Gay marriage... how we ended up where we are

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So I guess a Catholic first coming to this forum (let’s say you) would be more concerned with questions of theology or spirituality. Certainly nothing as grubby as homosexuality. So let’s see what your first post was about:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8989760#post8989760
Just so you know, the whole reason for this forum is to discuss Catholic doctrine, theology, and spirituality. If that upsets you, maybe you should examine why you are posting here.

If you want to check, you can see what Midwest88’s first post was. Click on the name and go to the last page.

It was about Anime and the second was about cosmetic surgery.

It appears that you have linked to his 60th post?
 
Just so you know, the whole reason for this forum is to discuss Catholic doctrine, theology, and spirituality.
Then I suppose that we should not even bring up anything that has to do with science or psychology since all of those things are outside the purview of Catholic doctrine, theology and spirituality. But for some reason you mentioned the DSM and Alfred Kinsey and Sigmund Frued and other things in your initial post that are not related to Catholic doctrine, theology and spirituality. 🤷
 
Please remember that charity is essential to our discussions here. Thank you for your cooperation.
 
**Galnextdoor **

Well , based on your first post in this topic your license should be immediately revoked. 😃 Especially considering your anti-scientific and anti-psychology views. You are a danger to children.

edwest

I repeat my questions.

Does you daughter know you consider her a mentally ill person? Does you daughter know you want to reinstate criminal law against homosexual people? Does your daughter know you would want to remove her child(when she has one) from her and her partner because a family of two “sodomites” is a no place for a child to grow up? I’m just curious considering how brave you are here on this forum in your fierce opposition to the universal declaration of human rights , science, psychology and nature itself.
I don’t have a daughter. Where did I write I “want to reinstate criminal law against homosexual people”? This is not about me.

"4. There are absolutely no grounds for considering homosexual unions to be in any way similar or even remotely analogous to God’s plan for marriage and family. Marriage is holy, while homosexual acts go against the natural moral law. Homosexual acts “close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved”.(4)

"Sacred Scripture condemns homosexual acts “as a serious depravity… (cf. Rom 1:24-27; 1 Cor 6:10; 1 Tim 1:10). This judgment of Scripture does not of course permit us to conclude that all those who suffer from this anomaly are personally responsible for it, but it does attest to the fact that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered”.(5) This same moral judgment is found in many Christian writers of the first centuries(6) and is unanimously accepted by Catholic Tradition.

“Nonetheless, according to the teaching of the Church, men and women with homosexual tendencies “must be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided”.(7) They are called, like other Christians, to live the virtue of chastity.(8) The homosexual inclination is however “objectively disordered”(9) and homosexual practices are “sins gravely contrary to chastity”.(10)”

Regarding children:

“As experience has shown, the absence of sexual complementarity in these unions creates obstacles in the normal development of children who would be placed in the care of such persons. They would be deprived of the experience of either fatherhood or motherhood. Allowing children to be adopted by persons living in such unions would actually mean doing violence to these children, in the sense that their condition of dependency would be used to place them in an environment that is not conducive to their full human development. This is gravely immoral and in open contradiction to the principle, recognized also in the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, that the best interests of the child, as the weaker and more vulnerable party, are to be the paramount consideration in every case.”

Source: vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html

Ed
 
No I did not claim you have an abnormal fear of homosexuals,nor did I claim you dislike Jews.

I was drawing your attention to a certain New Testament passage which some people can only refute by attacking St Paul.I was not referring to you though.
Okay - I thought so. I wasn’t sure if you were comparing me to St. Paul, which would be absurd for various reasons.
 
Well, let’s see if we can work it out. Do you think someone can be described as Catholic if they support SSM, have sex outside marriage, use contraception or have had an abortion?

