Gay rights activists protest N. California mall

[Cor_Cordis]

Same sex attraction seems to be biologically determined, or at least it is an inherent disposition, but that doesn’t mean it is genetically determined. It is certainly robust against environmental pressure. Just think how hard society has tried to stamp it out without any success. Even today, most people with same sex attraction would gladly trade it for opposite sex attraction in order to better fit into society.

I believe the desire for intimacy is strong enough to overpower a person’s inherent sexuality. For example, victims of sexual abuse often get very confused about their sexuality. If the abuser is of the opposite sex, they may develop an aversion to the opposite sex and seek out same sex partners in order to satisfy the need for an intimate relationship. If the abuser is the same sex, they may be confused if they received intimacy and pleasure from the encounter and so come to associate that with the gender of the abuser.

It is not as simple as you would like it to be. That’s why you have to remember that every person is a beloved child of God and it is not our place to judge or condemn them.

There’s no predominant evidence that homosexuality is biologically influenced at all.

It’s certainly possible. But there is no clear evidence that it is more so than it is environmentally influenced.

How do you explain cultures where homosexuality does not exist?

 

[bellasbane]

There’s no predominant evidence that homosexuality is biologically influenced at all.

It’s certainly possible. But there is no clear evidence that it is more so than it is environmentally influenced.

How do you explain cultures where homosexuality does not exist?

Despite the headline, the study you linked to does not actually claim homosexuality does not exist in these cultures, it says it is unknown in these cultures. Just because a culture doesn’t have a label for something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

The researchers are relying on self-reports. They are not actually observing behavior. In a culture where “sex” is strictly defined as coitus for the purpose of making babies and the category of homosexual doesn’t exist, then it is really hard to figure out what is actually going on.

Furthermore, the article doesn’t say whether kissing, hugging and other forms of intimate touching are also regarded as “sexual” in these cultures.

 

[Tigg]

We have to learn to accept people with respect, compassion, and sensitivity even if they have a “disordered inclination”. It’s tough for them, but its tough for us too. Where do we begin?

It seems that only once we have purified our own hearts and minds can we move on to the task of convincing people to live a life of chastity. My guess is that at the very least, this means we need to resist the impulse to marginalize or demonize people based solely upon their sexual orientation. That’s really the only message I’m trying to get across…….

Christians do stand and defend biblical/church teaching and are quite zealous about it, but their understandable reaction is to the imminent danger homosexuality imposes upon our society, especially our children. I often think we forget there are two distinct groups we are speaking to. To the Christian, of course, we might persuade them with God’s truth in the matter, but to non-believers I doubt there is any way to convince them to lead a life of chastity except by a conversion to faith or fear of the unhealthy consequences of their lives. They seem unaware of the physical, emotional, and spiritual damage they do to themselves by an unnatural and perverted sexual lifestyle. What a shame, for in their blindness they see us as intolerant and hateful, when in fact, true charity encompasses a desire to see others whole and integrated according to God’s design and to save them from self-destruction.

I don’t think same sex couples are trying to push their agenda on the rest of us, but I understand why you might feel that way.

Actually, we are in for the fight of our life. From the media, TV shows, commercials (have you seen the new one ?) publications, schools (they start at kindergarten now) and the courts, the message is everywhere that Christians must be the ones to change their bigoted views, and be tolerant and accepting, not so much of the homosexual human persons themselves, (they aren’t concerned with the image and likeness of God) but of their deviance. In a word, they advocate social engineering designed to mock and relegate my belief system to an inconsequential component.

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

Dr Fitzgibbons believes it is predominantly (if not exclusively) “nurture”.

From what I’ve read of Dr. Fitzgibbons; he has a difficult time distinguishing correlation from causation.

They seem unaware of the physical, emotional, and spiritual damage they do to themselves by an unnatural and perverted sexual lifestyle. What a shame, for in their blindness they see us as intolerant and hateful, when in fact, true charity encompasses a desire to see others whole and integrated according to God’s design and to save them from self-destruction. Actually, we are in for the fight of our life. From the media, TV shows, commercials (have you seen the new one ?) publications, schools (they start at kindergarten now) and the courts, the message is everywhere that Christians must be the ones to change their bigoted views, and be tolerant and accepting, not so much of the homosexual human persons themselves, (they aren’t concerned with the image and likeness of God) but of their deviance. In a word, they advocate social engineering designed to mock and relegate my belief system to an inconsequential component.

