Gay Episcopal Bishop Says St. Paul Was Condemning Homosexual Acts by Heterosexuals

[Akini]

This is one of the numerous examples of someone interpreting the Bible verse to suit his own ego or behavior. This is not new to some of us. In fact, this was started by Mr. Martin Luther himself. This is the very reason (no official interpreter) why we have so many hundreds of protestant churches all over our planet.

Lord have mercy on me the sinnest of the sinners.

 

[Akini]

Originally Posted by wmscott
I am glad that this is not the norm for Episcopalians. However, why does the Episcopal Church continue to allow him to operate as a Bishop without any kind a censure?

The simple answer is that there is no final authority. The guy has probably already convinced his congregation on the interpretation of the text in question.

Lord have mercy on me the sinnest of the sinners

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I don’t know if I can agree here. The ACNA churches are predominantly evangelical with the exception of Iker’s diocese, etc. The Anglo-Catholics and high church folks have been pretty marginalized by the vangies. Most of AMIA and CANA are evangelical and the JI Packers of the world are the loudest voices along with David Virtue, another evangelical. Actually from what I understand there are more Anglo-Catholics and high churchmen in England than in the States? Evangelicals abound in the U.S. and in Africa, etc. ACNA is being steered in an evangelical direction…

Not mistaken at all. You have a pretty good idea of what the Episcopal Church is about. In the Church of England there is a much more visible Evangelical wing, but in the US, the church is mostly either broad church or high church. The high church services rival in ceremony anything you find in the Roman church.

 

[wmscott]

Somewhat. My beliefs more run along the lines of blurring the lines between everything perceived black and white. And yes, Eris is my deity.It does encourage all of those things but in the context of the religion itself. There are many individual schools of Discordianism, and I am the singular participant in my own sect of Discordianism. Also, above all things, I think the ability to dissent is very important. For those of us here in the US, we wouldn’t be the US if it wasn’t for dissent. However, if you are curious, I was formally a practicing Catholic. I am really not trying to troll and cause trouble, if that is why you are curious. Anything I say, I am serious about, and argue and debate in earnest. I want to learn the different sides of the arguments, as to educate myself on things I do not readily understand or agree with.

I was just curious as to what Discordian was; it is listed as your religion. I went out a goggled it and came away with the definition that I asked about. Thanks for responding.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I’m a former Baptist, visiting the Episcopal Church–only attended a few services. Will attend a 4 hour class tomorrow for “newcomers”–hopefully to learn more about this particular EC–since there are some significant variations among Churches. I don’t know where this Church stands on the same-sex affection issue.

I was always taught that homosexuality is a sin.

But, I have to wonder: if genetics and other applicable scientific fields were to prove, without a doubt, that homosexuality is genetic/biological; then it would surely have some effect upon our religious beliefs. If God creates certain people with “same-sex affection”; how can it be a sin? I am just thinking out loud here. I don’t really have an answer. I just think it is something worth asking.

Anna

 

[FabiusMaximus]

For some reason, this passage keeps coming to mind:
*
“Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”* (2 Timothy 4:2-4)

I wonder why…(sarcasm)…

 

[aspirant]

I was always taught that homosexuality is a sin.

But, I have to wonder: if genetics and other applicable scientific fields were to prove, without a doubt, that homosexuality is genetic/biological; then it would surely have some effect upon our religious beliefs.

Catholics distinguish between a homosexual inclination (same-sex attraction) and homosexual actions. The first is disordered but not sinful, it is the second that are morally problematic.

Even if people are born with this inclination, this view would not change. We believe that almost all humans* are born with disordered desires; being fallen does not provide an excuse to deliberately choose sin.

If God creates certain people with “same-sex affection”; how can it be a sin?

God created me. I, like almost all humans* in this life, have disordered desires. God did not intend for this to be so, it is a consequence of the sin of our first parents; I am a fallen being. It is not a sin for me to have disordered desires, but it would be a sin for me to deliberately choose to act on them. (In fact, I do sometimes act on them, and must repent!)

• The only people not born with disordered desires, according to Catholic faith, are our first parents, who subsequently sinned, and Jesus and Mary, who did not sin.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Just to get you thinking even harder, what if they come out with hard reserach that some men have brains that are hard-wired to pedophilia? What if pedophiles are predisposed in their genetic makeup or in their brains, etc. to rape little kids? Would that diminish the sinfulness? Whether or not we all have predispositions IMO isn’t the point. The Scriptures tell us that we all have the ability to overcome our demons through Christ. He gives us the strength and the way out. There’s always a way out given by God. It’s a cop-out to just surrender to nature and do what feels good as per the secular religion we’re being shoveled…I’d think long and hard before commiting to TEC…real long!

