Gay 'marriages'?

[retina_md]

BobCatholic:

There’s a difference between VALIDATING a marriage and MAKING a marriage.

Government should have NO ROLE in making a marriage. Validating a marriage, on the other hand, is a different topic.

We I agree with you on this point, but from a practical point of view, the government has and will continue to marry people. The Justice of the Peace thing. For some, marriage is a contract and the public official officiates over the pronouncement of the contract.

 

[Richard_Lamb]

Stop changing our institutions…If you want to live toghter in sin that is between you and God…I you want to sign a legal contract to that effect, so be it…

But Marriage is a holy sacred God intituted institution, and it was made to be between a Man and a Woman…God created Adam and Eve:yup: not Adam and Steve:nope:

And commanded them to multiply,last i checked the pipping did not line up on same sex relations…Even when they try to reengenires Gods work it never does quite work right…

 

[BobCatholic]

Shibboleth:

In Las Vegas I can gamble, visit a prostitute, and get married while ridding a bicycle all in the same day without breaking any laws. Apparently these are not as hot of issues to the Catholic Church as two loving individuals that would like to have some of the same rights afforded to them as heterosexual couples.

Vegas is a great reason why the government should NOT be in the business of making marriages. These quickie marriages usually wind up in divorce just as quickly.

 

[BobCatholic]

retina_md:

We I agree with you on this point, but from a practical point of view, the government has and will continue to marry people. The Justice of the Peace thing. For some, marriage is a contract and the public official officiates over the pronouncement of the contract.

Ah, but if we use that “seperation of church and state” strategy that SeKKKularists have been beating over our heads with all these years, we can make the argument that the state has no place in performing an activity that is under the purview of religion: Marriage.

We don’t do state-sponsored baptisms, confirmations, minister ordinations, etc, all because of “seperation of church and state” why not also “marriage” added to that list?

 

[DenRat]

From previous post: “But all that aside, this movement does not weaken the sanctity of marriage. For those of you out there that are married… have the new rulings in Massachusetts in any way made your marriage any less sanctimonious? Is the bond between you any lessened or are you not totally of one flesh anymore? When your children get married in the future will it mean less now than it did with your Grandparents?”

Now my comments: Allowing homosexuals to “marry” does harm our society and the institution of marriage in the same way “no-fault” divorce has harmed our society and the institution of marriage (this stemming from contraception and abortion). As someone else pointed out, we have moved in increments to this point in time to where too many people accept this. We have come to the point that anything goes as long as no one gets hurt by it.

When divorce became commonplace what happened? Children suffered. People started living together to “try it out” before marriage. The whole idea of “til death do us part” has become foreign in our society.

If so many men and women validly married in the Church today won’t make a go of it, do you actually think homosexuals will fare any better when they aren’t even receiving God’s grace of the sacrament of holy matrimony?

Denise

 

[phatcatholic]

Same-Sex Marriages
–Marriage and the Complementarity of Male and Female
–Answering Advocates of Gay Marriage
–One Man, One Woman
–Prepare Yourself for the Marriage Debate
–Protecting the Traditional Definition of Marriage in Canada
–Statement on the Status of Marriage in Canada
–The Case Against Same-Sex Marriage
–Why Not Gay Marriage? An Exchange
–Gay Marriage: Reimagining Church History
–Same Sex Marriage: Should We Allow Gay Rights Activists to Cross The Last Cultural Frontier?
–Homosexual Marriage-The Marginalization of Women and the Family
–Gay Marriage: Not A Very Good Idea
–The Knot that Can’t Be Tied
–Statement on Same-Sex Marriage
–Gay Marriage and the Collective Lie

for more on the christian family and holy matrimony, go here
for the entire reference section at phatmass.com, go here

pax christi,
phatcatholic

 

[JimG]

The government has historically provided economic benefits to marriage because marriage was considered beneficial to society. Married couples, after all, beget and raise the next generation of citizens, without which the nation would soon die out. It also provides the next generation of taxpayers, who often finance the current generation’s spending! Social Security, for example, is only a nationalization of the old method whereby each generation cared for their parents in their old age. The millions of future taxpayers lost to abortion means that Social Security is now less fiscally viable—fewer workers to support their elders.That’s what happens when the elders had fewer children!