So I guess a Catholic first coming to this forum (let’s say you) would be more concerned with questions of theology or spirituality. Certainly nothing as grubby as homosexuality. So let’s see what your first post was about:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8989760#post8989760
What poster “galnextdoor” said about my posts. I’m not sure what that reveals about me besides I have a passing interest in anime and I think cosmetic surgery is heartbreaking, with exceptions. Plus why do atheists think that Catholics (we don’t speak for other sects) look at homosexuality - the state of it - as “grubby”? It’s been explained and dealt before many times with much more grace and charitableness than I can articulate and generate. And my first post wasn’t about homosexuality since I remember clearly being active in the “Popular Media” section of CAF later getting into more Catholic doctrine and its place in the world.
 
Just so you know, the whole reason for this forum is to discuss Catholic doctrine, theology, and spirituality. If that upsets you, maybe you should examine why you are posting here.
Upsets me? Lord no. I’m here for the same thing. Well, doctrine in any case.

And let’s try again with Midwest’s first post. It was indeed regarding homosexuality. Pleas excuse me for linking to a late one.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8989760#post8989760

Now about the number of Catholics. I think it’s important to find out the weight of popular opinion amongst Catholics as opposed to what the church teaches. I think it’s important because it gives an indication of how much weight they give to pronouncements from the fair as it one might say.

Do you think that anyone in any of the positions I mentioned earlier are really Catholics? If they are not, then it is hardly fair for me to say that the percentage of Catholics wh osupprt SSM are in the majority.
 
Then I suppose that we should not even bring up anything that has to do with science or psychology since all of those things are outside the purview of Catholic doctrine, theology and spirituality. But for some reason you mentioned the DSM and Alfred Kinsey and Sigmund Frued and other things in your initial post that are not related to Catholic doctrine, theology and spirituality. 🤷
Actually, Catholic doctrine teaches that sodomy is evil. The posts I made were about how the culture came to turn against that teaching of the church.
 
Upsets me? Lord no. I’m here for the same thing. Well, doctrine in any case.

And let’s try again with Midwest’s first post. It was indeed regarding homosexuality. Pleas excuse me for linking to a late one.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8989760#post8989760

Now about the number of Catholics. I think it’s important to find out the weight of popular opinion amongst Catholics as opposed to what the church teaches. I think it’s important because it gives an indication of how much weight they give to pronouncements from the fair as it one might say.

Do you think that anyone in any of the positions I mentioned earlier are really Catholics? If they are not, then it is hardly fair for me to say that the percentage of Catholics wh osupprt SSM are in the majority.
Okay, I can tell you aren’t reading what I’m posting. You keep posting Midwest88’s 60th post even though I explained how to look at his/her first post.

You also keep asking the same questions that I’ve already answered.
 
You keep posting Midwest88’s 60th post even though I explained how to look at his/her first post.
if I select Midwest88’s name , select the option to see all post by him/her, go to the last page of those posts (they appeared to be ordered by timestamp, most recent first) then I see a post with the stamp Feb 21, '12, 6:10 pm on gay marriage. The only 60 I see is in the post I’d in the URI (p=8989760#post8989760). The 60th post I see counting order from oldest to more recent is on an electronic reader (forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=684013 ) with the date stamp Jun 10, '12, 8:46 pm. Not sure what might be different in how the first post is being determined. :confused:

Pardon my mistakes. Sent from a mobile device.
 
Actually, I have a masters degree, too, have studied child development, had numerous psych classes, and attended conference seminars about child abuse and reporting it. I worked for years with very young children, and I was a mandated reporter for child abuse. One of the symptoms they taught us to look for was a very young child exhibiting sexual behavior toward another person.
Up to 80% of children age 11 and younger who exhibit sexual attraction and sexual behavior are victims of child abuse. If not physically abused, they have been exposed to pornography.

If you actually work in a school district, you are a mandated reporter and should know this. Perhaps you could use a refresher course? Or maybe you don’t work with very young children so you didn’t find this part of the training pertinent.

