Gay Masses Continue in Archdiocese of Westminster

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Adam1986,

I sympathize with you for your struggle. There are very loud voices telling you that the Church is wrong and that you should be proud to be gay and that you should be able to marry a man and adopt children. Those voices must make it hard for you to accept chastity. Despite the “spiritual but not religious” poster’s advice; the Church will help you live your best life(and an eternal one at that).
 
We don’t want to be thought of as anything special. Just equal. There are very few gay people who want to have to “need” special treatment. We just want everyone to treat us as they would treat any straight person. With love, honor, and respect.
Okay, there. Great start. No one else has a regular Mass based on their sexual partner choice. No one has a Mass based on the sin they struggle with. Go to Mass with the rest of us.

I think you are being incredibly naive if you don’t see this as a political statement of potential acceptance of the gay lifestyle by the Church. It’s also an incredibly bad idea to put a bunch of people struggling with a sin that needs partners together in a situation that some could be seen as an opportunity to pair up with the Church’s blessing.
 
This article is from a couple of years ago. From what I have heard about Archbishop Nichols, I would be surprised if he were to knowingly allow this sort of thing to continue.
 
Also, the idea that one “must” be public, if gay, is absurd. Mass is a liturgical event, not a social event. Yes, many people bring their families, but so do many people who have families not bring those families. Examples would be parents who tag-team babysitting so that both can attend Mass; couples where one of them has a schedule that prevents both attending Mass together; couples where one member is a practicing Catholic, the other a fallen-away Catholic or a follower of a different religious tradition; divorced people who have not remarried; a widow or widower whose children have grown. (Should we cast “suspicious eyes” on the latter, “assuming” that surely the single widow or widower is gay/lesbian just because he or she is alone?)

Oh, but wait, I forgot: There’s a section in the Mass where we all “partner-up” just to identify “who we really are.”

In my town it is more of an exception to the “rule” that a straight family will actually be showing up, together, for the same Mass. A divorced woman might show up with her youngish looking mother. I don’t assume they’re lesbians; nor do such 2 women act “ashamed” and “self-conscious” as if everybody is looking at them. This whole “must-come-out” trend is pure projection. No one is demanding that you “come-out” in Mass if you’re gay. It would be rather inappropriate, in fact.
To expand on this: the only way children are going to get to mass is if their famillies bring them - it’s unavoidable that families will appear together. As much as he would enjoy the challenge, I’m not going to hand the car keys to the eight-year-old.
 
Important point of posting to pay attention to here: Be sure that in quoting, you don’t insert your own text into someone else’s quote. See Post #25 where in bold it looks as if I said what was written; I didn’t.

I realize that when you’re new to the forum it’s hard to master all the techie stuff – I still don’t know myself how to do multiple quotes from different posts with text between. But proofread when your post is displayed to catch things that could be misinterpreted, OK?

Use of boldface in someone else’s quote is fine IMO as long as it’s their words you are bolding so that the reader can find which part of the quote you are addressing in your own post.

Thanks for taking care of this in the future.:compcoff:
 
Also, the idea that one “must” be public, if gay, is absurd. Mass is a liturgical event, not a social event.
ideally, perhaps. but in practice, homosexuals report that they are not well-received/do not feel welcome/are looked upon with suspicion/etc. at mass. i’m not talking about showing up to mass with one’s homosexual partner. i’m talking about joining a church as a single childless person. i’m talking about the fact is that choosing to live life as a single adult without romantic companionship and children is not a sin but is still an alternative lifestyle that raises questions in people’s minds. you have no sensitivity to the fact that there are different issues for a catholic with ssa than for a catholic with all the other sorts of issues you mentioned that can be kept private.

anyway, this thread is too depressing for me (though not as bad as all those threads about the poor teenage boys made to feel shame and fear of god’s punishment for masturbating). i’ll be unsubscribing from this thread.

thanks for the conversation
rocinante
 
I don’t see anything wrong with that at all.
It is wrong. The people who attend these Masses are homosexuals. There is nothing intrinsically wrong in that. However, a significant majority of them freely admit to being in a relationship with another person of the same sex. They admit to being in full relationships, including sexual relations. That is a mortal sin. These same Mass goers receive Holy Communion. People who are in a state of mortal sin should not receive Holy Communion.
 