But there is no reason for the government to favor unions which are not beneficial to society, and are in fact damaging to society.

A further thought: Heterosexuals have been busily deconstructing marriage over the past 70 years or so all on their own; homosexuals are now trying to extend that deconstruction a little further.

We began by approving artificial contraception, thereby breaking the link between marriage and procreation. Once that link was broken, it was a small step to de-linking marriage and sex, and since marriage was not necessary for sex, why not just live together or just engage in casual sex? This helped break the link between commitment and marriage, leading to no fault divorce, so either party can just leave at any time for any reason. In the end, having tossed out commitment, responsibility, and procreation, marriage became just a matter of being able to file a joint return and obtain health benefits. Is it any wonder that gays now want the same thing?

 

[Ken]

**DenRat wrote:

"Now my comments: Allowing homosexuals to “marry” does harm our society and the institution of marriage in the same way “no-fault” divorce has harmed our society and the institution of marriage (this stemming from contraception and abortion). As someone else pointed out, we have moved in increments to this point in time to where too many people accept this. We have come to the point that anything goes as long as no one gets hurt by it. "**

OK. Exactly what is the harm? Perhaps the same harm comes from no fault divorce and gay marriage. But exactly what is that harm?

 

[srkbdk]

DenRat wrote:

"Now my comments: Allowing homosexuals to “marry” does harm our society and the institution of marriage in the same way “no-fault” divorce has harmed our society and the institution of marriage (this stemming from contraception and abortion). As someone else pointed out, we have moved in increments to this point in time to where too many people accept this. We have come to the point that anything goes as long as no one gets hurt by it. "

OK. Exactly what is the harm? Perhaps the same harm comes from no fault divorce and gay marriage. But exactly what is that harm?

Do you believe there is a hell?

Do you want anyone to goto hell?

The real harm is it makes the road to hell eaiser than it already is.

We should love our brothers and sisters enough to help them with the problem by being honest it is a problem not by condoning a problem that leads them to hell.

 

[Ken]

srkbdk:

Do you believe there is a hell?

Do you want anyone to goto hell?

The real harm is it makes the road to hell eaiser than it already is.

We should love our brothers and sisters enough to help them with the problem by being honest it is a problem not by condoning a problem that leads them to hell.

That’s a good argument for those who believe in hell and see it as an outcome of gay marriage.

But if one doesn’t believe that, then exactly what is the harm? What is the harm to society? Are there any married people here who will divorce if gay marriages take place? Are existing marriages now threatened? Are divorce lawyers about to make a windfall? Is marriage such a fragile institution that it can’t survive gay marriage? If so, why is it so fragile? Is Catholic marriage a fragile institution, too?

 

[srkbdk]

Ken:

That’s a good argument for those who believe in hell and see it as an outcome of gay marriage.

But if one doesn’t believe that, then exactly what is the harm? What is the harm to society? Are there any married people here who will divorce if gay marriages take place? Are existing marriages now threatened? Are divorce lawyers about to make a windfall? Is marriage such a fragile institution that it can’t survive gay marriage? If so, why is it so fragile? Is Catholic marriage a fragile institution, too?

The harm is this I am a divorced man that has an annulment, however when people first found out there were problems the overriding advice was it is ok and get a good lawyer. I was outside the Church at that time and took that advice. It was over so quick there was no real time to consider what was happening.

In this country we have hacked away at the instution of marriage making it mean less and less. In the process countless lives have been harmed for life. I have two boys from that union and they every day pay the price for my mistake. They do not have what they could have had if we had found a way to make it work. They spend part of their time with her and part of their time with me, and that may not seem like much but talk to a 14 year old that is trying to believe in the importance of family. Money that could have went into a college fund has gone to lawyers, a second home, a second car, two ovens, two tv’s, etc. These are all things that would not have been needed if the marriage would have be worked out, or if we would have been taught the proper meaning of marriage prior to entering into that union.