I’m a former Baptist, visiting the Episcopal Church–only attended a few services. Will attend a 4 hour class tomorrow for “newcomers”–hopefully to learn more about this particular EC–since there are some significant variations among Churches. I don’t know where this Church stands on the same-sex affection issue.

I was always taught that homosexuality is a sin.

But, I have to wonder: if genetics and other applicable scientific fields were to prove, without a doubt, that homosexuality is genetic/biological; then it would surely have some effect upon our religious beliefs. If God creates certain people with “same-sex affection”; how can it be a sin? I am just thinking out loud here. I don’t really have an answer. I just think it is something worth asking.

Anna

 

[Louie1983]

I see your back on Gurneyhalleck1.

and your faith says catholic?

 

[Louie1983]

Catholics distinguish between a homosexual inclination (same-sex attraction) and homosexual actions. The first is disordered but not sinful, it is the second that are morally problematic.

Even if people are born with this inclination, this view would not change. We believe that almost all humans* are born with disordered desires; being fallen does not provide an excuse to deliberately choose sin.

*God created me. I, like almost all humans in this life, have disordered desires. God did not intend for this to be so, it is a consequence of the sin of our first parents; I am a fallen being. It is not a sin for me to have disordered desires, but it would be a sin for me to deliberately choose to act on them. (In fact, I do sometimes act on them, and must repent!)
**

• The only people not born with disordered desires, according to Catholic faith, are our first parents, who subsequently sinned, and Jesus and Mary, who did not sin.

Beautiflly said!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

You must’ve been gone for a while? My wife and I went back and forth between the Anglican and Catholic Churches…we joked for a while that we have badges that say “catholic” and “anglican” with velcro on the back! …my wife and I have been at the Catholic Church for a while now…struggling with many issues and not thrilled but there nevertheless…

I see your back on Gurneyhalleck1.

and your faith says catholic?

 

[Andrew_Phillip]

Catholics distinguish between a homosexual inclination (same-sex attraction) and homosexual actions. The first is disordered but not sinful, it is the second that are morally problematic.

Even if people are born with this inclination, this view would not change. We believe that almost all humans* are born with disordered desires; being fallen does not provide an excuse to deliberately choose sin.

God created me. I, like almost all humans* in this life, have disordered desires. God did not intend for this to be so, it is a consequence of the sin of our first parents; I am a fallen being. It is not a sin for me to have disordered desires, but it would be a sin for me to deliberately choose to act on them. (In fact, I do sometimes act on them, and must repent!)

• The only people not born with disordered desires, according to Catholic faith, are our first parents, who subsequently sinned, and Jesus and Mary, who did not sin.

**How then do respond to the words of the Saviour which say that merely thinking (or desiring) to sin, makes one guilty of sin?

How do you extrapolate from the original sin of Adam & Eve, that they had no disordered desires (yet they sinned) - and that we have disordered desires as a consquence of their original sin??? The only consequence of their original sin (apart from a change in mankinds earthly conditions) is mortal death.

Where do you obtain the information that human “disordered desires” are a direct consequence of original sin???**

 

[aspirant]

How then do respond to the words of the Saviour which say that merely thinking (or desiring) to sin, makes one guilty of sin?

Here you speak of desires to which consent is given, which is an act of the will. But as we know from experience, one may be inclined toward an action without consenting to it.

 

[aspirant]

The only consequence of their original sin (apart from a change in mankinds earthly conditions) is mortal death.

Many Orthodox theologians disagree with you on this point.

Timothy (Bishop Kallistos) Ware, for example, wrote: “In virtue of this mysterious unity of the human race, not only Adam but all humankind became subject to mortality. Nor was the disintegration which followed from the fall merely physical. Cut off from God, Adam and his descendants passed under the domination of sin and of the devil. Each new human being is born into a world where sin prevails everywhere, a world in which it is easy to do evil and hard to do good. Our will is weakened and enfeebled by what the Greeks call ‘desire’ and the Latins ‘concupiscence.’ We are all subject to these, the spiritual effects of original sin.”

Or take a look around online. The OrthodoxWiki says “Mortality is certainly a result of the Fall, but along with this also what is termed ‘concupiscence’ in the writings of St Augustine of Hippo – this is the ‘evil impulse’ of Judaism, and in Orthodoxy, we might say this is our ‘disordered passion.’ It isn’t only that we are born in death, or in a state of distance from God, but also that we are born with disordered passion within us.” An article by Vladimir Moss says “Orthodoxy considers not only the incensive and appetitive passions to be diseased and infected by original sin, but also the reasoning faculty.” Or you will find Archpriest Alexander Golubov quoting St. Cyril of Alexandria: “Human nature became sick with sin. Because of the disobedience of one (that is, of Adam), the many became sinners; not because they transgressed together with Adam (for they were not there) but because they are of his nature, which entered under the dominion of sin… Human nature became ill and subject to corruption through the transgression of Adam, thus penetrating man’s very passions.” He also quotes Protopresbyter Michael Pomazansky: “Both the mind and the feelings have become darkened in him, and therefore his moral freedom often does not incline towards the good, but towards evil.” Or again, Antiochian Fr. George Morelli: “The Eastern Church does not teach that we inherit the guilt of Adam. Rather, we share in the sin of Adam in that we are born into a world where the consequences of sin prevail. These consequences include the brokenness—physical, mental, and spiritual—of disease and death. Our nature is corrupted. By our passions, we are subject to temptation, prone to sin, and share in death.” And so on.