The Seattle Archdiocese had this same problem in the 1980s. It went along until word of it reached Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. Due to numerous and profound problems within the Diocese, Seattle Archbishop Hunthausen was stripped of his powers and Archbishop Donald Wuerl was sent in to shepherd the Diocese. And, just as His Holiness has recently sent Seattle a blessed new Archbishop, he will certainly take action where needed in Westminster.
Well nothing has been done about the situation in Westminster. An organisation called Pro Ecclesia et Pontifice says a Rosary of Reparation outside the church where these two Masses are celebrated twice a month. They instigated a campaign asking people to write to the Archbishop of Westminster and to Rome. Many, many letters were sent. The Church’s response has been a deafening silence.
 
People go to mass to celebrate their identity as Catholics, not to celebrate their sexual orientation. Such divisions can only lead to trouble.
Unfortunately, in this case they are celebrating their sexual orientation. For example, the priest announces if any of them have had a Civil Partnership (a civil arrangement in the UK where two people of the same sex can have their relationship recognised and registered by the state) and everyone is asked to clap and cheer them.
 
ideally, perhaps. but in practice, homosexuals report that they are not well-received/do not feel welcome/are looked upon with suspicion/etc. at mass. i’m not talking about showing up to mass with one’s homosexual partner. i’m talking about joining a church as a single childless person. i’m talking about the fact is that choosing to live life as a single adult without romantic companionship and children is not a sin but is still an alternative lifestyle that raises questions in people’s minds. you have no sensitivity to the fact that there are different issues for a catholic with ssa than for a catholic with all the other sorts of issues you mentioned that can be kept private.

anyway, this thread is too depressing for me (though not as bad as all those threads about the poor teenage boys made to feel shame and fear of god’s punishment for masturbating). i’ll be unsubscribing from this thread.

thanks for the conversation
rocinante
Well, unsubscription or not, I cannot let these remarks go unattended. It is entirely a fabrication, in the modern world, that is. Nor can I accept that my region is rather unusual, as I have done, and still do, a considerable amount of traveling, outside of my area, to other standard parishes.

Most people in my region do not show up as even couples, let alone with children, necessarily. That includes the most “orthodox,” conservative parish in my area, which is quite traditional, has two Latin Masses per Sunday, and in most other ways resembles the parishes of many, many decades ago – including many women wearing headcoverings. There are a few large families, with small children, that show up all together on Sundays, but that would be at the most 15% of the parish attendance for any given Sunday Mass. (I’ve been to all of them.) If there were any even subtle questioning of one’s status, orientation, lifestyle, etc., one would expect it to be present there, and it is nowhere to be found – including in parish dinners and social events close in time to the Masses themselves (no gossip, no rejection), Even further is there no ostracization. Who would they ostracize? There are countless “single, childless persons” registered (and even just visiting or attending) at this most traditional parish. No one raises a single eyebrow, including the very holy, charitable priests in residence there. Now, naturally if a person were gay and were to show up with a partner, and he or she were showing overt physical affection to said partner during Mass, then theoretically eyebrows could be raised, but you just admitted that you’re not talking about such a scenario. So there is no issue. Thousands of people register privately every year, in parishes all across the country, as simply a member of the parish. No inference can be drawn about orientation, just because they’re single. They could have had an annulled marriage, they could be divorced, never-married by choice (even if straight), or widowed. They could have minor children, be childless, or have grown children (natural or adopted). It’s a total red herring to be stating that the parish administrators care, first of all (including the pastor), let alone that it would necessarily be that any parishioner would care as to status or lifestyle, or immediately demand such private information upon being formally introduced to a new parishioner. Further, lots of people register quietly and even attend church functions, but never reveal anything about themselves – even though I might happen to know that some of these people are quite straight & live conventional lifestyles. Nobody interrogates them, or necessarily assumes that they must be gay if answers are absent or vague.

As has been noted on other threads, the Catholic population is essentially a reflection of the modern American social world: the multiplication of single households, small households, separated households, divorced households, and combined households of many types – such as “boomerang” grown children who have returned home (and who may or may not be practicing Catholics attending Mass). There is a microcosm of that in every single Catholic parish that I know of. People show up at the above traditional parish in enigmatic groups; you can’t always even tell if they’re related: there might be 4 or 5 adults, not necessarily of different generations, so you can’t assume that grandparents are accompanying to Mass. It could be the family’s neighbors! It’s not necessarily their 'gay relatives." Nobody would spend time wondering about who they were and what kind of life they lived.
 
