Gay Marriage and the End of Christian Civilization

[kenofken]

I cannot easily envision a scenario where people would use hate crimes law to force any church into gay marriage. The other situations regarding healthcare are fundamentally different. They involve public funding in the case of adoption. In the case of pharmacists, the law at least in my state does not require any individual pharmacist to act against thier own coscience. What it does do is prohibit pharmacists from actively obstructing patient care or making their own beliefs a patient’s problem. If a particular pharmacist wont’ fill birth control, it’s up to the pharmacy to make sure someone does. The situations that led to these laws passage inevitably involved individual pharmacists who abused their position of power and $100,000 plus jobs to bully patients, usually in a publicly humiliating way.

When it comes to churches handling their own eclesiastical affairs, courts have been very reticent to get involved. If churches could be successfully sued and forced to grant sacrements outside of their forms, surely it would have been done by now by bored atheists, divorced catholics who hadn’t gotten their annulments straight etc. If gays could force churches to do religious weddings, surely it would have been done by now in Canada or the UK, places with much more intrusive and politically correct hate statutes than our own.

 

[DawnInTexas]

I see a lot of issues related to medical practice (prescriptions, abortions at hospitals) and public services. Regardless of where you stand on these issues, they don’t dictated what one does in a Church/Synagogue/Temple. Most of it has to do with public funding. If you are getting public money, you have to play by the secular rules. Not all of your cases, but many.

Have you any idea how many Hospitals in our Country are Catholic?

The Bishops have stated they will close the Catholic Hospitals-if required to perform Abortions. (This battle is coming)…

A local Hospital here was started by Franciscans-decades ago. They named it “Trinity” after the Holy Trinity. They’ve been pushed out-so the Hospital can now permanently sterilize patients and perform abortions.

This is where you lose me. You basically say the law is passed, then this happens. Well, that is a big step that we have never seen. I can’t think of a single case where the law has entered a place of worship, and I really doubt it will happen now. Why can’t I sue as a Protestant to be married in your Church right now? Isnt that religious discrimination?

There is a New Age Secular religion coming. You will know it, by the lack of God being referenced. There are many precursors in existence today-that teach God is in you or God is the trees, grass and water all around you, Mother Earth. Yoga (Centering Prayer), Reiki, and other practices are lining up followers.

Be forewarned. Many will be deceived. A world-wide “religion.” It will be big. Many false wonders. This is why it is important to know your Faith-so you will not be deceived.

A Godless Religion will not stand for long-but many will fall for this “False Peace.”
Peace without God is a false peace, and will not last.

He promises.

God Bless.
+Jesus, I Trust in You!
Love, Dawn

 

[irishpatrick]

I see a lot of issues related to medical practice (prescriptions, abortions at hospitals) and public services. Regardless of where you stand on these issues, they don’t dictated what one does in a Church/Synagogue/Temple. Most of it has to do with public funding. If you are getting public money, you have to play by the secular rules. Not all of your cases, but many.

This is where you lose me. You basically say the law is passed, then this happens. Well, that is a big step that we have never seen. I can’t think of a single case where the law has entered a place of worship, and I really doubt it will happen now. Why can’t I sue as a Protestant to be married in your Church right now? Isnt that religious discrimination?

Protestants would not have equality case to make since they can marry in their own churches. Gays will have a equality case to make by stating certain churches will not allow them to marry, and they will build a case that the given church is filled with illegal hate towards gays…they will win the lawsuits and overtime crush the churches into submission or closing.

 

[irishpatrick]

I cannot easily envision a scenario where people would use hate crimes law to force any church into gay marriage. The other situations regarding healthcare are fundamentally different. They involve public funding in the case of adoption. In the case of pharmacists, the law at least in my state does not require any individual pharmacist to act against thier own coscience. What it does do is prohibit pharmacists from actively obstructing patient care or making their own beliefs a patient’s problem. If a particular pharmacist wont’ fill birth control, it’s up to the pharmacy to make sure someone does. The situations that led to these laws passage inevitably involved individual pharmacists who abused their position of power and $100,000 plus jobs to bully patients, usually in a publicly humiliating way.

When it comes to churches handling their own eclesiastical affairs, courts have been very reticent to get involved. If churches could be successfully sued and forced to grant sacrements outside of their forms, surely it would have been done by now by bored atheists, divorced catholics who hadn’t gotten their annulments straight etc. If gays could force churches to do religious weddings, surely it would have been done by now in Canada or the UK, places with much more intrusive and politically correct hate statutes than our own.

Freedom of religion means freedom of religion. The scenarios I presented are perfect examples of people having their religious freedoms taken away.

