Gay?

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I am not following the logic of this thread. We are all sinners and all commit a wide variety of sins. Why would one type of sin give someone a regular dose of “extra unhappiness” than another? Are contracepting couples incapable of true happiness because they prevented the other one, two, three kids they were meant to have? Are divorced and re-married couples who never received an annullment incapable of true happiness because their marriage is forbidden? Sins can have all kinds of consequences–sometimes the embezzler goes to prison, sometimes he goes to Tahiti. The stereotype of the tortured homosexual is a silly way to reinforce moral teaching.
 

Originally Posted by bapcathluth
I also think the joke is tasteless. It assumes that all gay men will sodomize anyone who bends over. It is sophomoric and deserves to be on the lowest level of Saturday Night Live.​

No, it’s a joke. Most people realize that. Saturday Night Live is funny and so was the show “In Loving Color”. Which would joke about gays, blacks, whites, women, and men. Maybe people need to lighten up.
 
All sin brings about unhappiness. Even if you live in Tahiti. Kids being cruel happens to many, but that isn’t the ultimate cause. Homosexuality is a consequence of original sin. God didn’t create it. We did and some suffer from it. You might as well say God created rapists, pedophiles, sadists, and bestialitists (?). Does that make those practices okay? Some desperately want to say “yes”. In Holland the age of consent was lowered to age 12. And the homosexual lobby was instrumental in accomplishing it. Ask yourself why.
 
Sin brings about unhappiness if you agree that what you are doing is a sin. I don’t think contraception is a sin, so I don’t feel unhappy about it at all, but I would feel very guilty about stealing from somebody. The same would go for homosexuals and their feelings. If they feel they are decent people and don’t feel that their behavior is a sin, then they probably feel good about themselves. In our society it is probably easier for them than some others, but it is still difficult.

I don’t live in Holland, but I think lowering the age of consent to 12 years old is a terrible idea. Whether homosexuals had anything to do with it or not, all children will suffer because of it. I have known plenty of heterosexual child predators as well, and anybody who has sex with a child is a sick individual who deserves to be punished. This is very different than two consenting adults agreeing to something.
 
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bapcathluth:
I think it has little to do with mortal sin and a great deal to do with being treated like a dog. I had a very sweet high school student who was very effeminate. He was kind and very artistic. The other kids–especially the boys were so cruel to him. Is it any wonder that he was unhappy?
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This idea – that homosexual people are unhappy primarily because they’re rejected by others – is a widespread fallacy that’s promoted by the “gay rights” crowd. I used to believe it myself. I had several homosexual friends in high school and college. They felt rejected by society, and they were unhappy. At first glance, it would seem that the societal rejection (a.k.a. “homophobia”) caused their unhappiness.

Since then, I’ve discovered that the issue isn’t that simple. For instance, homosexuals who are living an “out” lifestyle, in an area where being “gay” is celebrated (such as the Castro in SF), actually have the highest rate of emotional problems, such as depression, suicide, and drug abuse. (I’ll try to find the citation for this. The connection is pretty well documented.)

On the other hand, many Christians will say that homosexuals are unhappy because they’re in a state of mortal sin. Although there’s a lot of truth to this explanation, it’s still incomplete. According to Catholic experts in homosexuality, unhappiness can also be part of a mental disorder that’s contributing to the same-sex attraction in the first place.

The most common conflicts at different life stages that predispose individuals to homosexual attractions and behavior are loneliness and sadness, mistrust and fear, profound feelings of inadequacy and a lack of self-acceptance, narcissism, excessive anger, sexual abuse in childhood, and a lack of balance in one’s life coupled with overwhelming feelings of responsibility.

(Dr. Richard Fitzgibbons in “The Truth About Homosexuality,” Ignatius Press, 1996.)