Well, unsubscription or not, I cannot let these remarks go unattended. It is entirely a fabrication, in the modern world, that is. Nor can I accept that my region is rather unusual, as I have done, and still do, a considerable amount of traveling, outside of my area, to other standard parishes.

Most people in my region do not show up as even couples, let alone with children, necessarily. That includes the most “orthodox,” conservative parish in my area, which is quite traditional, has two Latin Masses per Sunday, and in most other ways resembles the parishes of many, many decades ago – including many women wearing headcoverings. There are a few large families, with small children, that show up all together on Sundays, but that would be at the most 15% of the parish attendance for any given Sunday Mass. (I’ve been to all of them.) If there were any even subtle questioning of one’s status, orientation, lifestyle, etc., one would expect it to be present there, and it is nowhere to be found – including in parish dinners and social events close in time to the Masses themselves (no gossip, no rejection), Even further is there no ostracization. Who would they ostracize? There are countless “single, childless persons” registered (and even just visiting or attending) at this most traditional parish. No one raises a single eyebrow, including the very holy, charitable priests in residence there. Now, naturally if a person were gay and were to show up with a partner, and he or she were showing overt physical affection to said partner during Mass, then theoretically eyebrows could be raised, but you just admitted that you’re not talking about such a scenario. So there is no issue. Thousands of people register privately every year, in parishes all across the country, as simply a member of the parish. No inference can be drawn about orientation, just because they’re single. They could have had an annulled marriage, they could be divorced, never-married by choice (even if straight), or widowed. They could have minor children, be childless, or have grown children (natural or adopted). It’s a total red herring to be stating that the parish administrators care, first of all (including the pastor), let alone that it would necessarily be that any parishioner would care as to status or lifestyle, or immediately demand such private information upon being formally introduced to a new parishioner. Further, lots of people register quietly and even attend church functions, but never reveal anything about themselves – even though I might happen to know that some of these people are quite straight & live conventional lifestyles. Nobody interrogates them, or necessarily assumes that they must be gay if answers are absent or vague.

As has been noted on other threads, the Catholic population is essentially a reflection of the modern American social world: the multiplication of single households, small households, separated households, divorced households, and combined households of many types – such as “boomerang” grown children who have returned home (and who may or may not be practicing Catholics attending Mass). There is a microcosm of that in every single Catholic parish that I know of. People show up at the above traditional parish in enigmatic groups; you can’t always even tell if they’re related: there might be 4 or 5 adults, not necessarily of different generations, so you can’t assume that grandparents are accompanying to Mass. It could be the family’s neighbors! It’s not necessarily their 'gay relatives." Nobody would spend time wondering about who they were and what kind of life they lived.
elizabeth, i could be wrong not being catholic, but i had understood that through church membership parishioners are generally looking for fellowship and a sense of community rather than the “mind your own business” atmosphere of the “no questions asked” masses you describe where no one knows anything about anyone else, wants to know others, or wants to be known by others. the picture you paint of catholic community looks stark and lonely and doesn’t seem to recognize the humanity of parishioners in the least.

all, is this quote above really what catholic churches are like? is there no sense of community? no one notices when when someone always shows up alone even to try to befriend them? no one cares if you have children or not? no one is at all interested in whether you are widowed, divorced, married, never married? everyone just tries not assume anything at all about everyone else and ask no questions so you can all remain in public isolation?
 
I will supplement my last post by adding that the only eyebrows raised I have ever seen at the aforementioned quite-buttoned-down parish has been in relation to a mother & grandmother with children, since the mother refuses to discipline said children, who run around the church barefoot when they do attend. Decorum has a certain value in this parish, at liturgies. People expect a universal reverence to be shown.

