Gay?

[Ptero]

cestusdei:

I take no satisfaction in homosexuals being unhappy. I want them to be happy forever in heaven. And sodomy precludes that. I suppose you take satisfaction that those who practice bestiality tend to be rather unhappy? Or do you mind bestiality if both parties consent? After all they might be born that way and you don’t want to be specist. How about pedophilia? You don’t mind happy pedophiles? I take it you think they are well-adjusted? Recently a book published by UMinn Press by Levine argues that there is nothing wrong with it. Welcome to the future of non-judgemental, compassionate, subjective morality.

No kidding! Unless we hear pro-ssm proponents tell us that there are limits to what is acceptable we should all be afraid of the logic the proponents of ssm present.

If Judeo-Christian morals are the foundation of our cultures morals and we are now deciding that these morals are no longer valid because they violate “separation of church and state” than I see a void of any moral code being the order of the days to come which will amount to cultural suicide.

For those who accept homosexuality as an acceptable moral and cultural norm, regardless of your “orientation,” would not pedophilia, besitiality, prostitution also be morally acceptable? If not why not??

For some insight as to how “paraphilias” are coming to be viewed as acceptable lifestyles amongst the APA go to the links that LoveTheTruth posted and do some reading!

 

[Jeffrey]

Iccaro:

Your ignorance of the world arround you is quite simply astounding. Your diocese does not have this problem huh?

The parish I go to has no homo Priests, wouldn’t have it any other way.

Iccaro:

What more honorable path can a homosexual man take than to devote his life to god and service, what nobler path can anyone take?

How about not being ‘gay’.

Iccaro:

And homosexuals do not prey on children, pedophiles do.

Pedophiles that prey on little boys ARE ‘gay’. There’s a very high chane that as a youth they too were molested/raped by a pedophile…who was guess what gay. Don’t fool yourself.

Thing is…you cannot be a Catholic/Christian and be gay. The Bible and Church say so. You cannot be pro-choice (murder) and be a Catholic/Christian either for the Bible and Church say so.

 

[Ken]

Ptero:

No kidding! Unless we hear pro-ssm proponents tell us that there are limits to what is acceptable we should all be afraid of the logic the proponents of ssm present.

If Judeo-Christian morals are the foundation of our cultures morals and we are now deciding that these morals are no longer valid because they violate “separation of church and state” than I see a void of any moral code being the order of the days to come which will amount to cultural suicide.

For those who accept homosexuality as an acceptable moral and cultural norm, regardless of your “orientation,” would not pedophilia, besitiality, prostitution also be morally acceptable? If not why not??

For some insight as to how “paraphilias” are coming to be viewed as acceptable lifestyles amongst the APA go to the links that LoveTheTruth posted and do some reading!

There is a difference between what is morally acceptable and what is socially acceptable. Many things are socially acceptable while thay may not be acceptable under various moral codes.

Morallity is a private affair; social acceptance is a communal decision which may be grounded in a particular moral standard if enough of the society employs it.

The problem many people face is that some elements of the moral code to which they prescribe are not embraced by enough other people to influence social acceptance. They want to tell other people how to live, but nobody is listening to them.

 

[cestusdei]

Ken, I didn’t see large numbers of homosexuals opposing lowering the age of consent. If they didn’t like the idea they had a chance to say so. The silence was deafening.

 

[cestusdei]

Morality is NOT a “private” affair. It always has public consequences. Someones morals are going to win out. It is a matter of which morals will be adopted. Will it be okay to kill children in the womb or marry more then one person or marry ones dog or kill ones elderly parents…So there is a choice of moralities. We Christians need to work towards the adoption of divine moral law. The 10 commandments are not “suggestions” and there are consequences for adopting a perverse morality.

 

[Ken]

cestusdei:

Ken, I didn’t see large numbers of homosexuals opposing lowering the age of consent. If they didn’t like the idea they had a chance to say so. The silence was deafening.

Silence does not imply support. You can’t say all homosexuals support the lowering of consent laws from your observations.

I didn’t see large numbers of non-abusive Catholic priests opposing the abusers over the last forty years. But it would not be valid to conclude they supported the abusers from that observation.

 

[Ken]

cestusdei:

Morality is NOT a “private” affair. It always has public consequences. Someones morals are going to win out. It is a matter of which morals will be adopted. Will it be okay to kill children in the womb or marry more then one person or marry ones dog or kill ones elderly parents…So there is a choice of moralities. We Christians need to work towards the adoption of divine moral law. The 10 commandments are not “suggestions” and there are consequences for adopting a perverse morality.