Yes, courts have been reticent, I agree. But, they won’t be in the near future because gay marriage will be seen as a fundamental civil right enshrined in federal law. There will also soon be a time where people push for any talk against gay marriage to be deemed hate speech…Canada already has that, it will come to the USA soon.

Two gay Catholic men worship at Catholic Church “x.” They go to the Pastor to set-up a date for their wedding. The Pastor denies them saying it is against the faith. The gay couple objects saying that marriage is a fundamental civil right and that Church “X” is demonstrating enormous hate by forcing them to go to some other Church to be married. They sue for millions and win. Than Church “x” gets another lawsuit against it, than another, than another and soon they are sued into compliance or oblivion.

 

[irishpatrick]

Too many Catholics, and really all Christians, have no idea of the nature of the spiritual battle going on.

 

[larkin31]

Too many Catholics, and really all Christians, have no idea of the nature of the spiritual battle going on.

Like I said, you are special.

 

[irishpatrick]

Like I said, you are special.

So, are you saying that you are wholly unaware of the spiritual battle going on around us?

Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.​

 

[larkin31]

Freedom of religion means freedom of religion.

Tautologies are pretty useless.

The scenarios I presented are perfect examples of people having their religious freedoms taken away.

There is no absolute freedom of religion in this country. There are MANY religious things that you cannot do on public land nor with public money. If you do not like this, then you simply don’t appreciate the protections that our Constitution provides.

There are other countries where you can live and the dominant religion gets full state support with public funds. You might find a home there. In this country the answer always is, “If you don’t like it, then don’t take any public money. And don’t otherwise violate any laws.”

Yes, courts have been reticent, I agree. But, they won’t be in the near future because gay marriage will be seen as a fundamental civil right enshrined in federal law. There will also soon be a time where people push for any talk against gay marriage to be deemed hate speech…Canada already has that, it will come to the USA soon.

Canada DOES NOT have this. I just read the law last week. That is a false claim.

I am beginning to think that you consider telling falsehoods (either intentionally or through negligence) are justified by what you consider your righteous purpose.

And you wonder why persons get turned off by stridency?

 

[Los_Angeles]

Too many Catholics, and really all Christians, have no idea of the nature of the spiritual battle going on.

I agree. The end times must be nearer than we think.

Here’s a small list:

-Legal Abortion

-Legal building of mosques over war sites of radical Islamic militants

-Legal Homosexual Marriage

-Legal fiat currency not backed by gold - “monopoly” money

If anything I have said is against the Catholic Church, let it be anathema.

 

[irishpatrick]

Tautologies are pretty useless.

There is no absolute freedom of religion in this country. There are MANY religious things that you cannot do on public land nor with public money. If you do not like this, then you simply don’t appreciate the protections that our Constitution provides.

There are other countries where you can live and the dominant religion gets full state support with public funds. You might find a home there. In this country the answer always is, “If you don’t like it, then don’t take any public money. And don’t otherwise violate any laws.”

Canada DOES NOT have this. I just read the law last week. That is a false claim.

I am beginning to think that you consider telling falsehoods (either intentionally or through negligence) are justified by what you consider your righteous purpose.

And you wonder why persons get turned off by stridency?

Okay, rather than continuing with you on this subject, since you seem strongly attached to your view no matter the evidence, I hope that when you see all of this unfolding you will at least than realize the folly into which you fell.

For my side, I’d very much like to be wrong, I pray I am wrong, so if these things do not come to pass, than I will gladly eat crow and admit I was wrong.

As for Canada, go here: religioustolerance.org/hom_hat6b.htm

Sadly, I know (with every bit of spiritual knowing a person can attain) that these things will indeed happen if we do not halt the insanity THIS VERY YEAR!

I do appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[larkin31]

Okay, rather than continuing with you on this subject, since you seem strongly attached to your view no matter the evidence, I hope that when you see all of this unfolding you will at least than realize the folly into which you fell.

For my side, I’d very much like to be wrong, I pray I am wrong, so if these things do not come to pass, than I will gladly eat crow and admit I was wrong.

As for Canada, go here: religioustolerance.org/hom_hat6b.htm

Sadly, I know (with every bit of spiritual knowing a person can attain) that these things will indeed happen if we do not halt the insanity THIS VERY YEAR!

I do appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut.

Man, you are frustrating.

Did you READ these cases?

The Canadian hate speech case in the Newspaper from the Bible quotes resulted in an acquittal. The Canadian const. protects freedom of religious speech, and all he did was quote Biblical verses. He was convicted earlier, but this was overturned and the standard of protection upheld.