It seems clear that there’s a vicious cycle at work here. “Reparative therapy” is intended to break the cycle, by addressing the underlying emotional problems. Although patients aren’t always “cured” in terms of becoming heterosexual, virtually all of them experience relief from their depressive symptoms.

family.org/welcome/press/a0028749.cfm

Some other resources about emotional problems in same-sex attraction:
Even if this topic makes us uncomfortable, I believe we’re called to learn more about it, so we can show true compassion and understanding to people who are trapped in a life of sin and unhappiness. (Although, personally, I don’t think that disqualifies the ATM joke. 😉 )

God bless,
Mrs. R
 
bap,

Sin can give you pleasure, but not real happiness. I have met thieves and drug dealers with high self-esteem, but they were not truly happy. Those in hell are very unhappy. Don’t mistake pleasure with joy. The homosexuals argue that children have the “right” to pleasure hence the lowering of ages of consent. They would say you are “discriminating” by restricting it only to adults. They would argue that to draw a line means acknowledging some objective morality. No homosexual can stand that notion. The APA was actually debating removing child abuse as a paraphilia. Contraception for example gives you certain pleasures, but the negatives will catch up to you sooner or later. Deprivation of a good is not a postive thing. And I repeat I haven’t met a happy well adjusted homosexual. Ever.
 
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cestusdei:
bap,

Sin can give you pleasure, but not real happiness. I have met thieves and drug dealers with high self-esteem, but they were not truly happy. Those in hell are very unhappy. Don’t mistake pleasure with joy. The homosexuals argue that children have the “right” to pleasure hence the lowering of ages of consent. They would say you are “discriminating” by restricting it only to adults. They would argue that to draw a line means acknowledging some objective morality. No homosexual can stand that notion. The APA was actually debating removing child abuse as a paraphilia. Contraception for example gives you certain pleasures, but the negatives will catch up to you sooner or later. Deprivation of a good is not a postive thing. And I repeat I haven’t met a happy well adjusted homosexual. Ever.
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When you speak of “the homosexuals” who do you mean? It sounds like you mean all homosexuals.

When you speak of “No homosexual” should we take that literally?

I’m not sure if this is what you mean. Is it?
 
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cestusdei:
bap,
And I repeat I haven’t met a happy well adjusted homosexual. Ever.
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Code:
Father,

I have met many ‘gays’ and I too believe their so-called happiness is superficial. I have read the book Good-bye Good Men on the request of my spiritual director. I typed 12 pages of quotes for him (he doesn’t read). I asked him if most of this is true. He replied yes. Then we discussed it. He stated that there would be hardly any priests if ‘gays’ were not in the priesthood. And from what I have been made aware of over the years, there are so many priests that are so psychologically imbalanced. I realize that heterosecuals are also imblalanced but, it seems much greater in the homosexual department. It gets to a point when you must have your ‘antennae’ up all the time to pick up on what mood they are in before approaching them.

My opinion on this (for what it’s worth), priests must take a vow a celibacy anyway. One way or the other, whether they are heterosecual, homosexual, bi-sexual, asexual, beastial, etc etc…they must uphold it. But it is the moods that are difficult to handle at times.

I have asked this question on two different threads and NOBODY has answered my question. Maybe you will. Homosexuality is found in the higher animal world. My brother owned a homosexual dog. I suppose that original sin had also entered the animal world, etc but could it be possible that there is a gene that is the problem here? Could all these gays that have come out of the closet (and that is some big closet!), have been abused in their childhood in some form?

Thank you for your time.
Blessings,
Shoshana
 
Ken, Yes, I suppose I mean all gays.

Shoshana,

I am a priest and not a homosexual. The number of homosexuals in the priesthood is overstated. It actually depends on what diocese they are from. In my diocese we really don’t have this problem. The media likes to take a fairly small number and play it up for nefarious purposes. Homosexuals should not be ordained. Even if they are celibate. Maybe if things were different we could tolerate a few, but right now is not the time. Homosexuality is a moral and mental disorder. We now see the results of that disorder. If we got rid of all homosexuals in the priesthood we would still have the great majority of priests. And they would be more likely to be orthodox.
 
