Gay Catholic asks for help.

[CopticChristian]

Coptic, I understand you wish to offer me correction. In my case, however, I already have been corrected by the Church and accept it. Now it is simply a question of my putting this into practice and correcting myself. I’d appreciate it if you’d be so kind as to let me go about doing things at my own pace.

I fully accept that I lack virtue and I am entirely open about that fact - I do not attempt to lie about it and to hide it, which is all the more reason for me to be offended at your questioning my honesty. I understand what you’re saying and I agree that it would be better if I were speaking from the perspective of somebody who has already reformed his conduct in accordance with Church teaching. However, just because something might be better at some point in the future doesn’t make it bad now.

I myself had no intention of offering correction. I was merely expressing my perspective and attempting to contribute, positively, I hope, to the conversation. I do not believe that I have said anything contrary to Church teaching, and those who read my posts can make of them what they will.

You too have all the means necessary to act in the way that the Church teaches, but you, and every other poster on this forum, fail in doing so in one way or another, and not every poster who has made a valuable contribution to this discussion was virtuous at the time of writing.

None of us are in heaven yet and we are all imperfect to varying degrees. The things we say from our differing perspectives and from our different stages on the journey to perfection should, however, be judged on their own merits, without resorting to ad hominems or to character assassination.

What I took issue with was your implication that what I have to say is somehow worthless because I fail to live a life of virtue. I am not the first person to have had a conversion of heart before a conversion of conduct. It took St Augustine a while too.

Carl,

You realize that Augusine wrote his Confessions, explaining his sinful life, after he abandoned it. He understood…

We believe
We live the Sacramental Life
We follow Chirst and live the moral life becoming Holy as God is Holy
We pray…

go and do likewise…

I imagine that someone with such sincerity, someone that is bold enough to come to a CAF and reveal as you have portions of your life can and will provide a marvelous example of what Augustine has done prior to you and I imagine that there will be some impact as well.

Let us all know if you choose to…

Understand that in Charity, I offered Fraternal Correction, I believe you may have missed that…

 

[mugginsjr]

HeavenHelp, I don’t know if you are still monitoring this. And I can not advise you sir, on anything. But there is something I want to say.

The Church has specific instructions to help you. They are not there to try and change your mind, or get you to feel anything other than what you feel. I think most of the posters here are good intentioned and with every ounce of love in their hearts want to help you in every way. But your issue is complicated, and I want to ask you to speak to your priest. Your priest. Please pray for the strength and courage to talk to him.

And I want to talk about sin. People think sin is some huge monster like creature in our lives, and that’s just not true. Sin can be as simple as finding a dollar on the sidewalk and then not trying to find its proper owner. It doesn’t take much to sin. I sin everday. Probably dozens of times. As a heterosexual male, every time I see an attractive woman her curves and features soon excite me. Some say that’s just mother nature. Others say that’s evil getting a foothold. Either way I want to ravish her and God felt strongly enough about that to put it in the Ten Commandments.

There’s a lot of things like that in life, in my opinion. God puts a candy bar in front of me and then tells me not to touch it… Please! What is that about? I don’t know. But I know what my faith is about. All of life, from birth to death, is a test. If it weren’t then I don’t think God would have put good on the earth, as well as evil. And I don’t think he would have given us the free will to choose between the two. And as an old man I can tell you it passes in the wink of an eye.

At 13 and 14 I was certain that I was getting called by God to enter the priesthood. Trust me when I say it wasn’t just a notion or something that I felt like doing. It was an absolute part of my life. Just as I knew I had to wake up every morning, I was absolutely certain that God wanted me to become a priest. It was as big a part of me as any other part of my life. My own priest at the time called it “my calling,” and explained that’s simply how it works. But I refused Him. Because at 13 and 14, guess what else was happening to my body? There was simply no way in this world, nor even by God, that I was going to become celibate. Do you think refusing God was a sin?

HeavenHelp, I don’t want to belittle your troubles, but it pales in comparison to what I’m headed for on judgement day. I hope to see you in the crowd that day, and that you’ll put in a good word for me. I’ll need it. Now please talk to your priest.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

HeavenHelp, I don’t know if you are still monitoring this. And I can not advise you sir, on anything. But there is something I want to say.

The Church has specific instructions to help you. They are not there to try and change your mind, or get you to feel anything other than what you feel. I think most of the posters here are good intentioned and with every ounce of love in their hearts want to help you in every way. But your issue is complicated, and I want to ask you to speak to your priest. Your priest. Please pray for the strength and courage to talk to him.