It happens to be that the gay men that I personally know, would fit remarkably well into the aforementioned traditional parish, as they happen to like decorum and ritual, and many gay men are exceptionally polite, as society goes. For all I know, there may be many gay men attending those Masses. As Catholics struggling with the same temptations against chastity that the rest of us also struggle with, they would fit right in at this very traditional parish, which offers daily confessions, including during all Sunday Masses.
 
elizabeth, i could be wrong not being catholic, but i had understood that through church membership parishioners are generally looking for fellowship and a sense of community rather than the “mind your own business” atmosphere of the “no questions asked” masses you describe where no one knows anything about anyone else, wants to know others, or wants to be known by others. the picture you paint of catholic community looks stark and lonely and doesn’t seem to recognize the humanity of parishioners in the least.
Not stark and lonely. Respectful. Only in the modern world is it assumed that disclosing private business about oneself is something that one should both be entitled to divulge at all times, and additionally be demanded by others as a condition of membership in a communal worship service.
is there no sense of community? no one notices when when someone always shows up alone even to try to befriend them?
They do befriend them. But that friendship doesn’t demand disclosures of sexual habits. The first rule of friendship is respect. You can be truthful without revealing every controversial or embarrassing, or just private, piece of personal information. For example, I am discreet about what I mention to others when first meeting them. In some cases there are some controversial aspects to my past, which I don’t care to share with a virtual stranger upon first meeting that person. They might misunderstand, it might cause unnecessary scandal, even though none of that has anything to do with my (hetero)sexual orientation.
no one cares if you have children or not?
If it’s important to you, you’ll mention that you have children (not with you, grown, at home being tended to by a relative, etc.) If you bring it up, they will be interested. If it’s not interesting to you as a subject of conversation (even if you have children), I personally have never seen any other parishioner pry and demand information. Again, there are so many single people showing up to church alone, they would spend a hell of a lot of time asking questions instead of enjoying the fellowship.
no one is at all interested in whether you are widowed, divorced, married, never married? everyone just tries not assume anything at all about everyone else and ask no questions so you can all remain in public isolation?
No one’s isolated, unless you want to be. It’s the person’s choice to be isolated. The fellowship is not dependent on knowing more details than the person cares to divulge. The fellowship is based on liking, or getting to know, you as a person, as a member of the parish with your own integrity. You are first of all brothers and sisters in Christ, even before you are someone’s significant other, parent, etc. That’s the approach that’s taken to fellow parishioners.

If, gay or straight, married or single, you were to show up childless to an event expressly for children, people might ask where your children are. OTOH, if it’s billed as a “family” event, generally (I’ve found) all are welcome, whether or not you bring even one relative. It just means that it is not an ‘adult-only’ event.

At this parish, I’m loved for having the dignity of being a child of God, not for any particular status or lack of status. As is everyone else.

Hope that helps.
 
Finally – and then I’ll get off this thread for awhile because I don’t like to overpost and I need to get to work – I think this is an important thing to say publicly:

Anyone – like myself – who has had extremely close, celibate friendships with people in religious life, or in training for religious life, really does understand this, because they’ve experienced this. It’s refreshing and deepening to be able to know someone utterly without reference to sexual interaction between the two of you – gay or straight. To call this just “Platonic,” is perhaps not doing it justice. (It makes it sound cold or ‘neutralized.’) it is more like a profound brother-sister kind of experience, with deep religious overtones to the relationship. Intimate, affectionate, and deeply trusting, without sexual expression.

Sex has its proper place in the human experience, but invading every aspect of one’s daily existence is a distortion of its value and proportion, even among balanced non-believers. That’s where I think the modern preoccupation, both with heterosexuality and homosexuality, has brought about distortion of experience, expectation, and perspective. I’m not just meaning physical acts – as if homosexuals are more “physical” than heterosexuals, as I think that’s a stereotype. (There are extremes in both orientations.) I’m talking about the artificial domination of sexual politics in every aspect of life, including on Sunday.

God loves you not firstly as a sexual being but as a whole human being who is first of all oriented (naturally) to Him, not to or against a particular sexual attraction. That’s the wholeness that he offers us to remember and celebrate at Sunday Mass.
 
Well nothing has been done about the situation in Westminster. An organisation called Pro Ecclesia et Pontifice says a Rosary of Reparation outside the church where these two Masses are celebrated twice a month. They instigated a campaign asking people to write to the Archbishop of Westminster and to Rome. Many, many letters were sent. The Church’s response has been a deafening silence.
In the Seattle Diocese in the 1980s, the deafening silence was actually the calm before the storm. And, then the storm restored the calm. Have patience, as Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger steamed full -speed in the Port of Seattle with his toolbox at the ready.
 
It is wrong. The people who attend these Masses are homosexuals. There is nothing intrinsically wrong in that. However, a significant majority of them freely admit to being in a relationship with another person of the same sex. They admit to being in full relationships, including sexual relations. That is a mortal sin. These same Mass goers receive Holy Communion. People who are in a state of mortal sin should not receive Holy Communion.
I don’t think we can make an objective statement that mortal sin exists without more information.
 