Its astounding to me that Christians question why their methods aren’t very effective when it comes to the gay community. I often wonder if they hear what they’re saying. As another poster noted, the choice of language is not conducive to ministering; at least if you’re expecting to convert someone.

 

[Cor_Cordis]

Despite the headline, the study you linked to does not actually claim homosexuality does not exist in these cultures, it says it is unknown in these cultures. Just because a culture doesn’t have a label for something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist…

Oh for cripes sake.

Should we parse the meaning of what the word “is” is?

Seriously?

So the simple people are either too stupid to understand the meaning conveyed by the researchers, or the simple people are lying.

Meanwhile back in our hyper-gay-sensitive ultra-tolerant “civilized” society, in most media driven studies, homosexuality is given every biological benefit of the doubt (and then some) in order to prevent any ones feelings from getting hurt.

facepalm:doh2:

 

[Cor_Cordis]

From what I’ve read of Dr. Fitzgibbons; he has a difficult time distinguishing correlation from causation.

And based on your expertise and vast clinical experience in this field, you are comfortable pointing that out to the good doctor based on these articles.

I see.

 

[epan]

Let me know when science has actually discovered the elusive gay gene(s).

And no, he’ll never receive a Nobel Prize. These days, that’s reserved for liberal-progressives who accomplish basically nothing other than fostering popular agendas. Like Al Gore and Obama.

Be suspicious of theories that claim biological evidence, where none has been found.

I must say that, I am not quite so cynical.

Do you really believe that the Nobel Prize in Medicine is awarded based on politics or ideology? I think that claim may sometimes be made of the Peace Prize, and sometimes the Literature Prize. I disagree with you on the prizes for science and medicine. If Dr. Fitzgibbon has solved this riddle, then he has solved it not just for homosexuality, but also for heterosexuality and bisexuality. So, I don’t see how such a finding would be political. It would improve our understanding of everyone. Regardless, it would be a great achievement.

I knew a psychologist who told me that the theory of psychoanalysis really was full of beans, but as a working therapeutic model, it could get great results. A lot of that goes on in behavioral science. People apply models which they believe from education, training and experience to work, even if they don’t know how they work. Try reading the PDR on psychotropic drugs sometimes, you often read that the mechanism by which the drug works is not understood. It is just known to work, by changing this or that, in the body. And often there is a theory as to how or why.

I will say this about the possible biological evidence for sexuality. There are many tantalizing clues. I don’t have the expertise to really know what they add up to. But the entire question is fascinating, and as long as people are having sex and falling in love, researchers will be trying to understand it better.

Consider for a moment, that if not for an affair which Adolf Hitler’s grandmother had, Hitler may never have developed such animosity for Jews. When one considers the tremendous achievements toward ill. What if that genius had been channeled toward good, instead. Sex is a very powerful drive. It has changed history many times.

 

[Cor_Cordis]

Its astounding to me that Christians question why their methods aren’t very effective when it comes to the gay community. I often wonder if they hear what they’re saying. As another poster noted, the choice of language is not conducive to ministering; at least if you’re expecting to convert someone.

Yeah.

It’s difficult to convince a narcissistic personality whose entire being is defined by their enslavement to their sexual perversion that they may… have a problem.

Funny that.

 

[Cor_Cordis]

I must say that, I am not quite so cynical.

Do you really believe that the Nobel Prize in Medicine is awarded based on politics or ideology? I think that claim may sometimes be made of the Peace Prize, and sometimes the Literature Prize. I disagree with you on the prizes for science and medicine.

I will say this about the possible biological evidence for sexuality. There are many tantalizing clues. I don’t have the expertise to really know what they add up to. But the entire question is fascinating, and as long as people are having sex and falling in love, researchers will be trying to understand it better.

Consider for a moment, that if not for an affair which Adolf Hitler’s grandmother had, Hitler may never have developed such animosity for Jews. When one considers the tremendous achievements toward ill. What if that genius had been channeled toward good, instead. Sex is a very powerful drive. It has changed history many times.

In this day and age of the “settled” science of Global Warm… er make that Climate Change?

Yes. Yes I am cynical.