And I want to talk about sin. People think sin is some huge monster like creature in our lives, and that’s just not true. **Sin can be as simple as finding a dollar on the sidewalk and then not trying to find its proper owner. ** It doesn’t take much to sin. I sin everday. Probably dozens of times. As a heterosexual male, every time I see an attractive woman her curves and features soon excite me. Some say that’s just mother nature. Others say that’s evil getting a foothold. Either way I want to ravish her and God felt strongly enough about that to put it in the Ten Commandments.

There’s a lot of things like that in life, in my opinion. God puts a candy bar in front of me and then tells me not to touch it… Please! What is that about? I don’t know. But I know what my faith is about. All of life, from birth to death, is a test. If it weren’t then I don’t think God would have put good on the earth, as well as evil. And I don’t think he would have given us the free will to choose between the two. And as an old man I can tell you it passes in the wink of an eye.

At 13 and 14 I was certain that I was getting called by God to enter the priesthood. Trust me when I say it wasn’t just a notion or something that I felt like doing. It was an absolute part of my life. Just as I knew I had to wake up every morning, I was absolutely certain that God wanted me to become a priest. It was as big a part of me as any other part of my life. My own priest at the time called it “my calling,” and explained that’s simply how it works. But I refused Him. Because at 13 and 14, guess what else was happening to my body? There was simply no way in this world, nor even by God, that I was going to become celibate. Do you think refusing God was a sin?

HeavenHelp, I don’t want to belittle your troubles, but it pales in comparison to what I’m headed for on judgement day. I hope to see you in the crowd that day, and that you’ll put in a good word for me. I’ll need it. Now please talk to your priest.

It is probably impossible to find out who that dollar belongs to. If it were in a wallet with some form of identification then yes one should try to contact the owner as in that case it is possible to find the owner, if you fail then turn it in to the police.

 

[mugginsjr]

It is probably impossible to find out who that dollar belongs to. If it were in a wallet with some form of identification then yes one should try to contact the owner as in that case it is possible to find the owner, if you fail then turn it in to the police.

Yes, yes, I can see that. Of course if it were just a dollar - with no owner info - and you’ve asked everyone in sight if they have lost something - then probably best not to bother police with such an insignificant task. At that point Sunday’s basket sounds like the best place for it… Of course if it’s a substantial amount, more than $50 or so, I would probably use some of it to advertise for anyone who may have lost something in the area. I’m sure they’d be happy to get the remainder rather than nothing… Turning it over to the police would make it an instant tax, because they are not going to search for the owner. It will sit for a year or two and get turned over the county treasurer.

But really this is just defining an example of sin used in a post meant for other purposes, HeavenHelp’s dilemna… Is there a correlation somehow?

 

[InSearchofGrace]

I have just seen the responses to the post and I have to say thank you to you all. I have to make some things clear though. My post that was very defeatist and despondent came from an experience that I had with a priest earlier that day. He reacted very badly to me when I asked his advice, it infuriated me and I wrote the post full of emotion. I apologize.

I’m sorry for going into detail with this matter but I want to clear something up; I have not had sex with him because of the Churches teaching on the matter, I wont say that I wouldn’t do that at some point in the future but for the moment I will not do it because I still believe in the Church and as long as I do I wont.

There is one more thing. Please keep me in your prayers that I maintain my faith. This is extremely difficult, both emotionally and spiritually. Lord Jesus have mercy.

Among others here who hear your plea, I will include you in my prayers of nightly rosary. Recently, I started with praying it as incorporated in a Novena to Our Lady Undoer of Knots. I implore our Lady as intercessory to help undo the knots of my life, and may she undo this huge knot in yours as well.

About your unsatisfactory talk with the priest from whom you sought advice, it is difficult to know the dynamics and details of the talk you and he had. He probably should have been more sensitive, but did he hear that your request for advice was coming from a perspective of defeat and capitulation to temptation?

For a sort of spiritual malaise that profoundly affected me after falling into sin which kept me away from the Eucharist for the better part of a year, the despondence and shame I felt were too much that I sought a priest to hear my confession in another parish. I knew better but I chose sin over my Lord, over my faith. The priest saw my anguish and remorse, told me to have confidence that I am forgiven with resolve to make amends. I resolved to avoid with all strength I can muster to give up any future occasion that would present, the occasion to which I opened myself to begin with, testing what I knew as a weakness.

