Gay Masses Continue in Archdiocese of Westminster

[Adam1986]

The point being that you already have a mass tailored for you, and I have a mass tailored for me. It is called the mass. Our faith is about unity, not arbitrary division.

Well for one, no where in that article does it say that a straight person or a married person can’t go. There is no “gay” bouncer going to be outside checking to see if you are gay or not. Also, how do you feel about teenager only Masses?

 

[po18guy]

What is your feeling on a teenager only Mass then?

Are you equating SSA to a human developmental stage? No! Why does anyone need to be surrounded by only those whose sin is a particular one? Especially if they are celibate and understand that SSA is their cross to bear. Christ ministers to all souls. And, if you are celibate, why does anyone need to know that you have SSA?

 

[po18guy]

What’s wrong with there being a mid-week Mass for this issue?

What is so special about SSA that it needs separation from others? The Church seeks not that you separate yourself, but that you join with all sinners. Is SSA somehow superior in some regard to other crosses to bear? Sin is sin. There is no heaven for SSA, only for Saints. Neither is there hell for SSA, only for sinners.

 

[Adam1986]

Are you equating SSA to a human developmental stage? No! Why does anyone need to be surrounded by only those whose sin is a particular one? Especially if they are celibate and understand that SSA is their cross to bear. Christ ministers to all souls. And, if you are celibate, why does anyone need to know that you have SSA?

No they are apples and oranges. Different but still round. And if there is a Mass for teens or single people or divorced people why not one for gays?

“Why does anyone need to be surrounded by only those whose sin is a particular one?”
Because that way a person who is dealing with this issue can look around and say “Hey I’m not the only one like this. If these people can be chaste, then you know what so can I!”

“And, if you are celibate, why does anyone need to know that you have SSA?”
No one needs to know it, but there’s nothing wrong with it. So there’s nothing to hide.

 

[po18guy]

No they are apples and oranges. Different but still round. And if there is a Mass for teens or single people or divorced people why not one for gays?

Teenage and marital status are not sins or disorders, but a verifiable physical status. Alcoholism is a sin if indulged in and is a disorder. Thievery is a sin if indulged in and is a disorder. Spousal abuse is a sin if engaged in and is a disorder. And, yes, SSA is a sin if indulged in and a disorder. All disorders and their associated sins are a result of our fallen human nature. Unity, not separation.

Because that way a person who is dealing with this issue can look around and say “Hey I’m not the only one like this. If these people can be chaste, then you know what so can I!”

Like AA, it is not the focus of the mass. It is ideal for support groups.

No one needs to know it, but there’s nothing wrong with it. So there’s nothing to hide.

SSA, by itself, is not sinful. This is not endorsement, but acknowledgment. If there was nothing sinful with indulging it, the Church would marry you to another of your own gender. But, rather than hiding it, many are proclaiming it - to what purpose? This desire to proclaim it points only to the nature of the disorder itself. Would it not be better to control this desire to proclaim a disorder? We divide - we separate ourselves from our brothers and sisters by proclaiming our particular disorder.

 

[mdgspencer]

In the middle of paragraph five of the article on the OP–“the masses are specifically used to undermine Catholic teaching.”

Can I please ask you to quote where it says that these gay people are against what the Catholic Church says and are having sex?

I don’t remember reading that. But if I missed that then I don’t think the Catholic Church should have a Mass for them. But I still stand by my opinion that the Catholic Church should be happy to provide a Mass for chaste gay people.

 

[Newbie2]

A homosexual Mass is a great thing.

The Mass doesn’t celebrate being gay. It’s just a Mass for those who are gay. There’s a HUGE difference.

What’s wrong with there being a mid-week Mass for this issue?

What is your feeling on a teenager only Mass then?

Are you equating SSA to a human developmental stage? No! **Why does anyone need to be surrounded by only those whose sin is a particular one? **Especially if they are celibate and understand that SSA is their cross to bear. Christ ministers to all souls. And, if you are celibate, why does anyone need to know that you have SSA?

Well, sin or disordered temptation.

Look, if there were a “gay” mass held for, say, a weekend retreat or at a “homosexual chastity conference” or whatever, I doubt many people would have a problem with that.

However, having regular masses for any group of people who have their own particular temptation or disorder defeats the purpose of the mass. The liturgy is the work of the people, not just the homosexual people or the alcoholic people or the fornicating people or whatever people.

So when someone says, well, other people can come to a “homosexual mass”, that is being intellectually dishonest. Of course anyone could attend, but the purpose of such a mass is to be selective in who attends, namely homosexual persons i.e. those with a sinful disorder or who are tempted toward a sinful disorder.

Why is this different than “teenage” masses or “Italian” mass? That should be self-evident. Being teenaged or Italian is not a disordered temptation.