Social acceptance of behavior can certainly lead to social consequences. No argument there.

But the process of instilling a moral code as the socially accepted code still proceeds from the private to the public. Social acceptance is never realized unless there are a sufficient number of people who privately embrace a particular code.

 

[Shoshana]

Jeffrey:

The parish I go to has no homo Priests, wouldn’t have it any other way.

What would you do about it?

Pedophiles that prey on little boys ARE ‘gay’. There’s a very high chane that as a youth they too were molested/raped by a pedophile…who was guess what gay. Don’t fool yourself.

That is not correct. There are many more pedophiles amongst married men than priests. It is a seperate illness to homosexuality. Chastitiy is not part of the picture as some people claim.

Thing is…you cannot be a Catholic/Christian and be gay. The Bible and Church say so. You cannot be pro-choice (murder) and be a Catholic/Christian either for the Bible and Church say so.

You should be more specific in your stand. Being homosexual is not against Church law. Homosexual acts are.

Blessings,
Shoshana

 

[Edwin1961]

Originally Posted by Iccaro
What more honorable path can a homosexual man take than to devote his life to god and service, what nobler path can anyone take?

Iccaro…first of all, I think God is spelled with a Capital ‘G’.

Second, take this from someone who knows. the gay lifestyle has MORE angles to it than you could not know.
Yes, there are those who try to live in a committed relationship, but the gay culture supports the contrary. (Mulitple partners in open or closed relationships). I WAS once in such a situation. I had a male partner for 12 years, but emptiness was growing inside me. I started to search elsewhere and met another man, (whom said he was Catholic). When that episode ended, I kept on looking to fill that emptiness. Emptiness which consisted of sex. Emptiness…call it an empty conscience crying for help, call it a desperation to fill a void without God’s help of Grace. I fell deeper into things that I cannot post here.

All that is now in the past.
YES a homosexual can live a chaste life and keep away from the temptations that once devistated a lost, empty soul.

Heterosexual and Homosexuals can devote their lives to God/Christ/the Holy Spirit, it’s a matter of following His Will than Satan’s will or one’s own will. I am sure ALL priests have crosses to bear just as much as we do, BUT the crosses seem to be bigger and heavier since THEY are outward physical symbols of Christ.

go with God!
Edwin

 

[Jeffrey]

Shoshana:

You should be more specific in your stand. Being homosexual is not against Church law. Homosexual acts are.

Blessings,
Shoshana

IMHO…if you don’t engage in the act, you aren’t homosexual. I realize thats just the first huge step for a recovery, and repentance. Thats a good start however.

Shoshana:

What would you do about it?

If the Priest still insisted on being homosexual, I’d go to another parish…but I would also pray for him and his parish.

 

[Edwin1961]

Jeffrey:

IMHO…if you don’t engage in the act, you aren’t homosexual. I realize thats just the first huge step for a recovery, and repentance. Thats a good start however."

Jeffrey, I agree however one may have tendices. Yet to me that is just temptation from the evil one. I thought I was gay for a long time, (because of a lack of father/son bonding at an early age). I was obcessed to the point that I was believing a lie.

“If the Priest still insisted on being homosexual, I’d go to another parish…but I would also pray for him and his parish.”

IMO: Of all persons, I would think a priest would find help from God and persons capable of helping him overcome these tendencies. Plus to say he is gay after the scandals, he is just putting himself out there for trouble to find him.

go with God!
Edwin

 

[Shoshana]

Jeffrey:

IMHO…if you don’t engage in the act, you aren’t homosexual. I realize thats just the first huge step for a recovery, and repentance. Thats a good start however.

/QUOTE]

Now I am confused. I am trying to define what you are trying to say. If man has homosexual tendencies but do not act on them, is not homosexual? If a heterosexual person has heterosexual tendencies, does that make him not heterosexual?

Blessings,
Shoshana

 

[Maggie]

Ken:

Interesting. Are all those Catholics who practice contraception and claim to be happy also lying?