It will make your struggle harder, I think, if you see this friend to whom you are attracted in the near future. It is not a given that you will choose your friend over our Lord. However, my advice is to put distance and avoid this friend for the time being if possible; don’t seek opportunities to bump into him. Put on your armor, HeavenHelp. Going to a party where taking a few drinks facilitate expression of an admitted mutual attraction would not be wise. If he is Catholic as well, trying to live the faith, he will understand. Later, that talk between two people in disinterested friendship can take place, if it has not yet taken place.

Your sister in Christ,

ISoG

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Yes, yes, I can see that. Of course if it were just a dollar - with no owner info - and you’ve asked everyone in sight if they have lost something - then probably best not to bother police with such an insignificant task. At that point Sunday’s basket sounds like the best place for it… Of course if it’s a substantial amount, more than $50 or so, I would probably use some of it to advertise for anyone who may have lost something in the area. I’m sure they’d be happy to get the remainder rather than nothing… Turning it over to the police would make it an instant tax, because they are not going to search for the owner. It will sit for a year or two and get turned over the county treasurer.

But really this is just defining an example of sin used in a post meant for other purposes, HeavenHelp’s dilemna… Is there a correlation somehow?

I read your post (#82), appreciating the wisdom and insight of the rest of it, would not have focused on the example of the dollar, which I figured just lacked explanation. You have to excuse Dakota – he gets pedantic and has compulsion to correct little things.

As for what you disclosed, you may be too hard on youself. So you did not become a priest, but it is not late for another option, is it? You might explore other ways how to help Holy Mother Church in protecting her flock. The Church is harmed by priests who live double lives, those who are unable to sublimate or stem expression of their sexual urge, seeking the company of women, as well as those who seek the company of other men, and worse, use the vulnerability of children, for sex. The clergy abuse scandal propelled me to apply for training to be a Virtus facilitator, and volunteered my service to our parish.

What each one of us Catholics can do is to fervently pray for more true vocations to the priesthood.

The priest who heard my last confession assured me that I can be confident of God’s mercy (being greater than any sin I commit) and forgiveness. That I forgive others who have wronged me. That after penance, as part of my intentions in praying thru the intercession of the BVM, to pray for more vocations. Without priests, where do we turn for the grace of reconciliation and receiving our Lord in the Eucharist? Like Peter asked Him, “To whom shall we go, Lord?”

The beauty of our faith is awesome.
,

 

[CarlM86]

Understand that in Charity, I offered Fraternal Correction, I believe you may have missed that…

What did you wish to correct me about? Did you wish to make me aware of an error I did not already know about? Where?

Carl,
Your advice should be seen in the context of what you profess in other threads…

Do I profess anything other than the Catholic Faith in its fullness, without picking and choosing, without rejecting a word?

Carl,

Drunk on the street, can’t stop drinking giving advice on what to do with drinking?

Guy has a needle in his arm, shooting up heroin, giving advice on not shooting heroin?

Credibility Carl, Credibility…

How was that fraternal correction, my friend?

You were not correcting me. You were undermining me.

Even if you had been telling me to cease and desist and change my lifestyle, it wouldn’t have been correction, since that’s what I’ve made clear I intend on doing anyway. That’s not correction. That’s restating what I have already said.

And not once have I offered correction to anyone - OP is attempting to live a Catholic life as best as he can and he’s doing it better than I am - he does not need correcting. He needs support in doing what he’s doing.

I admire him for being a better human being and a better Christian than I am, and I can only hope he continues going down the right path, even though he is currently faced with a very difficult and tempting situation.

 

[StevenFrancis]

Up until recently I have lived a normal everyday life, centered around college work, my night job and my Catholic faith. It was everything I wanted it to be- It was all going to plan, a structured, respectable and Catholic life. I attended Mass every week, said my prayers daily, went to confession monthly and campaigned for Catholic social issues.

