plans to work toward a viable solution.

Don’t tell me Repbulicans say “send them all back” You’ve been reading too many bumper stickers.

What baloney.

Lisa

Lisa that year Bush for that reform it was 2005 or 2006 if Im not mistaken, the White House plus both chambers of Congress, I repeat both Chambers were Republican, and yet nothing could be passed. It was not the Democrats who stopped it, it was the Republican. Those are facts ma’am, you can not argue against facts.

 

[LisaA]

Lisa that year Bush for that reform it was 2005 or 2006 if Im not mistaken, the White House plus both chambers of Congress, I repeat both Chambers were Republican, and yet nothing could be passed. It was not the Democrats who stopped it, it was the Republican. Those are facts ma’am, you can not argue against facts.

You might understand that the President does not enact Legislation. I do not believe President Bush’s proposal was even presented in draft form much less voted on. But it was the Democrats who were most shrill as they were protecting unions. It may well have been that there was not enough support from both parties to pass such a bill. However that it was PROPOSED by President Bush and SUPPORTED by John McCain (to his detriment) totally ruins your case that “Republicans” want all illegals deported.

I asked if you could provide some evidence of your premise. You have not. I provided evidence you were not correct.

Your move.

Lisa

 

[chero23]

You might understand that the President does not enact Legislation. I do not believe President Bush’s proposal was even presented in draft form much less voted on. But it was the Democrats who were most shrill as they were protecting unions. It may well have been that there was not enough support from both parties to pass such a bill. However that it was PROPOSED by President Bush and SUPPORTED by John McCain (to his detriment) totally ruins your case that “Republicans” want all illegals deported.

I asked if you could provide some evidence of your premise. You have not. I provided evidence you were not correct.

Your move.

Lisa

Ok Lisa, you said that Democrats hauled, but say John McCain sponsored it. I just did some investigation to answer your question. It was sponsored by John McCain from Arizona, an Ted Kennedy from Mass. oh yes, he’s a Democrat. You will see in the article that Sen. Cornyn of Texas, a republican alongside his republican colleague from John McCain’s home state of Arizona, Sen. John Kyl, brought forward a bill, “calls for deporting millions of people residing in the country illegally in order for them to apply for guest worker status”
sfgate.com/news/article/Bush-revives-immigration-reform-push-Switching-2592683.php

You might be well yea that’s a not a bad bill, but you gotta think, these individuals left their country, saved up around $5000- to $10,000 to come here, and ppl like Cornyn and Kyl want them to return, Its like I told you Lisa, common sense is going to be, screw those politicians I won’t vote for them.

 

[LisaA]

Ok Lisa, you said that Democrats hauled, but say John McCain sponsored it. I just did some investigation to answer your question. It was sponsored by John McCain from Arizona, an Ted Kennedy from Mass. oh yes, he’s a Democrat. You will see in the article that Sen. Cornyn of Texas, a republican alongside his republican colleague from John McCain’s home state of Arizona, Sen. John Kyl, brought forward a bill, “calls for deporting millions of people residing in the country illegally in order for them to apply for guest worker status”
sfgate.com/news/article/Bush-revives-immigration-reform-push-Switching-2592683.php

You might be well yea that’s a not a bad bill, but you gotta think, these individuals left their country, saved up around $5000- to $10,000 to come here, and ppl like Cornyn and Kyl want them to return, Its like I told you Lisa, common sense is going to be, screw those politicians I won’t vote for them.

You continue to overstate the case, further the “deportation” you claim does not apply to all of the illegals, nor is it permanent. It’s rather moot because everyone knew the idea of even a temporary return would be impossible. However it was in the context of a guest worker program that would have made the workers LEGAL and thus less likely to be used and defrauded by unscrupulous employers who would hold their status over them.

As to what they spent to come here illegally, I don’t know why that is part of the equation. If I spend a lot of money to engage in criminal behavior, it doesn’t remove the criminal status.

BTW your own argument can be used against you in that the Democrats had the House, Congress and the Presidency for the first two years of Obama’s presidency. And what did they do regarding Hispanics? Nada, nothing, zilch.