Also, you closed your post with a sentence fragment and a comma splice. If you do work in a school district, I hope you don’t teach English.🤷

I don’t think reading is a subject you should teach either. It doesn’t seem that you can be bothered to actually read what the thread was originally about before posting your opinions using a quote that you have not bothered to read in its entirety.
Wow, just Wow. I understand that you are obviously the empress of all things that are rule driven from the Bible, but have failed to read the Gospels. There is no need, and you would be laughed out of the CPS meeting if you reported abuse because a teenager has gay tendencies such as being either very effeminate or somewhat masculine if female. Yes, It is a stereotype when we use those outward signs, and I am guilty of that. Many parents “know” from the time their child is very young that they might be LGBTQ and once again that is not reportable, just a fact of life. Your assertion that humans “become” gay because of outside influences is beyond comprehension and very similar to those who refuse to look at recent research and still think that autism is caused by a distant mother figure. When exactly did you decide to be a straight person? I certainly don’t have a memory of choosing to be straight. At least young adults, including my 30 year old daughter, have grown up with far less fear and loathing of those different than the norm. They are the HOPE for us a humans.
I apologise profusely for my grammar and typos. No, I was a behavior specialist and had a caseload of 28 students who were considered at-risk. The majority were kids from 3 different gangs. I helped other teachers with behavior plans and classroom control issues.
 
if I select Midwest88’s name , select the option to see all post by him/her, go to the last page of those posts (they appeared to be ordered by timestamp, most recent first) then I see a post with the stamp Feb 21, '12, 6:10 pm on gay marriage. The only 60 I see is in the post I’d in the URI (p=8989760#post8989760). The 60th post I see counting order from oldest to more recent is on an electronic reader (forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=684013 ) with the date stamp Jun 10, '12, 8:46 pm. Not sure what might be different in how the first post is being determined. :confused:

Pardon my mistakes. Sent from a mobile device.
This is really off topic, but…

I explained how get to the first post of a poster to Bradski. The newest post are displayed first. The oldest are displayed last. Go to the last page and look at post #1. #1 is the person’s first post. #60 is the person’s 60th post. Bradski keeps mistakenly posting Midwest88’s 60th post because he thinks it is the poster’s 1st post. I don’t want to assume anything, but what I infer is that Bradski is trying to say it’s hypocritical for Midwest88 comment on an atheist making his first post about gay marriage, because Bradski thinks that Midwest88’s post #60 is post #1.
 
Wow, just Wow. I understand that you are obviously the empress of all things that are rule driven from the Bible, but have failed to read the Gospels. There is no need, and you would be laughed out of the CPS meeting if you reported abuse because a teenager has gay tendencies such as being either very effeminate or somewhat masculine if female. Yes, It is a stereotype when we use those outward signs, and I am guilty of that. Many parents “know” from the time their child is very young that they might be LGBTQ and once again that is not reportable, just a fact of life. Your assertion that humans “become” gay because of outside influences is beyond comprehension and very similar to those who refuse to look at recent research and still think that autism is caused by a distant mother figure. When exactly did you decide to be a straight person? I certainly don’t have a memory of choosing to be straight. At least young adults, including my 30 year old daughter, have grown up with far less fear and loathing of those different than the norm. They are the HOPE for us a humans.
I apologise profusely for my grammar and typos. No, I was a behavior specialist and had a caseload of 28 students who were considered at-risk. The majority were kids from 3 different gangs. I helped other teachers with behavior plans and classroom control issues.
Okay. I’ll ignore what I assume is your attempt at an insult towards me. I’m guessing your derogatory remark stems from the fact that I believe in Sodom and Gomorrah and follow what the Catholic Church teaches. This is, after all, a Catholic website, so I don’t understand why your upset about that. As for the Gospels, Jesus did not come to abolish the laws of old, but to fulfill what the prophets had said. (Matthew 5)

Romans 1:24-32 speaks disparagingly of lesbian and gay sexual acts. Should we vote to have that removed from the bible?