However, some time ago I became friends with a guy who was gay but still practices his faith in the best way that he can, we shared many common interests and it was just one of those friendships between two guys that every man has. Yet, after some time I realized that I actually had feelings for him in a more intimate way, this came as a shock as I had never had homosexual feelings before, I resisted the feelings for some time, I even stopped seeing him but because we work together it was impossible to avoid him completely. I really struggled with these feelings and it seemed that despite how often I knelt crying my eyes out and begging God to take these feelings away my prayers were not answered. I quickly sank into depression and I took to drink as a way of dealing with my pain. I wasn’t an alcoholic but I was binge drinking every weekend. One night, we were at a party together and well, I got quite drunk, I went outside for a cigarette and he followed me. He told me that he had feelings for me and that he knew that I had feelings for him, he kissed me. I knew right then that this wasn’t some kind of phase or confusion, I had always felt like this but had never realized it. I realized that I love him.

As great as that feeling was the despair returned quickly as I knew straight away that if I followed my heart I would never again be able to play the role that I have played. I have worked tirelessly for my faith all my life, I love my Church and I try to be loyal to it but I cannot ignore him either. He and I are now seeing each other, but I now know that I will now be committing mortal sin, that I will never enjoy the Eucharist again or be able to pray in the same way, that I can never attend Confession again or enjoy the peace that comes from being Catholic all because of the way that I was born. I now have to choose between the man I love and the faith I hold so dear. I do not want to give up either, I cannot believe that God created me like this and has given me such capability to love but demands that I don’t love, that if I act in the way He created me then I cannot be part of his communion, that I cannot receive the same help from the sacraments as His other children, such a God would be by His very nature an unjust God. I now am left agonizing over what to do, broken hearted for my faith. I want to ask you all, whoever you are, Can anybody give me advice and above all their prayers.

I urge you with all my heart to visit this website: couragerc.net/. You are asking for “advice”, and I can’t think of a better place to get it. They are helping so very many people caught in the same seeming dilemma that you face. Please read and respond to everything they have. Follow all the sub-links. Make some phone calls. Pray, and know that you are a loved child of God.

 

[CopticChristian]

What did you wish to correct me about? Did you wish to make me aware of an error I did not already know about? Where?

Do I profess anything other than the Catholic Faith in its fullness, without picking and choosing, without rejecting a word?

How was that fraternal correction, my friend?

You were not correcting me. You were undermining me.

Even if you had been telling me to cease and desist and change my lifestyle, it wouldn’t have been correction, since that’s what I’ve made clear I intend on doing anyway. That’s not correction. That’s restating what I have already said.

And not once have I offered correction to anyone - OP is attempting to live a Catholic life as best as he can and he’s doing it better than I am - he does not need correcting. He needs support in doing what he’s doing.

I admire him for being a better human being and a better Christian than I am, and I can only hope he continues going down the right path, even though he is currently faced with a very difficult and tempting situation.

Carl,

It appears that you are aware of what it is you call error and you profess to believe the Faith once delivered to the Apostles without denying one word. While you believe that there is a difference in correction and undermining, it is undermining you percieve and I cannot do anything to change your peception. Your understanding of lack of direction in your life was not directly mentioned and you freely admit an intention not yet realized and for that you should be praised. I believe that holding yourself in contrast to what another does or does not do as it concerns what you believe to be gradations of adherence to the moral life serve no one. Admiration is always good and prudence dictates where that admiration is directed so as to reflect like sunlight from that which we admire so as to aid in illuminating within ourselves the growth of a similar admiration that others may see within us.

 

[mugginsjr]

What each one of us Catholics can do is to fervently pray for more true vocations to the priesthood.

The priest who heard my last confession assured me that I can be confident of God’s mercy (being greater than any sin I commit) and forgiveness. That I forgive others who have wronged me. That after penance, as part of my intentions in praying thru the intercession of the BVM, to pray for more vocations. Without priests, where do we turn for the grace of reconciliation and receiving our Lord in the Eucharist? Like Peter asked Him, “To whom shall we go, Lord?”

The beauty of our faith is awesome.
,

Interesting you should mention other avenues of performing God’s work… Yes, of course everyday is filled with those opportunities. But specifically, shortly after batting myself around for failing to answer God’s calling I found a woman, non-denominational, I think, who in her 60’s was visiting biker bars and other establishments of “less” repute, I should say, to plant a very tiny little seed. She had fun, played pool with them, laughed, joked, and she seemed to be received very well in the documentary I saw. But at some point before leaving she would very solemnly say, without missing a hitch, “I hope some time, maybe someday, when you have a moment alone, that you might just think about life and Jesus, and maybe if just talking to Him might help you.”

So of course that was my out for failing to answer the call to priesthood. Unfortunately that is quite a dark road and I fell away from God for a while.