You may not believe it, but plenty of Orthodox Christians do.

 

[Andrew_Phillip]

**Every single one of the quotes you provide simply state that we are born into a sinful world, where sin abounds since the original sin.

None of them argue that we a MORE prone to sin because of the original sin - or that Adam and Eve were less prone to sinful disorder than we are today.

They merely state the obvious - and that is since the original sin of Adam and Eve - mankind is subject to greater temptation as a result that sin abounds all around us.

Where do you feel that mankind today is fundamentally MORE disordered than Adam and Eve - because the implication of such an inherited disorder, would be that culpability is less than that of Adam and Eve - and this is NOT what the Church teaches - yours or mine.**

 

[aspirant]

Right. You think what you want.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Just to get you thinking even harder, what if they come out with hard reserach that some men have brains that are hard-wired to pedophilia? What if pedophiles are predisposed in their genetic makeup or in their brains, etc. to rape little kids? Would that diminish the sinfulness? Whether or not we all have predispositions IMO isn’t the point. The Scriptures tell us that we all have the ability to overcome our demons through Christ. He gives us the strength and the way out. There’s always a way out given by God. It’s a cop-out to just surrender to nature and do what feels good as per the secular religion we’re being shoveled…I’d think long and hard before commiting to TEC…real long!

gurneyhalleck1,

I’ve only had a few conversations with you on the forums. I do appreciate your direct responses–blunt at times–but nothing wrong with blunt.

The same sex affection issue is tough, any way you look at it. I would not advocate “surrendering to nature” to just “do what feels good.” Agreed, secular religion abounds in our society. We are bombarded with “feel good” religion and “gospels” of prosperity. The Baptist Church I left, has more than 12,000 members; and Sunday worship services are more like a spectator sport than actual worship. I’m all for praising God with our voices and talents; but the entertainment factor, in these services, is off the charts–and seems to be part of an epidemic in mega churches in Texas.

Sorry for digressing. Back to the topic. Pedophilia, whether perpetrated by homosexuals or heterosexuals is a destructive abomination. I am a survivor of childhood sexual assault–the perpetrator being a married heterosexual–a “friend” of the family. At age 55, I still deal with the issues of that assault, which lasted for about a year and a half around the age of 5 to 6 years old. I recently went back into counseling; because the “night terrors” returned, yet again. So, I can’t image that anyone would more more sensitive to this issue than myself.

I think the problem we face as Christians is how to minister to the homosexual community.

If we turn them away, how will they find the testimony of Christ?

If we embrace them, what effect will that have on the life of a Church?

How will their presence affect our children?

The safety of our children is a great concern; and it should be.

Keeping our children away from those of “same sex affection,” may protect them from the small percentage of homosexual pedophiles. Yet, keeping homosexuals out of our churches does not protect our children from heterosexual pedophiles. Pedophiles are often the last person you would suspect–usually a family member or a friend of the family (which was the case for me.)

As for the Episcopal Church; I am studying and asking many, many questions. I attended a 4-hour “Exploration” class, today—getting better acquainted with the Priest/Rector, Staff, and beliefs of the Church.

There were about 10 of us in the class. I was the only one to ask about the “same sex affection” issue. The Priest, who has been Rector at this particular Episcopal Church for the last 5 years, said that he believes Christ is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. He said he welcomes all to the Church; but would never agree to the Ordination of those of same-sex affection, nor would he perform a same-sex marriage. He said he made it very clear to this Episcopal Church, before he became Rector, that he will never change his mind on this issue. I was very relieved to hear this.

I’m too new to the congregation to know whether or not those of “same sex affection” are attending this Episcopal Church. I think there are probably far more liberal churches in the area, in which they would feel more comfortable.

Tough issue: keeping the message of Christ intact, while ministering to the lost and misguided.

Anna

 

[mark_a]

Gay Episcopal Bishop Says St. Paul Was Condemning Homosexual Acts by Heterosexuals

Although completely off the subject, this reminds me about the “Don’t ask don’t tell” confusion of President Clinton’s time in office, I remember reading a statement by a homosexual that he was not attracted to straight men, and therefore, there should be no discomfort felt by heterosexuals.