The reality is that there are competing interests and little political courage on either side. The unions on the side of the Democrats do not want the competition of having a lot of less expensive workers available. On the Republican side, the lack of border security and the utilization of taxpayer funded social services make immigration reform difficult to sell.

As to your language, please don’t use vulgarities. It doesn’t help your argument and is against Forum rules.

Lisa

 

[chero23]

Ok Lisa, you said that Democrats hauled, but say John McCain sponsored it. I just did some investigation to answer your question. It was sponsored by John McCain from Arizona, an Ted Kennedy from Mass. oh yes, he’s a Democrat. You will see in the article that Sen. Cornyn of Texas, a republican alongside his republican colleague from John McCain’s home state of Arizona, Sen. John Kyl, brought forward a bill, “calls for deporting millions of people residing in the country illegally in order for them to apply for guest worker status”
sfgate.com/news/article/Bush-revives-immigration-reform-push-Switching-2592683.php

You might be well yea that’s a not a bad bill, but you gotta think, these individuals left their country, saved up around $5000- to $10,000 to come here, and ppl like Cornyn and Kyl want them to return, Its like I told you Lisa, common sense is going to be, screw those politicians I won’t vote for them.

In no way shape or form have I said Obama is a man with no sin here nor the Democrat party. Yes your right, Democrats had the chambers under control and could not get anything done. I watch spanish tv, and i saw the debate that Bush and Romney had, and trust me Obama was grilled and grilled hard by the ppl in the audience and the reporters. both parties know that hispanics are going to hit politicians were it hurts them the most and that is at voting booth.

If nothing gets done, I believe hispanics will stop voting, their going to see, that both parties just talk and talk and promise but no actions.

 

[LisaA]

In no way shape or form have I said Obama is a man with no sin here nor the Democrat party. Yes your right, Democrats had the chambers under control and could not get anything done. I watch spanish tv, and i saw the debate that Bush and Romney had, and trust me Obama was grilled and grilled hard by the ppl in the audience and the reporters. both parties know that hispanics are going to hit politicians were it hurts them the most and that is at voting booth.

If nothing gets done, I believe hispanics will stop voting, their going to see, that both parties just talk and talk and promise but no actions.

Actually the Democrats didn’t even TRY to do anything about immigration reform when they had the power which should have given Hispanics a clue about their priorities. It was funny to read that article which claimed “immigration reform is right on the horizon” noting that nothing has happened since 1986! Well it’s been almost another ten years and nothing has been done…through both Republican and Democrat control and majorities.
I believe it’s the competing interests that paralyze the Congress. No one wants to offend a particular constituant group.

The Univision debate was considered to be the most candid and most probing, particularly of Obama. How ironic that Hispanics were more concerned about government gun running although given that how many thousand Mexican citizens have been killed due to this gun violence, it’s not a surprise.

I guess the real irony is the support for Obama and the Democrats given they did little or nothing when they had power, deportations and raids have INCREASED since Obama took over and the various DOJ schemes for gun running has been disasterous for controlling the drug trade and violence on and south of the border.

The man must be VERY convincing since the facts don’t seem to be in play.

Lisa

 

[Rache]

Would this be one explanation of why so many are voting for liberal Democrats, who have shown themselves to be no friend of religion?

Exactly. And just how challenging is it, to be a liberal … :sad_yes:

 

[ProVobis]

If nothing gets done, I believe hispanics will stop voting, their going to see, that both parties just talk and talk and promise but no actions.

Actually they can’t vote until they become citizens. Might explain why the Republicans are so determined to keep them “illegal.”

 

[chero23]

Actually they can’t vote until they become citizens. Might explain why the Republicans are so determined to keep them “illegal.”

When I said hispanics, i meant those of us that can vote

 

[Tigg]

Lisa that year Bush for that reform it was 2005 or 2006 if Im not mistaken, the White House plus both chambers of Congress, I repeat both Chambers were Republican, and yet nothing could be passed. It was not the Democrats who stopped it, it was the Republican. Those are facts ma’am, you can not argue against facts.

It was 2007and I think you might want to do a little more research. My neighbor at the time was quite involved with the process and it was the American public who stopped the legislation, in fact the Senate phone lines were shut down for all the calls of protest against “immigration reform.” Of course, a few years ago, we still had a vestige of a representative government.