How does this apply to our friend, HeavHelp? I don’t know. I think it is amazing he is still with the Church frankly, if what I hear about his experience with a priest is any indicator. There are so many things that aggravate me about the church. Pedophile priests, for example, really bother me. More-so is the fact that they get slapped on the wrist, confess and “Oh, he’s fine now. Send him to another Parrish.” They don’t change, they are never fine, and in the real world they go to prison. There’s no question that the Church openly bungled this matter. Now it’s just a question of who will finally shout that the king is naked? I will.

During my pre-marriage counseling with priests in a new church, and who I didn’t really know, something even odder than that happens. The pastor, an older gentleman, announced that it would be a two-tiered counseling plan. He would handle the counseling of my fiance for the first six weeks, and his assistant pastor would handle my counseling simultaneously. Our two rooms were almost adjacent to one another in the basement of their home. I have an uncanny ability to block out ambient noise, so although I could hear the priest and my wife speaking through the wall I paid absolutely no attention to it. I was 25 at the time and I guess my priest was about the same. As we spoke I could see that his concentration was constantly being interrupted, I didn’t know what to think other than maybe he had trouble staying focused. But after 5 minutes in he finally just relaxed his shoulders and let out a huge breath. He looked absolutely defeated. And he gave me the most sincere look that i think anyone has ever given me and said - “I need you to come with me because I want to show you something.” It turns out he had been listening to what the other priest had been saying to my wife. He burst into the pastors door, I thought he had gone mad, but followed him in there and lo and behold - I see the pastors hand resting on the inside of my wife’s thigh against her vagina. I don’t know if that Pastor was practicing hypnotism or what, because as I said, i wasn’t paying attention. But I grabbed my wife and immediately left. In the car she told me that she had no idea the priest had put his hand on her leg.

HeavenHelp, I don’t know what to tell you except that this Church is not perfect. The Lord knows I’m aware of that. But that younger priest? He was a pretty good guy. And yeah, the Church has problems. There are problems everywhere. There are priests that molest, cops that murder people, and apparently in Wisconsin candy factory workers actually kill people and eat them. Or wait, that was actually just one candy factory worker. And HeavenHelp, that was just one priest. With all of their trouble, with all of the things that truly aggravate me about this church, and I mean things that are actually divisive, I still have not found a truer Word of God than what I find in the Catechism of the Catholic faith. You sound like a very devout Catholic and I think you have probably searched also.

But I don’t know what to tell you. The church says that sexual acts - period - are sinful, yet permitted between man and wife. Thinking about sex, is sinful they say. It is lust, and Christ was pretty clear about that - it would be better to poke out a lustful eye than to have it cause you to go to hell. I can’t advise you on any of that, except to say that I suffer from lust also. Prayer and a close relationship with God are most important, though, i think. And I wish I knew of a priest to send you to, but it’s unlikely I’m from your area. I don’t know anything about this organization or if they could help you. They are called the Catholic Association for Gay and Lesbian Ministry. Perhaps someone else here may know a little more about them.

 

[Rau]

I simply cannot believe that I must sacrifice the one I love for the sake of an interpretation of Scripture. Nor can I believe that God calls us to be celibate when I certainly was not. Vocation is one thing but to extend that to those who were not called to be celibate and I am certain I was not, to be celibate says a lot about our grasp on Divine matters. For me, I am starting to believe that am going to have to live my life and leave it to God to be my judge.

Your reasoning may be a bit circular. If you start with the (catholic) position that your sexuality is reserved for the state of marriage (a state into which only a Man + Woman may enter), then it follows that you are at this time called to be celibate. I agree that it is hard for you to comply - this is a tough cross for you to bear.

 

[CopticChristian]

Interesting you should mention other avenues of performing God’s work… Yes, of course everyday is filled with those opportunities. But specifically, shortly after batting myself around for failing to answer God’s calling I found a woman, non-denominational, I think, who in her 60’s was visiting biker bars and other establishments of “less” repute, I should say, to plant a very tiny little seed. She had fun, played pool with them, laughed, joked, and she seemed to be received very well in the documentary I saw. But at some point before leaving she would very solemnly say, without missing a hitch, “I hope some time, maybe someday, when you have a moment alone, that you might just think about life and Jesus, and maybe if just talking to Him might help you.”

So of course that was my out for failing to answer the call to priesthood. Unfortunately that is quite a dark road and I fell away from God for a while.