Yep. Whether they are lying to you or lying to themselves, they are lying. This is what most people fail to grasp when dealing with any sin. What separates you from God, fails to make you happy. You can fill your life with whatever else comes along, but it will not fill your heart for only God can do that. Contraception comes between a husband and wife and trivializes what should be an intimate relationship. It removes the intimacy and makes it purely physical. It takes God out of the center of the relationship. I think people attack homosexuality because it is more visible. It’s harder to see people contracepting, but you can see two men or two women holding hands and therefore you know or presume to know what goes on behind closed doors. I think it is always easier to get caught up in everyone else’s flaws and activities, and so remove our focus from what God is calling us to change in our own lives. That someone else chooses to contracept or pursue a homosexual lifestyle does not make my sins more acceptable to God. I must lead my own life as fully acceptable to God as I am able regardless of what I see in the world around me. I must strive to accept as much of God’s grace in my life as possible to avoid as much sin as I am capable at my point in my journey rather than say at least I am not as sinful as that next person. For we all fall short of the glory of God, but just as I cannot actually walk in another person’s shoes, I cannot ask that God judge me for a journey I was not asked to make. He will only judge me on the journey that He asked me to take, which will only include those obstacles that have been placed in my path, not the ones that are tripping my neighbor.

 

[Ken]

error

 

[Ken]

Maggie:

Yep. Whether they are lying to you or lying to themselves, they are lying. This is what most people fail to grasp when dealing with any sin. What separates you from God, fails to make you happy. You can fill your life with whatever else comes along, but it will not fill your heart for only God can do that. Contraception comes between a husband and wife and trivializes what should be an intimate relationship. It removes the intimacy and makes it purely physical. It takes God out of the center of the relationship. I think people attack homosexuality because it is more visible. It’s harder to see people contracepting, but you can see two men or two women holding hands and therefore you know or presume to know what goes on behind closed doors. I think it is always easier to get caught up in everyone else’s flaws and activities, and so remove our focus from what God is calling us to change in our own lives. That someone else chooses to contracept or pursue a homosexual lifestyle does not make my sins more acceptable to God. I must lead my own life as fully acceptable to God as I am able regardless of what I see in the world around me. I must strive to accept as much of God’s grace in my life as possible to avoid as much sin as I am capable at my point in my journey rather than say at least I am not as sinful as that next person. For we all fall short of the glory of God, but just as I cannot actually walk in another person’s shoes, I cannot ask that God judge me for a journey I was not asked to make. He will only judge me on the journey that He asked me to take, which will only include those obstacles that have been placed in my path, not the ones that are tripping my neighbor.

Interesting. Are sexual relations between two infertile people purely physical? Does infertility come between a husband and wife and trivialize what should be an intimate relationship?

I’d say we see much more evidence of contraception than homosexuality. Just look at the number of kids in today’s Catholic families. The evidence is right in front of us. It’s more likely that people choose to ignore the evidence because it shows that the members of the Church reject the leadership of the Church. This is a question they don’t want to face.

 

[cestusdei]

Ken,

You won’t find the church officially advocating child abuse. Instead you will find it condemned. Those who committed it are paying a price. But you have homosexuals arguing that this very behavior is normal. I mean we can’t impose morality now can we? So if enough people say that pedophilia should be legal you would support it? That is what you are saying whether you like it or not.

 

[cestusdei]

Edwin here is telling the hard unvarnished truth. Much to his credit. It shows that God’s grace can still get through and lead to real freedom. Kudos to those who suffer from same sex disorder who embrace real chastity.

 

[Ken]

cestusdei:

Ken,

You won’t find the church officially advocating child abuse. Instead you will find it condemned. Those who committed it are paying a price. But you have homosexuals arguing that this very behavior is normal. I mean we can’t impose morality now can we? So if enough people say that pedophilia should be legal you would support it? That is what you are saying whether you like it or not.

There is no overall governing organization that represents all homosexuals. So there can be no official approval or condemnation of lowered consent ages. Even if there were, condemnation by an official group does not mean that all members agree.

There are homosexuals arguing for lowered ages of consent. That does not justify us in saying that all homosexuals favor a lowered age of consent.

Under your reasoning, if some members of a group favor something, then all members of a group favor it. That’s not true for either homosexuals or Catholic priests.

 

[Maggie]

Ken:

Interesting. Are sexual relations between two infertile people purely physical? Does infertility come between a husband and wife and trivialize what should be an intimate relationship?

Possibly, but it would depend on the relationship. If a male found out that I was an infertile female and then became interested in me, then yes that would trivialize the relationship. If two people, in growing close in a relationship and having God at the center, being open to children but not being able to conceive are unable to do so through infertility, then no it does not reduce that relationship to the purely physical.