 

[RevDon]

You know I think this has nothing to do with politics and a lot to do with the more aggressive evangelizing by Evangelicals. These Hispanic Protestants are NOT Methodists and Presbyterians. They are Evangelicals, Baptists, Foursquare or join other Bible based local churches.

Catholics are NOT very good at spreading the Good Word. As a Convert I can assure you I had not idea one could actually become a Catholic unless you married one! OTOH the large evangelical megachurches are out in the neighborhoods, offering picnics and other family events. They have strong women’s ministries, men’s groups, family support.

To an outsider, particularly someone with a language barrier, the Church can seem somewhat forbidding and intimidating. What if I don’t know the Creed? When to stand, when to kneel? I really WANTED to become Catholic so I went for it, but it’s a lot easier to walk into the Foursquare Church where they have a lot of happy clappy praise music and a great youth group.
Lisa

We can assume that this is not the problem for Hispanic Catholics.
Catholic churches I know have made conscious decisions not to accommodate Hispanics. Some don’t have or don’t want to get the means to pray with them in Spanish. One I know simply said, “We don’t want those people in our church.”

 

[LisaA]

It was 2007and I think you might want to do a little more research. My neighbor at the time was quite involved with the process and it was the American public who stopped the legislation, in fact the Senate phone lines were shut down for all the calls of protest against “immigration reform.” Of course, a few years ago, we still had a vestige of a representative government.

Actually I remember the episode very well. The point was that it was REPUBLICANS who proposed the legislation. President Bush having been a border state President and with his brother married to a woman of Mexican heritage (I think she is an immigrant) there was a predisposition on his part to try to address the problems. Further the biggest champion of the Bush plan was another Republican John McCain.

Oh I remember the uprising among the civilians. Many saw the planned bill as granting amnesty prior to securing the border. I do not remember the details of the bill but that seems to be the basic premise…the Wimpy’s Plan of I’ll gladly buy a hamburger today and pay for it next Tuesday…

The whole point of this offtake from the thread was that the Republicans have been vilified for “wanting to deport everyone” when this is simply not the case.

I will say the Dems do a better job of bloviating. Given Obama did nothing when he had total control, given his increased deportations and employer raids and the gun running schemes by ATF with DOJ ignoring them, you’d think Hispanics might get the message they they are only interested in Hispanic votes, not immigration reform

Lisa

 

[chero23]

It was 2007and I think you might want to do a little more research. My neighbor at the time was quite involved with the process and it was the American public who stopped the legislation, in fact the Senate phone lines were shut down for all the calls of protest against “immigration reform.” Of course, a few years ago, we still had a vestige of a representative government.

It was 2006, I just looked up some facts, bc I remember that students here in Dallas were walking out of their schools and marching towards Dallas City Hall. But like I told Lisa, and another posts up there mentions it, when you have Cornyn and kyl wanting to pass a bill to deport all immigrants, yes your going to have a backlash. Trust me, Right now my aunt is going through smething similar in this sense. her husband a protestant, does not want to her daughter being baptize yet. He states about how the pope resigned bc of the scandals. My point is, ppl like hannity, and Limbaugh Fox news were attacking immigrants. They went after the Hispanic communtiy. My favorite quote of hannity was, “We nned to protect our borders bc of terrorists”. But what the man does not realize that all 20 terrorists came in to the US through Canada not Mexico.

Ill post you several articles to show you that it was 2006. If the ppl called their Congressman it got them motivated. But to the OP’s thred, when you have politicians talking about God and dividing families you begin to say weres your morale at. PPl here constanlly blame Democrats and the Left, well the country is not in good standing right now, and both parties have caused that.

Lisa, trust me Hispanics will apply pressure to Obama. like i said but it was misinterpreted, if nothing gets fixed, trust me those of us that can vote, will not support either party.

web.ebscohost.com/ehost/detail?sid=54bcdfe7-a16f-43cd-8c5f-57f4cc6de0f2%40sessionmgr10&vid=1&hid=28&bdata=JnNpdGU9ZWhvc3QtbGl2ZQ%3d%3d#db=a9h&AN=24669198