Gay Christians, controversial nun among those set to greet Pope Francis

[808Catholic]

Our respective opinions are not mutually exclusive.

I would add only that Obama’s fear of the Church lies especially in the person of the Pope–as opposed to the Catholic establishment in America. Obama more than once has demonstrated little fear and no respect for the latter while effecting his agenda. He is now acting similarly in regard to the Holy Father, and that’s what has rightfully offended the official in the Vatican.

BTW, Episcopal Bishop Robinson’s letter to Francis regarding that issue seems disingenuous and preachy. The Pope will see right through it, but never let on that he does.

Remember when our president bowed to a foreign Saudi prince or king? Think he’ll show the same deference to the leader of 1 billion Catholics?

 

[benjamindt]

I don’t see this as trying to destroy anyone or anything at all. Gay and trans* Christians exist. Many, including myself, have felt alienated by the Catholic Church, feeling that there is no place for them there. Even if they don’t have the opportunity to speak at this, it’s good to have their presence acknowledged.

there’s a difference between what you feel and what you do. The Church does not teach that you are not welcome, it teaches the same thing to us all, that if you are tempted to sin, you need to resist that temptation.

Our lifestyle choices are what are to be alienated and rejected, not the person, and while we should acknowledge the struggles that we all face, one should not expect the Church to accommodate, accept or affirm a sinful lifestyle, whether it be lust of any kind, gluttony, avarice etc.

The difference lies in the people. This appears not to be a group of people who are penitent and are just saying “look at what i struggle with, please acknowledge my suffering and help me”, it seems more likely that these are people who say “i like what i am doing and i’m gonna smack you in the face with it until you accept it and affirm it.”

Obviously the Church does not wish to alienate anyone, but we must have a repentant attitude before we can be helped by anyone.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

What struck us as we read about this small controversy is the contrast between the administration’s apparent decision to risk a bit of rudeness in the case of the pope and its overwhelming deference to foreign dictators when similar issues arise. When Secretary of State John F. Kerry traveled to Havana to reopen the U.S. Embassy recently, he painstakingly excluded from the guest list any democrat, dissident or member of civil society who might offend the Castro brothers.

And when Chinese President Xi J(name removed by moderator)ing comes to the White House next week, shortly after the pope leaves town, it’s a safe bet that he won’t have to risk being photographed with anyone of whom he disapproves. Chen Guangcheng, the courageous blind lawyer, for example, lives nearby in exile, but he probably won’t be at the state dinner. Neither will Falun Gong activists, democracy advocates or anyone else who might, well, give offense.

washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-white-house-is-more-afraid-of-offending-chinas-president-than-the-pope/2015/09/18/33f9fde8-5e2e-11e5-9757-e49273f05f65_story.html

 

[Path_Finder]

washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-white-house-is-more-afraid-of-offending-chinas-president-than-the-pope/2015/09/18/33f9fde8-5e2e-11e5-9757-e49273f05f65_story.html

Very good points in that article.

Franklin Graham speaks out:

It’s wise of the Vatican to question President Obama’s guest list for the Pope’s visit next week—that list should raise a lot of eyebrows! The Wall Street Journal says those invited to the Pope’s welcome celebration include transgender activists, the first openly gay U.S. Episcopal bishop, and an activist nun whose organization supports abortion. This is disgraceful and obviously inappropriate. Is there no end to the lengths the president will go to in order to push his sinful agenda?

newsmax.com/Headline/graham-pope-white-house-guests/2015/09/19/id/692354/?ns_mail_uid=364940&ns_mail_job=1636145_09192015&s=al&dkt_nbr=co4kjxuu

The article mentions the previously quoted article from the Washington Post:

Even The Washington Post questioned Obama’s guest list, pointing out that it shows that the White House is showing less respect for Pope Francis than foreign dictators.

White House Press Secretary Josh Earnest noted that "there will be 15,000 other people there too: at the White House’s South Lawn on Wednesday.

The Vatican has said it is concerned that any photos of Pope Francis posing with the controversial guests could be misconstrued that he endorses their activities, which are against church doctrine.

Read Latest Breaking News from Newsmax.com newsmax.com/Headline/graham-pope-white-house-guests/2015/09/19/id/692354/#ixzz3mFGEQRmu

Italics mine, I did not realize the Vatican stated such. Pardon me if I missed this among the posts, I will reread them.

 

[Thorolfr]

Very good points in that article.

Franklin Graham speaks out:

newsmax.com/Headline/graham-pope-white-house-guests/2015/09/19/id/692354/?ns_mail_uid=364940&ns_mail_job=1636145_09192015&s=al&dkt_nbr=co4kjxuu

The article mentions the previously quoted article from the Washington Post:

Read Latest Breaking News from Newsmax.com newsmax.com/Headline/graham-pope-white-house-guests/2015/09/19/id/692354/#ixzz3mFGEQRmu

Italics mine, I did not realize the Vatican stated such. Pardon me if I missed this among the posts, I will reread them.

The Vatican has said it is concerned that any photos of Pope Francis posing with the controversial guests could be misconstrued that he endorses their activities, which are against church doctrine.