 

[Cor_Cordis]

I will say this about the possible biological evidence for sexuality. There are many tantalizing clues. I don’t have the expertise to really know what they add up to. But the entire question is fascinating, and as long as people are having sex and falling in love, researchers will be trying to understand it better.

Correction. Most (if not all) of what you have read is agenda driven by a hopelessly left-leaning media, and fostered by a immoral society.

 

[bellasbane]

Oh for cripes sake.

Should we parse the meaning of what the word “is” is?

Seriously?

So the simple people are either too stupid to understand the meaning conveyed by the researchers, or the simple people are lying.

Meanwhile back in our hyper-gay-sensitive ultra-tolerant “civilized” society, in most media driven studies, homosexuality is given every biological benefit of the doubt (and then some) in order to prevent any ones feelings from getting hurt.

facepalm:doh2:

I’m not saying they are either simple or stupid. As the author of the article points out, they are simply not a WEIRD society (i.e., Western, Educated, Industrialized, Rich, and Democratic). Therefore, we really can’t make claims about human nature based on a comparison of the two cultures.

Plus, most scholars agree that in our society, less than 10% of the population is gay or lesbian, with the actual number probably around 4% or 5%. According to the article, in these cultures each person knows about 400-500 individuals. 5% of 500 is only 25 people - and that is spread out across all generations. Its not hard to keep only 25 people in the closet, especially in a culture that places such a high emphasis on procreation.

I’m sorry if that makes you frustrated!

 

[epan]

Correction. Most (if not all) of what you have read is agenda driven by a hopelessly left-leaning media, and fostered by a immoral society.

I guess I have two questions, and please don’t take offense. But are you a psychotherapist? You are throwing out diagnostic terms, which would suggest to me some formal training in the topics.

Correct me, if I am wrong. But my understanding of a narcissistic personality disorder is that it is driven by a compensation for low self esteem, which drives the patient to create a grandiose self image. In order to maintain that defense, then the narcissist will be surrounded by people who support the fantasy. It is probably the most successful personality disorder in our society, and one of the tougher ones to treat. When narcissists decompensate, it is not pretty. It is very painful for them.

Now, it is my understanding that the incidence of narcissism is higher in the homosexual population. This would be expected, considering the self esteem issues that they sometimes deal with. My understanding is also the instances of borderline personalities among men is far more prevalent among homosexuals. Otherwise, the majority of borderline personality disorders tend to be female.

But, I don’t think that there has been a causal relationship found, yet.

What exactly was your point about narcissism and homosexuality?

 

[epan]

I’m not saying they are either simple or stupid. As the author of the article points out, they are simply not a WEIRD society (i.e., Western, Educated, Industrialized, Rich, and Democratic). Therefore, we really can’t make claims about human nature based on a comparison of the two cultures.

Plus, most scholars agree that in our society, less than 10% of the population is gay or lesbian, with the actual number probably around 4% or 5%. According to the article, in these cultures each person knows about 400-500 individuals. 5% of 500 is only 25 people - and that is spread out across all generations. Its not hard to keep only 25 people in the closet, especially in a culture that places such a high emphasis on procreation.

I’m sorry if that makes you frustrated!

I believe that you are referring to the cultural bias that a researcher carries along, when trying to understand other cultures.

On a personal note, I attended a Japanese elementary school. There were four Caucasians in the entire school, one of them my own brother. All of the other students and the instructors were Japanese. It was an outstanding education. I completed a year of algebra by sixth grade. A year of college calculus by the end of 8th grade. But man, was I a fish out of water. Even the food in the cafeteria was foreign to me. I recall feeling very embarrassed one day in fifth grade. The teacher made a joke about getting rice stuck in one’s nose. The entire class laughed. I just sat there perplexed. I learned on that day, one of many lessons, on the importance of cultural perspective.

That was a long way, by example, to illustrate that it is sometimes quite difficult even to know what people mean, if you do not understand the culture, or you bring a cultural bias along (which we all must). I understand the Japanese much better now than I did then, but I still don’t get the rice joke that every other 10 year old understood at the time. I actually understand the phenomenon that the teacher was referring to at the time, but I don’t get the humor.

With the actual study you refer to, it is also good to remember that people adapt. Gay people have kids too. I can prove it by looking in the mirror. And, yes. I am a biological child, not adopted.