Give me a break.

These folks can weasel their way around anything.

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

But, I have to wonder: if genetics and other applicable scientific fields were to prove, without a doubt, that homosexuality is genetic/biological; then it would surely have some effect upon our religious beliefs. If God creates certain people with “same-sex affection”; how can it be a sin? I am just thinking out loud here. I don’t really have an answer. I just think it is something worth asking.

Anna

This is the issue that many in the Episcopal Church are wrestling with. Unfortunately, there are, on each side of the issue, those whose minds are made up by religion or by social consciousness. For me the question comes down to the fact that the scriptures do not show any warrant for novel sexual practices, and that St. Paul actually condemned the homosexuality he saw.

My attitude used to be that since God created so many homosexuals and lesbians, they should be entitled to the same kind of partnering that straight people enjoy.

But what do we really know from science? Will we ever be sure there is or is not a “gay gene”?

Despite the warnings offered by some former Episcopalians on this board, I think you may find the Episcopal Church to your liking. There is a refreshing lack of dogmatic thinking. To be sure, the Nicene Creed is our creed, and we believe that Christ came to save the world from sin and death. If an Episcopalian says that we hug trees or worship Buddha, well, run, do not walk.

 

[Anna_Scott]

gurneyhalleck1,

I’ve only had a few conversations with you on the forums. I do appreciate your direct responses–blunt at times–but nothing wrong with blunt.

The same sex affection issue is tough, any way you look at it. I would not advocate “surrendering to nature” to just “do what feels good.” Agreed, secular religion abounds in our society. We are bombarded with “feel good” religion and “gospels” of prosperity. The Baptist Church I left, has more than 12,000 members; and Sunday worship services are more like a spectator sport than actual worship. I’m all for praising God with our voices and talents; but the entertainment factor, in these services, is off the charts–and seems to be part of an epidemic in mega churches in Texas.

Sorry for digressing. Back to the topic. Pedophilia, whether perpetrated by homosexuals or heterosexuals is a destructive abomination. I am a survivor of childhood sexual assault–the perpetrator being a married heterosexual–a “friend” of the family. At age 55, I still deal with the issues of that assault, which lasted for about a year and a half around the age of 5 to 6 years old. I recently went back into counseling; because the “night terrors” returned, yet again. So, I can’t image that anyone would more more sensitive to this issue than myself.

I think the problem we face as Christians is how to minister to the homosexual community.

If we turn them away, how will they find the testimony of Christ?

If we embrace them, what effect will that have on the life of a Church?

How will their presence affect our children?

The safety of our children is a great concern; and it should be.

Keeping our children away from those of “same sex affection,” may protect them from the small percentage of homosexual pedophiles. Yet, keeping homosexuals out of our churches does not protect our children from heterosexual pedophiles. Pedophiles are often the last person you would suspect–usually a family member or a friend of the family (which was the case for me.)

As for the Episcopal Church; I am studying and asking many, many questions. I attended a 4-hour “Exploration” class, today—getting better acquainted with the Priest/Rector, Staff, and beliefs of the Church.

There were about 10 of us in the class. I was the only one to ask about the “same sex affection” issue. The Priest, who has been Rector at this particular Episcopal Church for the last 5 years, said that he believes Christ is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. He said he welcomes all to the Church; but would never agree to the Ordination of those of same-sex affection, nor would he perform a same-sex marriage. He said he made it very clear to this Episcopal Church, before he became Rector, that he will never change his mind on this issue. I was very relieved to hear this.

I’m too new to the congregation to know whether or not those of “same sex affection” are attending this Episcopal Church. I think there are probably far more liberal churches in the area, in which they would feel more comfortable.

Tough issue: keeping the message of Christ intact, while ministering to the lost and misguided.

Anna

This is the issue that many in the Episcopal Church are wrestling with. Unfortunately, there are, on each side of the issue, those whose minds are made up by religion or by social consciousness. For me the question comes down to the fact that the scriptures do not show any warrant for novel sexual practices, and that St. Paul actually condemned the homosexuality he saw.

My attitude used to be that since God created so many homosexuals and lesbians, they should be entitled to the same kind of partnering that straight people enjoy.

But what do we really know from science? Will we ever be sure there is or is not a “gay gene”?

Despite the warnings offered by some former Episcopalians on this board, I think you may find the Episcopal Church to your liking. There is a refreshing lack of dogmatic thinking. To be sure, the Nicene Creed is our creed, and we believe that Christ came to save the world from sin and death. If an Episcopalian says that we hug trees or worship Buddha, well, run, do not walk.

Usbek de Perse,

I appreciate your comments. Not sure if you read my post #57??

I do really like this particular Episcopal Church. I will keep asking questions.

I’m not planning on rushing into conversion, though. This will take prayerful consideration on many levels.

Anna