In the second case a man told high school students in Greater Sudbury that homosexuals should be executed. He later repeated the comments when interviewed on a Toronto radio station, saying: that gays should be executed. He did not quote Biblical verses and merely, in a belligerent way, stated that this was his religious conviction. The judge rightly said he was more interested in expressing hate than true religious conviction, particularly since he did this outside of a church, not in a religious setting, and not in a religious context. He simply stated that he thought gays should be killed. Pay up, fool. The law does not protect THAT.

These cases both make my point, precisely. Neither of the cases was about gay marriage: **both were about stating that gays should be killed. ** And one was even determined to be Const. protected!

 

[irishpatrick]

Man, you are frustrating.

What frustrates me are the millions of so-called Christians who cannot discern the anti-family, anti-God, and anti-Church agenda that is being pushed by the left and those who follow the left. I never said those cases were about gay marriage, I simply said Canada passed hate crimes laws that included so-called hate speech against gays. Those are facts, not guesses.

Anyway, since I frustrate you there is likely no need for you and I to continue.

Thanks for the chat.

 

[larkin31]

What frustrates me are the millions of so-called Christians who cannot discern the anti-family, anti-God, and anti-Church agenda that is being pushed by the left and those who follow the left. I never said those cases were about gay marriage, I simply said Canada passed hate crimes laws that included so-called hate speech against gays. Those are facts, not guesses.

Anyway, since I frustrate you there is likely no need for you and I to continue.

Thanks for the chat.

This conversation was about GAY MARRIAGE, not whether it was ok to publicly wish a class of citizens TO DIE.

 

[irishpatrick]

This conversation was about GAY MARRIAGE, not whether it was ok to publicly wish a class of citizens TO DIE.

Yes, and I was asked to explain my reasons for believing as I do…so I provided that explanation, which included topics outside of marriage.

 

[PatrickSebast]

This conversation was about GAY MARRIAGE, not whether it was ok to publicly wish a class of citizens TO DIE.

Which, by the way, is completely against the teachings of the Church. That wasn’t religious speech at all, it was hate speech.

 

[rlg94086]

Which, by the way, is completely against the teachings of the Church. That wasn’t religious speech at all, it was hate speech.

While I agree with your statement, i find it interesting that you would bring up “teachings of the Church.”. Those Catholics who support “gay marriage” don’t seem to care much about the teachings of the Church.

 

[larkin31]

Yes, and I was asked to explain my reasons for believing as I do…so I provided that explanation, which included topics outside of marriage.

The cases had NO topic INSIDE marriage. They were totally unconnected. Irrelevant. If you want to claim that you also think that gays should die, or that persons should be free to public say so without reference to the Bible, then have at it. Right here.

Otherwise, back to gay marriage and whether churches will HAVE TO marry people. Again, there is NO EVIDENCE that anything is moving this way. Not even IN CANADA.

 

[PatrickSebast]

Don’t take my word for it:

Click Here:Father Corapi-Contemporary Attacks on the Family

Click Here:Father Corapi-Wake Up America!

And, most important of all:

Click Here:Father Corapi-New War/Old War

God Bless.
+Jesus, I Trust In You.
Love, Dawn

Father Corapi didn’t say anything in any of those talks that was contrary to what I said. He even has a video on youtube called “fear is useless” which furthers my point that this doom and gloom thing that we have going on in this topic does not fit with Catholic teachings. Again I never said sin wasn’t damaging to society, I agreed that it was. I have no problems with anything Father Corapi said, I am merely contesting the idea that gay marriage is somehow special in that it symbolizes the “End of Christian Civilization.”

 

[DawnInTexas]

Too many Catholics, and really all Christians, have no idea of the nature of the spiritual battle going on.

I have a sister who works as a Librarian in a Catholic University. She said the Franciscans she is around every day leave everything in God’s Hands, and don’t worry about it.

However-they don’t attempt to argue with others that everything is well in the world.

I truly believe the world is sick, and needs the Divine Physician.

Pope Leo XIII’s Vision of the Period Satan was granted a special time to attempt to destroy the Church is coming to an end. It is the End of an Era, not the world.

One of the names is the “Triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary.” Scripture speaks of her heel crushing the head of the Serpent.

Then, the period of peace-where Christ in the Holy Eucharist reigns- where Satan is chained until a short time before the end of the world will follow.

The chain that chains Satan in hell for a thousand years-is the Rosary. Pray it!

God Bless.
+Jesus, I Trust In You!
Love, Dawn

 

[PatrickSebast]

While I agree with your statement, i find it interesting that you would bring up “teachings of the Church.”. Those Catholics who support “gay marriage” don’t seem to care much about the teachings of the Church.

I never claimed any support for Gay Marriage in this or any other thread, I have disputed the quality of the judges decision from a legal basis, but even then I was careful to clarify many times that I was still with the Church on the proper definition of Marriage. I fully support the teachings of the Church even when I don’t understand or agree with them.