In the Seattle Diocese in the 1980s, the deafening silence was actually the calm before the storm. And, then the storm restored the calm. Have patience, as Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger steamed full -speed in the Port of Seattle with his toolbox at the ready.
Well I do not know how long he took because this has been happening since Cardinal Ratzinger was at the CDF and Cardinal Murphy-O’Connor was Archbishop of Westminster. Since then Cardinal Ratzinger has become Pope and Cardinal Murphy-O’Connor has retired and has been replaced by Archbishop Nicholls. Nicholls has given his approval to these Masses. This situation has been going on for years, it is not a recent phenomenon.

I think it is just another example of standards slipping in the Catholic Church. I have nothing at all against homosexuals. But, if you do not want to be in a state of mortal sin you cannot engage in homosexual sexual activities. We should not make rash judgement against any one. Ordinarily I cannot sit in the pew at church, happen to glance over at someone, and think that person is in a state of mortal sin. However, many of the congregants at these Westminster Masses are openly flaunting their sexual lives thus it is well-known that they are engaging in acts which the Church teaches is mortal sin. This is causing grave scandal to the Church.

The Archbishop-in-Ordinary of the see where this is happening has been informed. He should have acted to put a stop to this grave scandal and re-inforced the teaching of the Catholic Church. He has taken no action.

As he is also the metropolitan the only possible route of appeal was to Rome. They should have acted by now. Grave scandal is being caused to the Church.

We should also approach this from an alternative angle. These homosexuals who are in a state of mortal sin hear nothing from the pulpit about chastity and continence and the dangers of mortal sin. Their souls are in grave danger and the Church is doing nothing to help save these souls.
 
Well I do not know how long he took because this has been happening since Cardinal Ratzinger was at the CDF and Cardinal Murphy-O’Connor was Archbishop of Westminster. Since then Cardinal Ratzinger has become Pope and Cardinal Murphy-O’Connor has retired and has been replaced by Archbishop Nicholls. Nicholls has given his approval to these Masses. This situation has been going on for years, it is not a recent phenomenon.
What each of us can do in the meantime is to pray, both for those in a state of mortal sin, as well as for the increasing visibility of pastoral care from the Church hierarchy. Here is a good sign, especially for the embattled American Church:

thebulletin.us/articles/2010/10/10/news/nation/doc4cb21e7b1805c458814059.txt

She is a big ship and takes time to turn round. Let us use that time in prayer, as God is in charge of all things.
 
Finally – and then I’ll get off this thread for awhile because I don’t like to overpost and I need to get to work – I think this is an important thing to say publicly:

Anyone – like myself – who has had extremely close, celibate friendships with people in religious life, or in training for religious life, really does understand this, because they’ve experienced this. It’s refreshing and deepening to be able to know someone utterly without reference to sexual interaction between the two of you – gay or straight. To call this just “Platonic,” is perhaps not doing it justice. (It makes it sound cold or ‘neutralized.’) it is more like a profound brother-sister kind of experience, with deep religious overtones to the relationship. Intimate, affectionate, and deeply trusting, without sexual expression.

Sex has its proper place in the human experience, but invading every aspect of one’s daily existence is a distortion of its value and proportion, even among balanced non-believers. That’s where I think the modern preoccupation, both with heterosexuality and homosexuality, has brought about distortion of experience, expectation, and perspective. I’m not just meaning physical acts – as if homosexuals are more “physical” than heterosexuals, as I think that’s a stereotype. (There are extremes in both orientations.) I’m talking about the artificial domination of sexual politics in every aspect of life, including on Sunday.

God loves you not firstly as a sexual being but as a whole human being who is first of all oriented (naturally) to Him, not to or against a particular sexual attraction. That’s the wholeness that he offers us to remember and celebrate at Sunday Mass.
Your posts are very good and true.

I think there is entirely too much information and interest about people’s sexuality in the media propoganda.

I don’t need to know what anyone prefers sexually. Hopefully, they can keep this to themselves and deal with it. I’d much rather know someone intellectually, spirtually or just have fun doing things together. Sex is a very private matter and it should only be discussed and practiced with one’s partner privately.

I really think sexuality of any kind should be placed firmly back into the closet.
 
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