Look today at the number of young people in our nations criminal instutions and the rise of crime and see how many of them come from broken homes. Sit with some of them and listen as they tell you the life they grew up with. It is a shame to think we can pursue only our own desires and to hell with anyone that gets in our way including our children. Gay marriages is just one more attack on this institution that will further erode it to the point of just connivance, and who pays the price? Not us but our children and their children.

I am very blessed to be in the Church to have an annulment and to be able to talk to my children, but come over some time and listen to my son talk about his concern for his friends whose parents are on a third or fourth marriage.

Will it undermine my marriage yes it will not because of my, my wife’s or my Church’s commitment to it no, but it will undermine it by allowing socity to say your having problems with your marriage, whats the big deal just give up and go on to something else that is more fun.

God Bless and have a great day

 

[Ken]

srkbdk:

The harm is this I am a divorced man that has an annulment, however when people first found out there were problems the overriding advice was it is ok and get a good lawyer. I was outside the Church at that time and took that advice. It was over so quick there was no real time to consider what was happening.

In this country we have hacked away at the instution of marriage making it mean less and less. In the process countless lives have been harmed for life. I have two boys from that union and they every day pay the price for my mistake. They do not have what they could have had if we had found a way to make it work. They spend part of their time with her and part of their time with me, and that may not seem like much but talk to a 14 year old that is trying to believe in the importance of family. Money that could have went into a college fund has gone to lawyers, a second home, a second car, two ovens, two tv’s, etc. These are all things that would not have been needed if the marriage would have be worked out, or if we would have been taught the proper meaning of marriage prior to entering into that union.

Look today at the number of young people in our nations criminal instutions and the rise of crime and see how many of them come from broken homes. Sit with some of them and listen as they tell you the life they grew up with. It is a shame to think we can pursue only our own desires and to hell with anyone that gets in our way including our children. Gay marriages is just one more attack on this institution that will further erode it to the point of just connivance, and who pays the price? Not us but our children and their children.

I am very blessed to be in the Church to have an annulment and to be able to talk to my children, but come over some time and listen to my son talk about his concern for his friends whose parents are on a third or fourth marriage.

Will it undermine my marriage yes it will not because of my, my wife’s or my Church’s commitment to it no, but it will undermine it by allowing socity to say your having problems with your marriage, whats the big deal just give up and go on to something else that is more fun.

God Bless and have a great day

What did gay marriage have to do with your divorce? I see no connection.

How will gay marriage make more heterosexual couples divorce? I can see how the huge increase in the granting of Cathoilc annulments could lead to more divorce, but what is the connection between heterosexual divorce and gay marriage?

Are there legions of spouses just waiting to divorce so they can marry their same sex honey?

 

[srkbdk]

Ken:

What did gay marriage have to do with your divorce? I see no connection.

How will gay marriage make more heterosexual couples divorce? I can see how the huge increase in the granting of Cathoilc annulments could lead to more divorce, but what is the connection between heterosexual divorce and gay marriage?

Are there legions of spouses just waiting to divorce so they can marry their same sex honey?

You are missing my point the point I am trying to make is that society needs to support marriage. In the past marriage meant something to the whole of society and when there was a problem with a marriage people tried to help. We as a people no longer help people who’s marriage is in trouble other than to give them the name of a good divorce lawyer. If we allow Gay marriages it weakens the institution of marriage even further by making it mean even less. Yes allowing Gay marriages will lead to an increass in the divorce rate not because one guy wants to marry another guy, but because the marriage will mean even less then it does now.

We as Catholics should work with our faith as a guide to build up a society not stand by and watch it destroy itself.

As far as the Church handing out annulments I know three people right now that have been told there marriage was valid, one has (thanks to God ) reconclied the other two are bearing this cross, and are an inspiriation to me.

By the way Ken are you Catholic?