 

[Cor_Cordis]

I’m not saying they are either simple or stupid. As the author of the article points out, they are simply not a WEIRD society (i.e., Western, Educated, Industrialized, Rich, and Democratic). Therefore, we really can’t make claims about human nature based on a comparison of the two cultures.

What?

Actually, we can make a significant comparison and deduction: They haven’t been tainted with the moral relativism of western society.

Which is the exact point you are so desperately trying to evade.

Plus, most scholars agree that in our society, less than 10% of the population is gay or lesbian, with the actual number probably around 4% or 5%. According to the article, in these cultures each person knows about 400-500 individuals. 5% of 500 is only 25 people - and that is spread out across all generations. Its not hard to keep only 25 people in the closet, especially in a culture that places such a high emphasis on procreation.

Oh but wait!

First you say comparisons about human nature cannot be extrapolated from two such divergent societies.

However:

You then apply the same percentage of homosexuality from our Western society to theirs, and then you deduce that… some of the simple people are lying about their lifestyle.

Unbelievable.:hypno:

 

[aprilfloyd]

Legal system or not, Im not discussing morality here. Im explaining that lying and adultery for example, are not genetic traits, they are actions. Sodomy, whether heterosexual or homosexual, is not.a genetic trait, it is an action.

The Church is against sexual actions for any single persons. And since it is impossible for homosexuals to get married in gay “marriage”, that means them too.

Which sexual actions? In the UK we are enacting 'gay marriage legislation - similar to many other countries. Why would the church get so ‘involved’ in this area of life? What is it trying to achieve through latent homophobia. The church can’t change the course of nature - however much it may wish to.

 

[epan]

What?

Actually, we can make a significant comparison and deduction: They haven’t been tainted with the moral relativism of western society.

Which is the exact point you are so desperately trying to evade.

Oh but wait!

First you say comparisons about human nature cannot be extrapolated from two such divergent societies.

However:

You then apply the same percentage of homosexuality from our Western society to theirs, and then you deduce that… some of the simple people are lying about their lifestyle.

Unbelievable.:hypno:

I agree with you that we can learn a great deal about human nature by studying and understanding other cultures. By identifying the cultural differences, and then identifying the remaining similarities, we can learn a lot. We also learn much be examining where our cultures and values coincide.

 

[epan]

Which sexual actions? In the UK we are enacting 'gay marriage legislation - similar to many other countries. Why would the church get so ‘involved’ in this area of life? What is it trying to achieve through latent homophobia. The church can’t change the course of nature - however much it may wish to.

Now wait a minute. The way that a growing child lies is an important indicator of cognitive development. If your child’s lies to not become more sophisticated in certain ways, then that is a red flag for delayed cognitive development. You might not be quite on track there.

I think that many biologists might tell you that adultery is a common reproductive technique for successful males. Whereas, females are more the one man settle down into the camp or cave type. There are biological reasons for this.

 

[Cor_Cordis]

But, I don’t think that there has been a causal relationship found, yet.

What exactly was your point about narcissism and homosexuality?

My point was that their is a strong correlation between homosexuality and narcissism.

Now, it is my understanding that the incidence of narcissism is higher in the homosexual population. This would be expected, considering the self esteem issues that they sometimes deal with. My understanding is also the instances of borderline personalities among men is far more prevalent among homosexuals. Otherwise, the majority of borderline personality disorders tend to be female.

Why do they have self esteem issues?

 

[aprilfloyd]

So if society decides that incest is no longer an immoral or sinful thing, then you’re okay with that. Right?

How about pederasty?

How about bestiality?

How about co-ed bathrooms and showers in public schools?

I should write a paper on sexual repression and Catholicism. Why do you bring , bestiality, pederasty into the conversation Cor Cordis. I am starting to worry about you. But seriously, when discussing homosexuality why do Catholics resort to discussing, murder, bestiality, lying, pederasty etc,. etc. Why is this so prevalent on this forum? I don’t think I have seen anyone mention that maybe two homosexuals could be in love and express it sexually, which apparently is quite common in the heterosexual world.

 

[aprilfloyd]

And it is an action that is physically detrimental to our biological design. It is rife with unhealthy consequences. It is a blatant misuse of our bodily design.

Cor Cordis - You are starting to really worry me