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cestusdei:
Ken, Yes, I suppose I mean all gays.

Shoshana,

I am a priest and not a homosexual. The number of homosexuals in the priesthood is overstated. It actually depends on what diocese they are from. In my diocese we really don’t have this problem. The media likes to take a fairly small number and play it up for nefarious purposes. Homosexuals should not be ordained. Even if they are celibate. Maybe if things were different we could tolerate a few, but right now is not the time. Homosexuality is a moral and mental disorder. We now see the results of that disorder. If we got rid of all homosexuals in the priesthood we would still have the great majority of priests. And they would be more likely to be orthodox.
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I have a couple questions:

#1: How do you define “chaste homosexual”?
#2: Why do you believe these men should not be allowed into the priesthood?
 
  1. A chaste homosexual is just that, a homosexual who refrains from sexual activity.
  2. Those who identify themselves as homosexual should not be ordained. Ordaining men with a disorder like that does them and the Church no good. We need healthy men in the priesthood.
There are some who refuse to indentify themselves as “homosexual”. They consider themselves heterosexuals who suffer from a same sex attraction disorder. For them chastity goes beyond just refraining from sexual activity. It can encompass the self-gift which is integral to real christian chastity. Also they tend to be more likely to attempt to cure their disorder through therapy. It is possible that someone like that might…I say might…be a candidate for ordination. Although right now even that might not be advisable. But only if after careful examination they are declared cured, have practiced chastity, and pose no threat of scandal. In addition they must be entirely orthodox. However, that is a lot of effort. It is probably best to take the safe side and encourage them to live a good Catholic life as a layman.
 
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Shoshana:
Code:
I have asked this question on two different threads and NOBODY has answered my question. Maybe you will. Homosexuality is found in the higher animal world. My brother owned a homosexual dog. I suppose that original sin had also entered the animal world, etc but could it be possible that there is a gene that is the problem here? Could all these gays that have come out of the closet (and that is some big closet!), have been abused in their childhood in some form?

Thank you for your time.
Blessings,
Shoshana
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Code:
This question still remains unanswered. Can someone help???

Blessings,
Shonana
 
I suppose that original sin had also entered the animal world, etc but could it be possible that there is a gene that is the problem here? Could all these gays that have come out of the closet (and that is some big closet!), have been abused in their childhood in some form?
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Well, I don’t think too many of us are Biology PhD’s so I don’t think you would get a definitive answer.

But even if there is a gene, that is certainly not an excuse for homosexuality.

There is a gene that give on a tendency for alcoholism. That does not mean we should allow that person to ruin their lives with there disorder.

The same is true for homosexuality. We need to provide an environement where a person with homosexual tendencies recognizes the self destructiveness of their tendencies and support of them to overcome them.

If it is a mental disorder, caused by abuse or lack of love of some variety, the same becomes true. The illness deserves treatment, not all of us pretenting it isn’t there.
 
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Ken:
Sin may be sin, but some sins get far more opposition than others. I notice a very lax attitude among Church leaders and laity towards contraception. I’m sure the teaching is in the rule book, but the attention devoted to it pales next to the attention given to gay marriage.

So, sin is sin, but the more widespread sin, and the sin engaged in by so many Catholics in the pews on Sunday, is just not that important.
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Well said! The hypocrisy I see on this board is sometimes very troubling. I would wager the vast majority of American Catholics, and probably most non third world Catholics practice something other than NFP with ZERO GUILT. Why is that? Practicality perhaps? My mother came from a family of 9 children. I can tell you that they were extremely poor farmers and with 8 other kids including her twin sister, which for my mother was truly a gift from god, she received none of the attention she needed as a child. That is why I called her twin “truly a gift” as I am not sure how well my mother would have fared in that horribly dogmatic and oppressive environment. My mother to this day, she will be 53 this year, has issues from the burden of guilt instilled in her as a Catholic child, in Catholic school and by her parents. My mother, as a child, was a victim of NFP.

