Gaudete et Exsultate

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christofirst said:
I’m not ashamed to admit that I am very much drawn to the idea of some form of Universalism or Apokatastasis, however that might be reconciled with Church teaching. If the lesson from Pope Francis on Contemporary Gnosticism leaves the door even slightly more open to some possibility of this, some hope that I can cling to while others tell me how many people must be in hell, then I, for one, am greatly heartened.
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Same here. I hope for an empty hell. That would make all speculation regarding the precise nature of eternal punishment a moot point. However, this is not traditional Catholic doctrine and some would call such hope a heresy.
 
Mark121359 said:
Really??? Francis doesn’t take aim at anyone? Not so according to Fr. James Martin SJ, whom Pope Francis appointed as consultant to the Vatican’s Secretariat for Communications;
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For once we agree. However, rather than seeking to discredit the Pope, perhaps this should be taken as an opportunity to look at his critics from a new perspective.
 
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KMG said:
Like you?

Let me be blunter. Believing souls are immortal isn’t gnosticism. It’s basic Catholic dogma.
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That is with regard to the intermediate stage between the Resurrection of Christ and the general Resurrection of the Dead at the end of time.
 
KMG said:
And you keep trying to spread your pet theories…which are un-Catholic…on multiple threads. I will continue to affirm basic Catholic dogma: souls are immortal.
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Stop trying to change the topic. This discussion is about the Pope’s exhortation, not about me or eschatology.
 
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KMG said:
Anyone who can read can go back and see what you did on this thread. You are obsessed with spreading your pet theory.
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I hope they do, because they will then see that you are wrong.
 
Not off topic, since you labeled people Gnostics who are merely affirming basic Catholic dogma, which I shall continue to do.
 
KMG said:
Not off topic, since you labeled people Gnostics who are merely affirming basic Catholic dogma, which I shall continue to do.
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You can defend Catholic doctrine all you want.

My point was about stepping over the line in declaring a diverse opinion heretical . That is pretty much the definition of denying “that in the Church there legitimately coexist different ways of interpreting many aspects of doctrine”. Even @pnewton said your case is not ironclad and you went too far on that score.

You really should read and reffect upon Chapter 2:
  1. Here I would like to mention two false forms of holiness that can lead us astray: gnosticism and pelagianism. They are two heresies from early Christian times, yet they continue to plague us. In our times too, many Christians, perhaps without realizing it, can be seduced by these deceptive ideas, which reflect an anthropocentric immanentism disguised as Catholic truth.[33] Let us take a look at these two forms of doctrinal or disciplinary security that give rise “to a narcissistic and authoritarian elitism, whereby instead of evangelizing, one analyses and classifies others, and instead of opening the door to grace, one exhausts his or her energies in inspecting and verifying. In neither case is one really concerned about Jesus Christ or others”.[34]
We should all ask ourselves, “Is this me?”
 
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Are you suggesting that whether Jesus dying on the cross can also be nuanced and interpreted differently?
I don’t think Pope Francis had this in mind when he wrote this.
I think there are certain doctrines which everybody do agree on. Especially those which had been infallibly defined.
 
Luke6_37 said:
To think that even after 2,000 years of consideration, the Church knows it all - or that based on your limited human capacity to study that limited body of knowledge, YOU know it all - is beyond arrogant. It is idolotry. The fact is that when it comes to ultimate reality, our human intellect simply cannot grasp it, let alone explain it with certainty.
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The Church doesn’t know it all…yet. But it has the ability to know it all because it will be guided by the Holy Spirit infallibly.
Hence the Church has this great mechanism of councils and also Pope ex cathedra where if there is a dispute about what to believe then we can have a mechanism to define for us.
So unless one has strong theological grounds to challenge current mainstream belief then I think it’s reasonable to believe in the mainstream until the “new” theory gains momentum and gets defined in a council.

So souls are indeed immortal and this is the way we should believe this NOW. I agree perhaps there is a nuance but no major group of Catholics is saying this. So Indeed if Just in case you do have the Truth then I’m sure the Holy Spirit will guide you and others to consider your opinion seriously and then momentum will build in the church so much that the Pope calls for a council to infallibly define your new nuanced view. Which is perfectly fine and it has happened before. But my educated guess is that it won’t happen and I think it Is indeed correct for Catholics to point out until we know more we should stick to believing in what we know rather than what we don’t know. What Pope Francis is against is the arrogance of knowing. Surely he is not asking us to believe in the myriad of pseudo heterodox theories.
 
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Today’s traditional breviary features St Leo the Great, who states “the soul is immortal”. Again, basic Catholic dogma.
 
Amen to that. Do you know what this exhortation is not? A call to perfect doctrine. It is our job to do the work of God, not argue each other into Hell. Everyone will know the answer to this question soon enough as it is. The question of eternity is not how right we were, but how holy we are.
 
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