 

[Adam1986]

Teenage and marital status are not sins or disorders, but a verifiable physical status. Alcoholism is a sin if indulged in and is a disorder. Thievery is a sin if indulged in and is a disorder. Spousal abuse is a sin if engaged in and is a disorder. And, yes, SSA is a sin if indulged in and a disorder. All disorders and their associated sins are a result of our fallen human nature. Unity, not separation.
** And if it’s not indulged, then there’s no reason why the Catholic Church can’t celebrate a Mass dedicated to those who ARE chaste. **

Like AA, it is not the focus of the mass. It is ideal for support groups.
** Who said that would be the focus? I just said that someone would be able to look around and not feel alone for doing what the Church teaches. There’s a difference between a support group and a feeling of community. Don’t you think if there were a Mass for single chaste people some people in attendance would look around and say “Hey all these people are chaste. You know what I can be too!” ? **

SSA, by itself, is not sinful. This is not endorsement, but acknowledgment. If there was nothing sinful with indulging it, the Church would marry you to another of your own gender. But, rather than hiding it, many are proclaiming it - to what purpose? This desire to proclaim it points only to the nature of the disorder itself. Would it not be better to control this desire to proclaim a disorder? We divide - we separate ourselves from our brothers and sisters by proclaiming our particular disorder.

** Why not proclaim it? It is who a person is. And just having those feelings is completely fine and sinless.
Please explain your reasoning on the desire to proclaim it points only to the nature of the disorder itself.
Why not control it AND be aloud to be who you are with out hate? **

 

[Adam1986]

In the middle of paragraph five of the article on the OP–“the masses are specifically used to undermine Catholic teaching.”

Thank you for saying that. I’ll have to go back and read the article again since I obviously missed that part.

But to me that quote seems like the author’s opinion on the Masses not something that the Mass is billed as. I could be wrong. Like I said I didn’t remember reading it. I will re-read and then re-comment.

 

[Corki]

** Why not proclaim it? It is who a person is. And just **having those feelings is completely fine ****and sinless.
Please explain your reasoning on the desire to proclaim it points only to the nature of the disorder itself.
Why not control it AND be aloud to be who you are with out hate?

Stop saying that. “Having those feelings” is NOT completely fine. It is objectively disordered.

This has nothing to do with hate. Having compassion and accepting is one thing. Celebrating a disorder is something else entirely. That’s exactly the kind of event that leads people to wrongly think it’s “completely fine”.

 

[Michael6]

I think being gay is from the heart, being homosexual has to do with mentality of the subject. Being gay is fine. Having sex is homosapian and not Catholic. Two must have sex to become one.

 

[Adam1986]

Well, sin or disordered temptation.

Look, if there were a “gay” mass held for, say, a weekend retreat or at a “homosexual chastity conference” or whatever, I doubt many people would have a problem with that.
** After reading some responses here, I doubt that. Just my opinion though. **

However, having regular masses for any group of people who have their own particular temptation or disorder defeats the purpose of the mass. The liturgy is the work of the people, not just the homosexual people or the alcoholic people or the fornicating people or whatever people.
** Why does it? One of the purposes of the Mass is to strengthen your faith. Help you get closer to God. Wouldn’t someone who according to the Catholic Church can never even go on a date or kiss need all the help they can get and maybe need an extra Mass a week? Why not have one that is “dedicated” to them? Let them feel like the Church, that is so hard on what they can and can’t do, is trying to help them? Let them feel the love of the Catholic Church saying “Hey, we’re here for you. We’re here to help you abstain. You’re not alone. You don’t need to go and have sex to feel love. You have the love here.” **

So when someone says, well, other people can come to a “homosexual mass”, that is being intellectually dishonest. Of course anyone could attend, but the purpose of such a mass is to be selective in who attends, namely homosexual persons i.e. those with a sinful disorder or who are tempted toward a sinful disorder.

** Not really, have you ever been to a children’s or teen Mass? I know of people who attend those Masses because that’s the best time for them and they are adults. No one cares. **

Why is this different than “teenage” masses or “Italian” mass? That should be self-evident. Being teenaged or Italian is not a disordered temptation.

** You know people keeping bringing that up, but you have nothing to back up the reasons against having a Mass for chaste gay people except that you are at least slightly against and have ANGER towards gay people. Please tell me if I’m wrong though. **

 

[Adam1986]

Stop saying that. “Having those feelings” is NOT completely fine. It is objectively disordered.
** Yes it is completely fine. According to the Catholic Church it’s only a sin if you ACT ON THEM. Not if you have them. Who are to say that someone is not a good person or a holy person because of the way GOD MADE THEM? Or that they have some mental disorder?