How does this apply to our friend, HeavHelp? I don’t know. I think it is amazing he is still with the Church frankly, if what I hear about his experience with a priest is any indicator. There are so many things that aggravate me about the church. Pedophile priests, for example, really bother me. More-so is the fact that they get slapped on the wrist, confess and “Oh, he’s fine now. Send him to another Parrish.” They don’t change, they are never fine, and in the real world they go to prison. There’s no question that the Church openly bungled this matter. Now it’s just a question of who will finally shout that the king is naked? I will.

During my pre-marriage counseling with priests in a new church, and who I didn’t really know, something even odder than that happens. The pastor, an older gentleman, announced that it would be a two-tiered counseling plan. He would handle the counseling of my fiance for the first six weeks, and his assistant pastor would handle my counseling simultaneously. Our two rooms were almost adjacent to one another in the basement of their home. I have an uncanny ability to block out ambient noise, so although I could hear the priest and my wife speaking through the wall I paid absolutely no attention to it. I was 25 at the time and I guess my priest was about the same. As we spoke I could see that his concentration was constantly being interrupted, I didn’t know what to think other than maybe he had trouble staying focused. But after 5 minutes in he finally just relaxed his shoulders and let out a huge breath. He looked absolutely defeated. And he gave me the most sincere look that i think anyone has ever given me and said - “I need you to come with me because I want to show you something.” It turns out he had been listening to what the other priest had been saying to my wife. He burst into the pastors door, I thought he had gone mad, but followed him in there and lo and behold - I see the pastors hand resting on the inside of my wife’s thigh against her vagina. I don’t know if that Pastor was practicing hypnotism or what, because as I said, i wasn’t paying attention. But I grabbed my wife and immediately left. In the car she told me that she had no idea the priest had put his hand on her leg.

HeavenHelp, I don’t know what to tell you except that this Church is not perfect. The Lord knows I’m aware of that. But that younger priest? He was a pretty good guy. And yeah, the Church has problems. There are problems everywhere. There are priests that molest, cops that murder people, and apparently in Wisconsin candy factory workers actually kill people and eat them. Or wait, that was actually just one candy factory worker. And HeavenHelp, that was just one priest. With all of their trouble, with all of the things that truly aggravate me about this church, and I mean things that are actually divisive, I still have not found a truer Word of God than what I find in the Catechism of the Catholic faith. You sound like a very devout Catholic and I think you have probably searched also.

But I don’t know what to tell you. The church says that sexual acts - period - are sinful, yet permitted between man and wife. Thinking about sex, is sinful they say. It is lust, and Christ was pretty clear about that - it would be better to poke out a lustful eye than to have it cause you to go to hell. I can’t advise you on any of that, except to say that I suffer from lust also. Prayer and a close relationship with God are most important, though, i think. And I wish I knew of a priest to send you to, but it’s unlikely I’m from your area. I don’t know anything about this organization or if they could help you…

They are called the Catholic Association for Gay and Lesbian Ministry. Perhaps someone else here may know a little more about them

not good, look here…

catholicculture.org/culture/reviews/view.cfm?recnum=2598

Description
The Catholic Association for Lesbian and Gay Ministries - “CALGM” (formerly the National Association of Catholic Diocesan Lesbian and Gay Ministries - NACDLGM) was formed in 1994. Its self-stated mission reads thus: “Inspired by the Gospel of Jesus Christ and grounded in the Catholic moral and social justice tradition, the National Association of Catholic Diocesan Lesbian and Gay Ministries, as a resource and network, encourages pastoral care with lesbian and gay persons and their families.” Unfortunately, what this organization offers is directly contrary to true pastoral care. Rather than ministering to those with same-sex attractions, the NACDLGM only encourages a defiance of the Church’s teachings. A better resource for this issue is the Courage website.

You probably should know more about what you believe is helpful before suggesting it is helpful…not helpful…

 

[Rau]

Do as I do not as I say

or

Do as I say not as I do

Which do you believe has the most value…? What you say? or What you do?

Credibility comes in leading by example…

or do you believe otherwise…

So, perhaps those who are homosexual, but have remained true to catholic teaching (or lapsed and have “reformed”), would make the best teachers and leaders on this issue - and maybe the only truly credible ones.

Most of us here however lack a deep understanding of the OP’s situation because we have no experience of it. That does not reduce our ability to state what is right or wrong, but does limit a true understanding of the challenges involved.