Should a woman be a brood mare or is there a point where enough is enough? My parents CHOSE to stop having children at 3 because they decided that was the limit that they could manage to provide for and still allow my mother to stay at home with her children. My father, also Catholic CHOSE a vasectomy with ZERO GUILT to accomplish this. As the child of my parents I thank them for this. I personally do not know another Catholic family with more than 4 children.

I say all of this to point out that a sterile union is a sterile union. I certainly do not fault my parents for my parents decision. I defiantly would not deny marriage to a couple who could not have children, as is done still today. If I cannot fault those situations involving a sterile union how can I persecute, much less defame any sterile union, including gay people?

For that matter just how many people in your church do you think have sex before marriage? Even if you just count the couples that do get married not just those dating? Do you have the same abhorrence for them as you do two same gender adults engaging in consensual sex? If you do I suggest you examine why? From where does the unequal vehemence stem? Does the potential for being married for the straight couple make it more right? Does actual marriage absolve those who do eventually get married since they are no longer “living in sin?”

Try really hard to not paint people with such broad strokes and get to know each person, then remember it is not your place to judge to begin with. Humility is a wonderful thing while Hubris and self righteousness is an affront to all. We are all just humans with our own strengths and weaknesses. There are atheists that lead by our values a much holier existence than you or I and Catholics that falter daily.
 
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cestusdei:
Ken, Yes, I suppose I mean all gays.

Shoshana,

I am a priest and not a homosexual. The number of homosexuals in the priesthood is overstated. It actually depends on what diocese they are from. In my diocese we really don’t have this problem. The media likes to take a fairly small number and play it up for nefarious purposes. Homosexuals should not be ordained. Even if they are celibate. Maybe if things were different we could tolerate a few, but right now is not the time. Homosexuality is a moral and mental disorder. We now see the results of that disorder. If we got rid of all homosexuals in the priesthood we would still have the great majority of priests. And they would be more likely to be orthodox.
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Your ignorance of the world arround you is quite simply astounding. Your diocese does not have this problem huh? What more honorable path can a homosexual man take than to devote his life to god and service, what nobler path can anyone take? And homosexuals do not prey on children, pedophiles do. As the church realised athe enormity of the problem in Boston, an investigation was conducted by the church to try to get a bearing on if priests were keeping thier vow of celibacy. The result, 50% of heterosexual priests were keeping theirs, 80% of the homosexuals were keeping theirs. Sounds like all of those teenage girls that got involved with priests were not as publicised as the boys. Especially considering the higher number of hetersexual priests. Folks not all those that were abused were boys, not all of them were children, many were teens and from a legal standpoint this changes everything. As a former police officer I can attest to this. Especially with teenage girls, they have a mind of their own. None of this makes a priest being involved with a teenager right and god knows the priests involved with children that fall under the statutory rape and child molestation could not be more wrong. But Priest has consensual relationship with 16 year old girl just does not make for the same headlines.

I firmly support our priests and I am sorry for those that are now having to endure sideways glances and mistrust based on the heinous actions of the few.

It sounds as if you have a major issue with a homosexuals period… one that you need to work thru in your heart as it is obvious that you cannot minister to those your are promised to from anything other than hate. Where is the compassion dictated by the Pope for these individuals? Who are you to think you know what is best for the church and mankind? I have met priests like you before and you sir and people like you are what is wrong with the faith. You are why people leave the church.

I abhor having to use such unkind words to a priest but it seems someone needs a time out in the corner to reflect on the heart of christianity and if such blatant uncompassionate statements belong in the heart and mind of someone we trust with our souls and call Father.
 