So is the Vatican also concerned that if the Pope is photographed with Obama, it might be construed to mean that he endorses all the President’s activities?

 

[Path_Finder]

So is the Vatican also concerned that if the Pope is photographed with Obama, it might be construed to mean that he endorses all the President’s activities?

President Obama is there as the elected leader of the United States and all responsibilities that entails as this country hosts the Holy Father.

Perhaps these others might not be there except for what they stand for or symbolize.

It might not be any different than if you had say, a non-elected person such as Rush Limbaugh invited. Rush may stand for a lot of things, talk show host and so on but the Vatican may well, shy away from photographs with him as well.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Perhaps the White House wanted to bring together representatives of a pluralistic, multi-faceted country to meet the Pope. Bishop Robinson is a person of faith, as is Sister Simone Campbell. My guess is that there are other people in that crowd of 15,000 that represent diverse cultures and stances. This is a GOOD thing. No one is trying to be disrespectful to the Pope. We are who we are and should be proud of that diversity.

thoroflr, thank you for posting Bishop Gene Robinson’s letter. I have known him for years. He is a good man and his letter, I believe, was sincere.

 

[KSU]

Remember when our president bowed to a foreign Saudi prince or king? Think he’ll show the same deference to the leader of 1 billion Catholics?

Our president was raised and schooled as a Muslim, and sees only workplace violence rather than Muslim terrorism in America. He treats captured Muslim terrorists not as Enemy Combatants but as criminals entitled to all the legal protections of US citizens. Without explanation, he wanted and got a Muslim terrorist government in Egypt rather than Mubarak who was peaceful regarding Israel ( thanks be to God and the Egyptian military that terrorist government was overthrown).

Without explanation, our president helped overthrow (more than we know) the then peaceful Gaddafi in Libya, whereafter terrorist Muslims filled the vacuum and murdered Americans in Benghazi while he stood by. He has publicly referred to his faith as Muslim, but “corrected” himself when what he said was pointed out. He publicly referred to the number of American States as 57 which is the number of Muslim states, and he releases captured Muslim terrorist leaders as often as politically possible in order to close the prison at Guantanamo. After all, he reminds us, the Muslims don’t like it, and, for good measure, Obama’s Justice Department dismissed an already-won (by the Bush DOJ) voter intimidation case against Malik Zulu Shabazz’s New Black Panthers.

Obama squandered our hard-won victory in Iraq by withdrawing all residual US troops, thereby, as predicted by our military, allowing Muslim terrorists to establish an Islamic “caliphate” in an area straddling Iraq and Syria. ** As a direct result**, he now watches while those barbaric Muslim terrorists commit unspeakable torture and genocide against Christian men, women and children in the Mideast, causing untold suffering and mayhem throughout the region, now impacting Europe.

The horror is such as has not been seen since WW II, causing Catholic prelates in the Mideast **and even the Holy Father himself ** to cry out to the international community of civilized people for military intervention. But Obama says “no”. I.E., he got re-elected in 2012 by saying he brought peace to the Mideast by withdrawing US peace-keeping troops in Iraq, so he can’t admit that today’s horrors are the result.

So, no, 808Catholic, I don’t expect him to give Pope Francis the same deference he gave the Saudi leader.

 

[Catholic_farmer]

It is very unusual to invite guests in opposition to the honored guest to an official White House dinner. These guests are part of a very powerful lobby and big donors to the president. This move is clearly political and the Vatican’s response is entirely appropriate.

Our Holy Father will be gracious to all, but his visit might be cut a bit short. I think that is also appropriate considering the breech from protocol.

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

Of course the Pope welcomes all sinners. Of course he is one himself. But, there is a very important theological difference between private sin and public scandal…a difference between the Pope welcoming all repentent sinners to the Church, and appearing to publicly condone sin.

Love the sinner just don’t be seen with them in public, right? Seems to me that this anonymous Vatican source isn’t speaking with the views of Pope Francis in mind and there are bigger problems when some are more concerned with photo ops than the mission of the Catholic Church.

 

[musivc]

This is a GOOD thing. No one is trying to be disrespectful to the Pope. We are who we are and should be proud of that diversity.
.

Those that preach diversity are the ones who hate Christianity and are relentlessly trying to destroy its teachings about abortion and gay marriage. Diversity is a code word for “anything goes”. Who are you to say that Obama is devious, or that supporting abortion is heretical?This is how asinine the diversity argument has become. Anyone who does not see this has not thought this out through and through.

Liberals hate the rules of the Catholic Church and are relentlessly trying to change it to fit their needs. The way to heal the sick is not to condone or enable their behavior with "private blessings or by meet and greets- the way is to start practicing what you preach and start teaching the Word. One thing about those baptists is that they know their Bible inside and out- Catholics not much.

 

[benjamindt]

Perhaps the White House wanted to bring together representatives of a pluralistic, multi-faceted country to meet the Pope. Bishop Robinson is a person of faith, as is Sister Simone Campbell.

You can’t possibly know what’s in their hearts. My first thought was: “yes, but faith in what”.