Ken:

I’d say we see much more evidence of contraception than homosexuality. Just look at the number of kids in today’s Catholic families. The evidence is right in front of us. It’s more likely that people choose to ignore the evidence because it shows that the members of the Church reject the leadership of the Church. This is a question they don’t want to face.

Here you are arguing semantics. I don’t disagree with you (I actually don’t disagree with your point even) I think the question you are asking… you want to know why homosexual acts are made out to be the greater sin…whether or not you and I choose to accept it, is that there are in fact degrees of sin and that homosexual acts, according to Church doctrine, has a greater degree attached to it. You may not like it, you may not agree with it, but it doesn’t make it less true. I’m sure someone here, if the question is clarified, can quote the catechism and back-up scripture for that. But I never realized it before either, I always thought sin was sin and people were doing the speck/log thing too.

The chasteness of those homosexuals with deeply held religious beliefs shows that like all sexual acts, actions are choices and whatever our tendencies, we do have free-will regarding our behaviour. I am free to do whatever I choose, but not all of it will be pleasing to God. As a single female, none of my sexual activities will be pleasing to God, whether I am heterosexual or homosexual. So there need not be a single group speaking for me, for I am only answerable to God for myself.

And to cestusdei and anyone else addressing Ken’s points… I think the point that is being missed is that “homosexuals” like “blacks” “whites” “women” and “little green men” don’t exist.

They are not and never have been unified in either activities, beliefs, actions, tendencies, appearances, behaviors, or other such stereotypical or predjudicial aspects. There is a group of individuals within society who have homosexual tendencies. To assume that those individuals have anything in common beyond those tendencies is to paint with a broad brush that would be offensive to you if it were aimed at any of your own innate tendencies. So to assume that all individuals with homosexual tendencies are promiscuous and wish to have the age of consent lowered is an insult to those who battle the tendencies or who see promiscuity as a curse that afflicts both homosexuals and heterosesexuals.

 

[Ken]

Maggie:

Possibly, but it would depend on the relationship. If a male found out that I was an infertile female and then became interested in me, then yes that would trivialize the relationship. If two people, in growing close in a relationship and having God at the center, being open to children but not being able to conceive are unable to do so through infertility, then no it does not reduce that relationship to the purely physical.

Here you are arguing semantics. I don’t disagree with you (I actually don’t disagree with your point even) I think the question you are asking… you want to know why homosexual acts are made out to be the greater sin…whether or not you and I choose to accept it, is that there are in fact degrees of sin and that homosexual acts, according to Church doctrine, has a greater degree attached to it. You may not like it, you may not agree with it, but it doesn’t make it less true. I’m sure someone here, if the question is clarified, can quote the catechism and back-up scripture for that. But I never realized it before either, I always thought sin was sin and people were doing the speck/log thing too.

The chasteness of those homosexuals with deeply held religious beliefs shows that like all sexual acts, actions are choices and whatever our tendencies, we do have free-will regarding our behaviour. I am free to do whatever I choose, but not all of it will be pleasing to God. As a single female, none of my sexual activities will be pleasing to God, whether I am heterosexual or homosexual. So there need not be a single group speaking for me, for I am only answerable to God for myself.

And to cestusdei and anyone else addressing Ken’s points… I think the point that is being missed is that “homosexuals” like “blacks” “whites” “women” and “little green men” don’t exist.

They are not and never have been unified in either activities, beliefs, actions, tendencies, appearances, behaviors, or other such stereotypical or predjudicial aspects. There is a group of individuals within society who have homosexual tendencies. To assume that those individuals have anything in common beyond those tendencies is to paint with a broad brush that would be offensive to you if it were aimed at any of your own innate tendencies. So to assume that all individuals with homosexual tendencies are promiscuous and wish to have the age of consent lowered is an insult to those who battle the tendencies or who see promiscuity as a curse that afflicts both homosexuals and heterosesexuals.

1. OK. Should we oppose people from marrying infertile partners?
2. I bring up the issue of contraception in response to the people who say they oppose homosexuality because it is a sin. I think there must be something else motivating them to select this particular sin for their attention since it is much less common than the contraception that they ignore. So what is it?
3. Where do contraception and homosexuality rank among all other sins? Is there something like a numerical sin index?