Uncompassionate? Ah, one of the buzz words that comes up when someone finally gets around to telling the truth. I can say from my inside vantage point that homosexuals in the priesthood are a problem. They are more prone to violate their promises. I have no idea where you got your facts. But the fact is that in Boston most of the abuse, almost 90% was homosexuals and postadolescents. Very few cases of real pedophilia were present. Virtually all of the cases involved homosexual activity. You can check the catholic league. This tells me that the problem isn’t priests per se, but homosexuals. I also know that homosexuals in the priesthood tend to be less then orthodox. Often they are the major dissenters in a diocese. You don’t hear them preaching about NFP or abortion. And btw saying that many catholics contracept in no way justifies sodomy which is an even more serious sin. Not all sins are equal. Also homosexuals are working hard to destroy the christian family. They are often in the forefront of attacking the Church. I don’t forget their desecration of the Eucharist at St. Pat’s.

I personally have worked with homeless aid’s patients including changing their diapers. I would say that is compassionate. But I don’t lie to them and tell them that sodomy is okay. It is not compassionate to allow homosexuals to destroy marriage and family or to be ordained when they are not fit.
 
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cestusdei:
I’m a Catholic priest. That’s why I said when I meet them they tend to be honest one way or the other. No mortal sin makes people happy. The human person was not designed to experience joy by means of mortal sin.
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Well said, Reverend.

Ultimately, our joy is in God. Everything else is an empty pursuit.
 
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Iccaro:
Your ignorance of the world arround you is quite simply astounding. Your diocese does not have this problem huh? What more honorable path can a homosexual man take than to devote his life to god and service, what nobler path can anyone take? And homosexuals do not prey on children, pedophiles do.
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Oooo… someone with an agenda!
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Iccaro:
As the church realised athe enormity of the problem in Boston, an investigation was conducted by the church to try to get a bearing on if priests were keeping thier vow of celibacy. The result, 50% of heterosexual priests were keeping theirs, 80% of the homosexuals were keeping theirs. Sounds like all of those teenage girls that got involved with priests were not as publicised as the boys. Especially considering the higher number of hetersexual priests. Folks not all those that were abused were boys, not all of them were children, many were teens and from a legal standpoint this changes everything.
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Don’t you love it when someone just makes up some statistics and quotes it as if it were a fact?
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Iccaro:
As a former police officer I can attest to this.
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Guess we can’t question you, then, can we? As an attorney, I’ve seen what present police officers can do with the “facts.” I’d hate to see what happens to those facts once they leave the force.
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Iccaro:
Especially with teenage girls, they have a mind of their own. None of this makes a priest being involved with a teenager right and god knows the priests involved with children that fall under the statutory rape and child molestation could not be more wrong. But Priest has consensual relationship with 16 year old girl just does not make for the same headlines.
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Um… okay.
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Iccaro:
I firmly support our priests and I am sorry for those that are now having to endure sideways glances and mistrust based on the heinous actions of the few.
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Riigghhtt.
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Iccaro:
It sounds as if you have a major issue with a homosexuals period… one that you need to work thru in your heart as it is obvious that you cannot minister to those your are promised to from anything other than hate. Where is the compassion dictated by the Pope for these individuals?
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You don’t want priests to minister to homosexuals - you want them to pat the homosexuals on the back and say “Hey, you’re gay, and that’s ooooo-kay with me!” 👍
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Iccaro:
Who are you to think you know what is best for the church and mankind? I have met priests like you before and you sir and people like you are what is wrong with the faith. You are why people leave the church.
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You forgot to say “who can’t stand to hear the truth” to the last sentence. As in “You are why people* who can’t stand to hear the truth * leave the church.”
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Iccaro:
I abhor having to use such unkind words to a priest but it seems someone needs a time out in the corner to reflect on the heart of christianity and if such blatant uncompassionate statements belong in the heart and mind of someone we trust with our souls and call Father.
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Don’t confuse “compassion” with "acceptance. It’s hardly compassionate of a priest to allow a person to continue sinning before God. Something about the gate is narrow…
 
I know I’m going to regret this but…

My parents are gay. They’re lesbians. And they’re the happiest people I’ve ever seen. Their relationship is more stable than most of my friends who have straight parents. They adopted me at the age of 2 months after my birth mother OD’d on heroin.

Just wanted to chime in with an “insider’s” opinion. Please don’t attack me.
 
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