My second thought was: “perhaps but what they do is in direct opposition to Catholic teaching and seemingly without remorse, so what does your assumed faith of theirs matter?”

Since when is having the viewpoint that sin is good as long as you feel good about it. You wouldn’t ask someone who promotes and practices adultery to help discuss what makes a good marriage.

Diversity is not good if we’re talking about mixing lies with truth and immoral with moral.

 

[musivc]

Love the sinner just don’t be seen with them in public, right? Seems to me that this anonymous Vatican source isn’t speaking with the views of Pope Francis in mind and there are bigger problems when some are more concerned with photo ops than the mission of the Catholic Church.

You fail to see that EVERYTHING is politics. These people are not stupid. They hate the dogma of the church and are trying to use Pope Francis’ kindness for their own agenda. EVERYTHING is political.

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

You fail to see that EVERYTHING is politics. These people are not stupid. They hate the dogma of the church and are trying to use Pope Francis’ kindness for their own agenda. EVERYTHING is political.

I don’t recall Jesus taking political considerations into account when dining or otherwise associating with sinners. If Jesus could break bread with Judas then I’m sure Pope Francis will be fine.

 

[musivc]

I don’t recall Jesus taking political considerations into account when dining or otherwise associating with sinners. If Jesus could break bread with Judas then I’m sure Pope Francis will be fine.

That is a distraction from the premise.

No one is saying that you or I or the Pope shouldn’teet with or fellowship with those who are considered to be today’s “tax collectors and Gentiles”. I live In a very liberal area and socialize with anyone under the sun no problem. The issue is with the blatant attempt to use Pope Francis for political purposes. I am well aware of how people attempt distract away from the premise. This is AGENDA driven to slowly break down catholic dogma, which will therefore enable liberals to say, “See? Even Catholics say this kind of behavior is ok.” By the responses here it is obvious that it is working.

The Religious leaders were always trying to trap Jesus for political reasons. The only reason why Pilate allowed the Jews to crucify Jesus was for
Political reasons-(he didn’t want a rebellion). He didn’t wake up that morning with any great desire to kill Jesus.

EVERYTHING IS POLITICS- EVEN THIS MESSAGE BOARD

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

No one is saying that you or I or the Pope shouldn’teet with or fellowship with those who are considered to be today’s “tax collectors and Gentiles”.

Except for the anonymous Vatican source…and several people here.

 

[benjamindt]

Except for the anonymous Vatican source…and several people here.

It’s not about evangelizing or conversion of the heart in this case. We are talking about the treatment of the Pope by this administration, as well as every other catholic. This isn’t Jesus meeting with sinners to sway their heart to conversion, this is about USING the Pope for political gain in this country by either forcing him to appear to condone sinful activity or labeling the Catholic Church as a hate group.

The recent things you’ve said in this thread come across as the rantings of one who has blindly entered this discussion solely for the purpose of trying to make the Pope and the Church look like hypocrites and thereby discounting their authenticity and Christianity. Just my two cents.

 

[Thorolfr]

Our president was raised and schooled as a Muslim, and sees only workplace violence rather than Muslim terrorism in America. He treats captured Muslim terrorists not as Enemy Combatants but as criminals entitled to all the legal protections of US citizens. Without explanation, he wanted and got a Muslim terrorist government in Egypt rather than Mubarak who was peaceful regarding Israel ( thanks be to God and the Egyptian military that terrorist government was overthrown).

Obama was not raised as a Muslim. His mother was Christian and he has never been a Muslim.

 

[Thorolfr]

You can’t possibly know what’s in their hearts. My first thought was: “yes, but faith in what”.

My second thought was: “perhaps but what they do is in direct opposition to Catholic teaching and seemingly without remorse, so what does your assumed faith of theirs matter?”

Since when is having the viewpoint that sin is good as long as you feel good about it. You wouldn’t ask someone who promotes and practices adultery to help discuss what makes a good marriage.

Diversity is not good if we’re talking about mixing lies with truth and immoral with moral.

The gathering of people at the White House is NOT going to be a gathering of devout Catholics. Not everyone who will be there will do things in accordance with Catholic teaching. The Pope will be a guest and no one will think that he picked the other guests who have been invited. When I’m invited to someone else’s house for dinner, I don’t demand from the host that everyone else who has been invited agree with me.

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

It’s not about evangelizing or conversion of the heart in this case. We are talking about the treatment of the Pope by this administration, as well as every other catholic. This isn’t Jesus meeting with sinners to sway their heart to conversion, this is about USING the Pope for political gain in this country by either forcing him to appear to condone sinful activity or labeling the Catholic Church as a hate group.

The recent things you’ve said in this thread come across as the rantings of one who has blindly entered this discussion solely for the purpose of trying to make the Pope and the Church look like hypocrites and thereby discounting their authenticity and Christianity. Just my two cents.

As far as I’m concerned, the statement made by the anonymous Vatican source was not authorized by Pope Francis. He has done enough saying and doing to demonstrate that this anonymous complaint is contrary to his own views. The statement certainly would not take the form of an anonymous complaint to the media had he approved it.