Your original quotes were about very young children. If you read my quotes, which again it appears that you haven’t, I said children 11 and under. Now you are changing the subject and talking about teenagers.

I never asserted that people become gay from outside influences, although, in some instances that I have first hand knowledge of, that has been the case. If these cases upset you because they don’t fit with what the lemmings of society dictate, what can I say? They are what they are.

Sex outside marriage and sodomy are wrong.

It is not a sin to be attracted to the same sex; it’s a sin to act on it.

The rest of your post seems to be meandering around comparing something that is scientific and concrete “autism” with “mothers just know”. Believe me there is no comparison. I have a child with Autism. There are many concrete, measurable tests that are used to determine whether a three year old child has Autism. As a behaviorist, you should be aware of the battery of tests that are given to determine whether a young child has Autism i.e. the Vineland Adaptive Behavioral Scales, the Stanford-Binet, the Woodcock-Johnson Cognitive Adaptability test and various other criteria. By the way, autism runs in my family. I have three nephews that have autism, as well as my son.

Please name the test that identifies very young children who are gay. That’s who we have been posting back and forth about. I would be very interested in reading the questions that are asked.

Please don’t try to cite anecdotal information about toys as a reason, because that dog wont hunt. They make pink guns for girls, pink swords, pink remote control cars, pink building blocks etc. Girls who play football are not going to grow up to be lesbians because they play football. Please don’t talk about dresses.

Growing up, I didn’t know any girls who liked to wear dresses. There is nothing like getting your dress caught on a slide and having it pulled up over your head to make you not want to wear a dress. (I speak from personal experience.:D) Also, dresses are horrible on jungle gyms. (The other kids run under you and say "I see Spain, I see France, I see ----------'s underpants.) If you have to wear shorts under a skirt as a child, why not just wear the shorts?

I am really sorry that you are in such a quandary about what the Catholic Church teaches and your personal feelings. I will pray for you.
 
There are many concrete, measurable tests that are used to determine whether a three year old child has Autism. As a behaviorist, you should be aware of the battery of tests that are given to determine whether a young child has Autism
Why do you trust these tests devised by psychiatrists and psychologists to test for Autism but you don’t trust their opinion that homosexuality does not meet the criteria for being a mental illness?

I must admit that I don’t have a very high opinion of psychiatry or psychology since most of what is in the DSM describes symptoms but has no sound scientific explanations for what causes most of these conditions. They just know what pills to give people to counteract the symptoms. I myself have been diagnosed with ADHD (Predominantly Inattentive Type) but psychologists and psychiatrists really have no idea what causes this condition and no fool proof way to test for it either. I dare say that I know more about ADHD than the psychiatrist who diagnosed me which doesn’t give me much confidence in psychiatrists. If you want to read what a mess psychiatry is in and how little psychiatrists really know about the conditions they treat, you should read the book Unhinged: The Trouble with Psychiatry - A Doctor’s Revelations About a Profession in Crisis (Free Press, 2010) by Dr. Daniel Carlat who was chief resident in the psych ward at Massachusetts General Hospital and is now a Professor of Psychiatry at Tufts University in addition to having his own private practice.
 
Why do you trust these tests devised by psychiatrists and psychologists to test for Autism but you don’t trust their opinion that homosexuality does not meet the criteria for being a mental illness?

I must admit that I don’t have a very high opinion of psychiatry or psychology since most of what is in the DSM describes symptoms but has no sound scientific explanations for what causes most of these conditions. They just know what pills to give people to counteract the symptoms. I myself have been diagnosed with ADHD (Predominantly Inattentive Type) but psychologists and psychiatrists really have no idea what causes this condition and no fool proof way to test for it either. I dare say that I know more about ADHD than the psychiatrist who diagnosed me which doesn’t give me much confidence in psychiatrists. If you want to read what a mess psychiatry is in and how little psychiatrists really know about the conditions they treat, you should read the book Unhinged: The Trouble with Psychiatry - A Doctor’s Revelations About a Profession in Crisis (Free Press, 2010) by Dr. Daniel Carlat who was chief resident in the psych ward at Massachusetts General Hospital and is now a Professor of Psychiatry at Tufts University in addition to having his own private practice.
I am certain that that the APA does not form opinions but conducts interviews and performs research regarding homosexuality. Their non-scientific vote under pressure by radical gay activists and closeted gays in the APA in 1973 does not qualify as the final word as to making a diagnosis.