Thanks for the conversation.

 

[srkbdk]

By the way Ken your argument was also used by people that wanted to make birth control legal. Do you agree that there is a correlation between birth control and the divorce rate?

 

[Ken]

srkbdk:

You are missing my point the point I am trying to make is that society needs to support marriage. In the past marriage meant something to the whole of society and when there was a problem with a marriage people tried to help. We as a people no longer help people who’s marriage is in trouble other than to give them the name of a good divorce lawyer. If we allow Gay marriages it weakens the institution of marriage even further by making it mean even less. Yes allowing Gay marriages will lead to an increass in the divorce rate not because one guy wants to marry another guy, but because the marriage will mean even less then it does now.

We as Catholics should work with our faith as a guide to build up a society not stand by and watch it destroy itself.

As far as the Church handing out annulments I know three people right now that have been told there marriage was valid, one has (thanks to God ) reconclied the other two are bearing this cross, and are an inspiriation to me.

By the way Ken are you Catholic?

Thanks for the conversation.

1. In that case society could support both straight and gay marriage as people support the marriages of all others. All the energy going into the gay marriage struggle could be better mobilized in support of all marriages.
2. To whom will marriage mean less?
3. Catholic US annulments were about 300/year in 1960. Today they are about 22,000/year. Now, I can see how that does lead to divorce.

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

Ken:

The point SRKBDK is trying to make, I think, is that the legalization of gay “marriage” actually cheapens the whole idea of marriage, which has always been recognized as an at least semi-permanent union between a man and a woman.
In other words, if marriage is anything, then its really nothing.

If we allow gays to marry, who are we to probibit polygamy, incest, beatiality, ephebophelia, etc? As long as no one gets hurt, why not?

As to how this might contribute to divorce . . .

In the opinion of many, the recognition of gay marriage would foster a false view of matrimony, and would do nothing but contribute to the number of people marrying for the wrong reasons.
Gays claim that they should be allowed to marry because they “love” each other.

“Love,” in terms of romantic or erotic love, is actually a very shallow reason for getting married. As most modern marriages are built on this shallow foundation, they are very quick to crumble.

The chief end of marriage is not a groovy feeling or good sex (good though these may be!); it is the propogation of children, and thus the building up of society. There is a common good to be served, first and foremost before individual goods. We Christians take this end even further: the purpose of marriage is to populate heaven! Marital love normally brings forth children, whose salvation the parents are to try to bring about; these Christian children will contribute to the common good in such a way that more will be brought to eternal salvation.

True love, love in its highest form, is not romantic, but sacrificial. It lasts, even in those times when those groovey, romantic feelings cease. Its a genuine care for the good of another, the ultimate good being salvation.

Evils like homosexual sex and artificial contraception make please an end-unto-itself with regards to the sexual act. Legalizing gay marriage would make emotional satisfaction an end-unto-itself with regard to mariage, more so than it already is.

Maybe someone can articulate this better than I.

Pax.

 

[Praise_Singer]

I head a suggestion somewhere that if the State is making gay marriages legal, then the Church should refuse to make civil marriages. You go to the justice of the peace and get your civil union/marriage, and go to Church to receive the sacrament.

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

I head a suggestion somewhere that if the State is making gay marriages legal, then the Church should refuse to make civil marriages. You go to the justice of the peace and get your civil union/marriage, and go to Church to receive the sacrament.

That makes absolutely no sense.

A marriage is either a marriage, or it isn’t.

Thats why the Church sondiers it sinful to go through any type of marriage ceremony after one has already gone through a lawful, valid marriage.

Its like trying to get yourself rebaptized. Its blasphemy.

 

[AmandaPS]

Also, if someone is married outside the Church, isn’t there a procedure to go through before being it can be considered sacramental and receive communion?

I guess what I’m also saying is just because the state sees something as legal, doesn’t make it so in the eyes of the Church. ie: abortion.

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

The only people required by the Church to have a “Church Marriage” are Catholics.

Otherwise, what you right is absolutely correct.