Saying that it’s not OK to just have those feelings is what causes absolute torture for some gay people especially young gay people. **

This has nothing to do with hate. Having compassion and accepting is one thing. Celebrating a disorder is something else entirely. That’s exactly the kind of event that leads people to wrongly think it’s “completely fine”.

** IF you don’t act on it, then the Catholic Church does say it is completely fine. How are you being accepting if you are against a Mass that helps CHASTE gay people fight their urges? **

 

[Corki]

** IF you don’t act on it, then the Catholic Church does say it is completely fine. **

Show me any official Church document that says what you claim.

On the other hand, the Catechism of the Catholic Church says it’s disordered even if you don’t act on it:

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

 

[Michael6]

** IF you don’t act on it, then the Catholic Church does say it is completely fine. How are you being accepting if you are against a Mass that helps CHASTE gay people fight their urges? **

Being Gay comes from Christianity, Catholicism embraces Christianity. One must look to the Christian church for help.

 

[Adam1986]

In the middle of paragraph five of the article on the OP–“the masses are specifically used to undermine Catholic teaching.”

OK so the whole quote is
“Daphne McLeod, head of the Catholic organisation Pro Ecclesia et Pontifice, confirmed that the Masses have continued unabated and are indeed specifically being used to undermine Catholic teaching and as a platform to promote the homosexual political agenda in the Church. Pro Ecclesia continues to hold prayer vigils for “reparation” outside the church while the Masses are being held.”

That is Daphne McLeod’s OPINION. Why are you trying to pass off someone’s opinion as better then what the archdiocese says?

Also see in the above paragraph
“The Archdiocese included a disclaimer that the Masses would be offered on the understanding that the ‘Mass is not to be used for campaigning for any change to, or ambiguity about, the Church’s teaching’.”

So you want to take the word of some lady over the word of the ARCHDIOCESE? Who do you think is more qualified to make a decision about if the Mass is a good idea or not?

 

[Adam1986]

Show me any official Church document that says what you claim.
** I can’t show you because I don’t have copies of the catechism and other Church documents laying around. But go and ask a priest if it’s OK to be gay and NOT ACT ON IT. Ask a priest if a gay person is not an OK person, a good person, a holy person just because of whom they are attracted to? The Catholic Church teaches that these feelings are from God and cannot be changed AND that there is nothing wrong with the feelings. Just if you act on it.**

On the other hand, the Catechism of the Catholic Church says it’s disordered even if you don’t act on it

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
:

** I will quote from Courage
"It is important to remember that “objective disorder” is a philosophical term which describes a particular inclination - it does not diminish our value and worth in the eyes of God.

It is psychologically understandable that certain people struggle with homosexual attractions. The Church recognizes this and does not condemn people for simply having these attractions" ← Which you can equate to no sin and something that is not a sin is fine. **

 

[Corki]

** I will quote from Courage
"It is important to remember that “objective disorder” is a philosophical term which describes a particular inclination - it does not diminish our value and worth in the eyes of God.

It is psychologically understandable that certain people struggle with homosexual attractions. The Church recognizes this and does not condemn people for simply having these attractions" ← **

You are very confused. You are not differentiating between the value of persons and the qualitative nature of their inclinations. Even very good people can suffer from disorders. As your Courage quote correctly states, the term “disordered” applies to the condition, not the person. But it still applies.

Of course homosexuals are good people. Of course they have value and worth in the eyes of God. That doesn’t mean that the disordered inclinations are completely fine.

Which you can equate to no sin and something that is not a sin is fine.

Being not sinful is not the same thing as “completely fine”. For example, being disabled is not sinful but it’s not “fine”; being poor is not sinful but it is not “fine”; being enslaved is not sinful but it is not “fine”.

BTW, the CCC is available free online.

 

[Corki]

Being Gay comes from Christianity

No. It comes from man’s fallen nature.

Catholicism embraces Christianity.

Catholicism IS Christianity.

One must look to the Christian church for help.

Agreed.

 

[Adam1986]

You are very confused. You are not differentiating between the value of persons and the qualitative nature of their inclinations. Even very good people can suffer from disorders. As your Courage quote correctly states, the term “disordered” applies to the condition, not the person. But it still applies.

Of course homosexuals are good people. Of course they have value and worth in the eyes of God. That doesn’t mean that the disordered inclinations are completely fine.
The inclination then may not be fine. But the person is. So therefore there is no problem with having a Mass for the PERSON and for helping the PERSON with a Mass then.

Being not sinful is not the same thing as “completely fine”. For example, being disabled is not sinful but it’s not “fine”; being poor is not sinful but it is not “fine”; being enslaved is not sinful but it is not “fine”.

BTW, the CCC is available free online.

Thanks for the resource man. I may go and check that out.