amazon.com/Homosexuality-American-Psychiatry-Politics-Diagnosis/dp/0691028370

Ed
 
I am certain that that the APA does not form opinions but conducts interviews and performs research regarding homosexuality. Their non-scientific vote under pressure by radical gay activists and closeted gays in the APA in 1973 does not qualify as the final word as to making a diagnosis.

amazon.com/Homosexuality-American-Psychiatry-Politics-Diagnosis/dp/0691028370

Ed
If you think that the APA is only swayed sometimes by outside interests on an issue like homosexuality, you are mistaken. The same thing applies to other things as well, including Autism and ADHD (Attention Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder). They’ve changed the way that Autism is classified and how ADHD is diagnosed. More than anything else, psychiatry is beholden to the pharmaceutical industry (Big Pharma). They’ve make it easier, for example, to diagnose for ADHD, especially in adults, something Big Pharma has been pushing for years so that they can expand the market for stimulants like Adderall and Vyvanse and even Ritalin. This change is worth millions and millions of dollars to the pharmaceutical industry. I’m not saying that changes like this might not help some people with ADHD, for example, who need it, but it’s also not true that such decisions only get made based on science in most cases or that the decision to remove homosexuality from the DSM was an unusual exception.
 
If you think that the APA is only swayed sometimes by outside interests on an issue like homosexuality, you are mistaken. The same thing applies to other things as well, including Autism and ADHD (Attention Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder). They’ve changed the way that Autism is classified and how ADHD is diagnosed. More than anything else, psychiatry is beholden to the pharmaceutical industry (Big Pharma). They’ve make it easier, for example, to diagnose for ADHD, especially in adults, something Big Pharma has been pushing for years so that they can expand the market for stimulants like Adderall and Vyvanse and even Ritalin. This change is worth millions and millions of dollars to the pharmaceutical industry. I’m not saying that changes like this might not help some people with ADHD, for example, who need it, but it’s also not true that such decisions only get made based on science in most cases or that the decision to remove homosexuality from the DSM was an unusual exception.
Let’s move forward to 2013 and see similar results regarding Transgendered persons:

“Whereas previously a man who “self-identified” as a woman (or vice versa) could have been classified as mentally ill, now the DSM-5 uses the term “gender dysphoria,” which means it is only a mental illness if you’re troubled by this self-identification. Elated activists in the “LGBT” community had lobbied the APA for the change for years.”

Lobbying for a diagnosis change? That’s not rational.

Ed
 
Lobbying for a diagnosis change? That’s not rational.

Ed
And of course it’s not only LGBT activists who lobby the APA for changes. You should check out all the slick lobbyists from big pharmaceutical companies who wine and dine psychiatrists at their annual convention or pay them to tout the newest wonder drug to get their colleagues to prescribe it even though it’s no better than the old wonder drug which has gone generic but is a lot more expensive. :rolleyes:
 
And of course it’s not only LGBT activists who lobby the APA for changes. You should check out all the slick lobbyists from big pharmaceutical companies who wine and dine psychiatrists at their annual convention or pay them to tout the newest wonder drug to get their colleagues to prescribe it even though it’s no better than the old wonder drug which has gone generic but is a lot more expensive. :rolleyes:
Please don’t ignore the topic. I’m aware of what psychiatrists experience. All the drugs I’ve been prescribed are generic and are more symptom specific and effective than 10 years ago.

Ed
 
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