Those who are not “reformed” remain capable of stating what they believe is right or wrong. They, like us, can’t claim to have the secret of changing their ways.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

So, perhaps those who are homosexual, but have remained true to catholic teaching (or lapsed and have “reformed”), would make the best teachers and leaders on this issue - and maybe the only truly credible ones.

Most of us here however lack a deep understanding of the OP’s situation because we have no experience of it. That does not reduce our ability to state what is right or wrong, but does limit a true understanding of the challenges involved.

Those who are not “reformed” remain capable of stating what they believe is right or wrong. They, like us, can’t claim to have the secret of changing their ways.

That is too rational.

 

[johnnyc176]

So, perhaps those who are homosexual, but have remained true to catholic teaching (or lapsed and have “reformed”), would make the best teachers and leaders on this issue - and maybe the only truly credible ones.

Most of us here however lack a deep understanding of the OP’s situation because we have no experience of it. That does not reduce our ability to state what is right or wrong, but does limit a true understanding of the challenges involved.

Those who are not “reformed” remain capable of stating what they believe is right or wrong. They, like us, can’t claim to have the secret of changing their ways.

Don’t all sinners have experience in ‘changing their ways’. And for help in that we have the saints to look to for inspiration and Christ to call upon with prayer.

 

[mugginsjr]

not good, look here…

catholicculture.org/culture/reviews/view.cfm?recnum=2598

You probably should know more about what you believe is helpful before suggesting it is helpful…not helpful…

Please excuse my ignorance. I can assure you that my hand is extrended only in the kindest means possible and I have no desire to give you or anyone else any false information, much less any reason to suspect I would do so intentionally.

The argument you supplied seems to me to be nothing more than suspicions stated as facts.
COPTIC's LINK:

Unfortunately, what this organization offers is directly contrary to true pastoral care. Rather than ministering to those with same-sex attractions, the NACDLGM only encourages a defiance of the Church’s teachings.

These statements are made as facts without any supporting evidence what so ever.

When correcting me in the future, or suggesting somehow that you have insight beyond any other person, it would probably be accepted more graciously if you used studied and empirical information, such as direct evidence in support of a suspicion, to state what is basically nothing more than your opinion.

That’s a bit of unpleasantry I hope to avoid in the future. So perhaps if my previous post wasn’t clear, let me concretely say now that if someone else WHO IS GAY should have had experiences with the Catholic Association for Gay and Lesbian Ministries and can attest to whether or not this association can be helpful or a hindrance, perhaps they could obligingly share that insight WITH THE ORIGINAL POSTER, who from what I can tell is in turmoil over this issue. I am not gay, but can certainly understand the frustration.

And off topic but important for this thread is my confession that I did not come here to play one-upmanship with other Catholics. I know that other boards are filled with people who seem to scour posts in order to find corrections they can make. I will not comment on what their lives must be filled with or lacking, as I think such rhetoric could only be hurtful to them. But I will add that I, myself, am hurt when someone who I was not even addressing chimes in to tell me that my opinion is useless when it was offered only from the purest empathy and heartfelt desire to reach out to someone who might need a hand to hold.

Jesus told a story once of a family who was invited to their neighbors religious gathering. Upon arrival they found a seat amongst the gathering, obviously an open field I have always presumed, and immediately felt ashamed because all of the other members had brought food, as was customary in their gatherings. While the others picnicked and frolicked, the new family sat alone and dejected.

Am I alone here? Am I the only one who believes that Christ was saying it doesn’t matter what a person’s religious beliefs are or the underlying church structure that brings them to worship God? What matters, guys, is accepting those people, taking your food and picnic blanket over to them and share with them your feast. That is what Christ is saying!

So please, take all the written laws and scribed traditions and shelve them. The Sauducees and Pharisees are no longer required as the Holy Spirit guides our hearts and minds and souls. Yes, that new family might be sinners according to the traditions of your faith. But you are not called to admonish them. Or me.

Before we comment on anothers advice, let’s first consider whether it is equivalent to carrying our picnic basket to him/her or if it is more like throwing our gnawed and stripped chicken bones at him. We are Catholic, which means we were called to this faith because we were ready for a higher understaning. I think it is important to practice this faith in all things we do. How does bickering and typo correcting appear to a poster who is honestly conflicted between his love for God and his steadfast faith and extreme feelings he is having that MAY be contrary? Let’s try to focus on his needs right now instead of trying to one-up each other.

 

[fix]

Please excuse my ignorance. I can assure you that my hand is extrended only in the kindest means possible and I have no desire to give you or anyone else any false information, much less any reason to suspect I would do so intentionally.

The argument you supplied seems to me to be nothing more than suspicions stated as facts.

These statements are made as facts without any supporting evidence what so ever.

When correcting me in the future, or suggesting somehow that you have insight beyond any other person, it would probably be accepted more graciously if you used studied and empirical information, such as direct evidence in support of a suspicion, to state what is basically nothing more than your opinion.

That’s a bit of unpleasantry I hope to avoid in the future. So perhaps if my previous post wasn’t clear, let me concretely say now that if someone else WHO IS GAY should have had experiences with the Catholic Association for Gay and Lesbian Ministries and can attest to whether or not this association can be helpful or a hindrance, perhaps they could obligingly share that insight WITH THE ORIGINAL POSTER, who from what I can tell is in turmoil over this issue. I am not gay, but can certainly understand the frustration.

And off topic but important for this thread is my confession that I did not come here to play one-upmanship with other Catholics. I know that other boards are filled with people who seem to scour posts in order to find corrections they can make. I will not comment on what their lives must be filled with or lacking, as I think such rhetoric could only be hurtful to them. But I will add that I, myself, am hurt when someone who I was not even addressing chimes in to tell me that my opinion is useless when it was offered only from the purest empathy and heartfelt desire to reach out to someone who might need a hand to hold.

Jesus told a story once of a family who was invited to their neighbors religious gathering. Upon arrival they found a seat amongst the gathering, obviously an open field I have always presumed, and immediately felt ashamed because all of the other members had brought food, as was customary in their gatherings. While the others picnicked and frolicked, the new family sat alone and dejected.

Am I alone here? Am I the only one who believes that Christ was saying it doesn’t matter what a person’s religious beliefs are or the underlying church structure that brings them to worship God? What matters, guys, is accepting those people, taking your food and picnic blanket over to them and share with them your feast. That is what Christ is saying!

So please, take all the written laws and scribed traditions and shelve them. The Sauducees and Pharisees are no longer required as the Holy Spirit guides our hearts and minds and souls. Yes, that new family might be sinners according to the traditions of your faith. But you are not called to admonish them. Or me.

Before we comment on anothers advice, let’s first consider whether it is equivalent to carrying our picnic basket to him/her or if it is more like throwing our gnawed and stripped chicken bones at him. We are Catholic, which means we were called to this faith because we were ready for a higher understaning. I think it is important to practice this faith in all things we do. How does bickering and typo correcting appear to a poster who is honestly conflicted between his love for God and his steadfast faith and extreme feelings he is having that MAY be contrary? Let’s try to focus on his needs right now instead of trying to one-up each other.

Is this your dogma? It certainly is not from the Church founded by Christ.

 

[CopticChristian]

Most of us here however lack a deep understanding of the OP’s situation because we have no experience of it. That does not reduce our ability to state what is right or wrong, but does limit a true understanding of the challenges involved.

Those who are not “reformed” remain capable of stating what they believe is right or wrong. They, like us, can’t claim to have the secret of changing their ways.

So, perhaps those who are homosexual, but have remained true to catholic teaching (or lapsed and have “reformed”), would make the best teachers and leaders on this issue - and maybe the only truly credible ones.

Just so you understand, this is a common sentiment that emanates from Empiricism. Only those that have experienced can render an understanding of what it is that they experienced and are the only useful aids to understanding of that experience. Wrong…

This is what is seen in the12 step religion of AA. Only an alcoholic can help an alcoholic.

You may consider and compare and contrast that with what is known. The Church in wisdom asks us to follow Saints…those that have sinned and followed Christ and little do we hear about their sin…mostly we hear about their Saint…Saint=what they do as they respond to do as we should do and follow Christ…as you know the Catechism invites all

To believe
Live the Sacramental Life
Life in Christ=Saint if followed as directed
Prayer

So, really what you are saying is that any immorality can only be dealt with by those that have experience that immorality and all other outside guidance is of no use thus…

rendering all priests impotent unless they have experienced and professed all manner of sin…

Rethink this…

 

[CopticChristian]

That is too rational.

No, it is irrational.

 

[CopticChristian]

Don’t all sinners have experience in ‘changing their ways’. And for help in that we have the saints to look to for inspiration and Christ to call upon with prayer.

This is rational.