Gay?

[Maggie]

SojournerOf78:

That was a good nonsense answer…As Catholics were supposed to struggle against sin, individually and corporately, we know this.

Thanks for the tossback on the question though, that helped a lot. :banghead:

It wasn’t just a tossback question though… the point being BOTH contraception and homosexual sexual acts are condemned as being abominations in scripture. But unless you plan to pursue your neighbor into the bedroom to police their sex acts there is not a lot you can do to prevent them from sinning. We are called upon by the Church to treat each human being with dignity and respect. We are called upon by the Church to treat homosexuals (who, by the way ARE people) with dignity and respect. If you inquire into your neighbors’ sex lives, than by all means feel free to do so with your homosexual neighbor as well. If your neighbor flaunts his sex life then you may feel free to express your views on its immorality and the danger it poses to his immortal soul.

 

[SojournerOf78]

Ken:

Maybe someone will provide a better answer. In the meantime just look around church next Sunday. There are probably many more people practicing contraception than homosexuality. Use the way you treat the folks practicing contraception as a model for how to treat homosexuals.

Ken, instead of blameshifting and scapegoating, lets talk about the subject of this thread, which isnt contraception but GAYS. If you want to argue the validity of viewing contraception as a more serious ofense than sodomy, start your own thread.

 

[Maggie]

SojournerOf78:

Ken, instead of blameshifting and scapegoating, lets talk about the subject of this thread, which isnt contraception but GAYS. If you want to argue the validity of viewing contraception as a more serious ofense than sodomy, start your own thread.

Okay. To use the appropriate terminology, gays as used within this thread are not merely homosexuals but a sub-set of homosexuals more often referred to within the homosexual community as flamers. They are promiscuous and probably guilty of many of the offenses that cestusdei has accused them of being, and they like promiscuous heterosexuals live a bon vivant lifestyle that has nothing to do with happiness and everything to do with pleasure. The point is that this is NOT all homosexuals and to presume that it is even MOST homosexuals is downright insulting to homosexuals. Ken’s point as far as I’ve been able to discern (and he is quite capable of speaking for himself) is simply to refute the lumping together of all people with one characteristic (homosexuality) and saying that they share all of the characteristics of this sub-group. This addresses cestusdei’s original point about the gayness of being gay. If you choose not to accept this response, that lies with you, not Ken’s lack of response. His second point is the distinction between our need to judge one sin so much more harshly than another when both are called abominations. But until the first point is accepted the second point is really part and parcel, because until people are willing and able to separate the sin (homosexual acts or contraception) from the sinner (homosexuals or heterosexuals) and recognize the dignity of the person, the conversation will continue to be accerbic.

 

[Shoshana]

SojournerOf78:

I guess thievery is bad but a thief is ok…

And a lie is bad but its fine to be a liar…

God isnt going to be sending sins to hell my friend, but people…

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God ? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind. Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

PS…please pray for me, a sinner

A homosexual, in and of himself, is not a SIN. If he performs no sexual acts, he is not guilty of sodomy. If he is chaste, then he certainly will not be going to hell.
Our Church teaches this and we should be listening…
A thief and a liar are defined by the actions. It isn’t so with homosexuals…

Blessings,
Shoshana

 

[Ken]

SojournerOf78:

Ken, instead of blameshifting and scapegoating, lets talk about the subject of this thread, which isnt contraception but GAYS. If you want to argue the validity of viewing contraception as a more serious ofense than sodomy, start your own thread.

Well, how do you treat all those folks in church who practice contraception? Shake hands after mass, get together for some golf, sit on the parish council with them, talk about the kids schools?

You asked how to treat homosexuals. I’m just giving you a suggestion. You already know how you treat all those folks who practice contraception. Just apply what you learned in dealing with them to homosexuals. No real need to reinvent the wheel.

 

[cestusdei]

Ken,

Both contraception and homosexuality are wrong. So is a child stealing a penny. But I am not all that worried about a stolen penny. That is a venial sin. But sodomy is a major sin. One that cries to heaven for vengence. Homosexuals have become a serious problem with their assault on marriage, family, and faith. You are just trying to avoid dealing with that. Also I note you did not state whether you agree with the Church’s teachings or not.

Let’s play your game. Schindler was a Nazi who helped Jews. That is to his credit. So I guess we have to say that not all Nazi’s are bad guys. Some were not anti-Semetic apparently. So if someone told you he was a Nazi you wouldn’t be concerned or hold it against him right? You would defend him and say “hey not all Nazi’s are bad guys, some of my best friends are Nazi’s.”. If the Nazi party was running in our elections you would object to them being negative portrayed since “not all” of them are evil.

Ken it is clear to me that you do NOT accept the Church’s unchanging and infallible teaching on homosexuality. You are attempting to muddy the waters so that we will lower our guard against the onslaught of militant homosexual activists. It won’t work. As they grow in strength they are beginning to destroy the foundations of our society. Also they are engaging in active persecution of Christians. In addition they are working to recruit children for their lifestyle. This is indisputable. Your futile attempts to change the subject are an admission of the real truth.

 

[cestusdei]

Both contraception and homosexuality are wrong. So is a child stealing a penny. But I am not all that worried about a stolen penny. That is a venial sin. But sodomy is a major sin. One that cries to heaven for vengence. Homosexuals have become a serious problem with their assault on marriage, family, and faith. You are just trying to avoid dealing with that. Also I note you did not state whether you agree with the Church’s teachings or not.

Let’s play your game. Schindler was a Nazi who helped Jews. That is to his credit. So I guess we have to say that not all Nazi’s are bad guys. Some were not anti-Semetic apparently. So if someone told you he was a Nazi you wouldn’t be concerned or hold it against him right? You would defend him and say “hey not all Nazi’s are bad guys, some of my best friends are Nazi’s.”. If the Nazi party was running in our elections you would object to them being negative portrayed since “not all” of them are evil.

Ken it is clear to me that you do NOT accept the Church’s unchanging and infallible teaching on homosexuality. You are attempting to muddy the waters so that we will lower our guard against the onslaught of militant homosexual activists. It won’t work. As they grow in strength they are beginning to destroy the foundations of our society. Also they are engaging in active persecution of Christians. In addition they are working to recruit children for their lifestyle. This is indisputable. Your futile attempts to change the subject are an admission of the real truth.

 

[Ken]

cestusdei:

Ken,

Both contraception and homosexuality are wrong. So is a child stealing a penny. But I am not all that worried about a stolen penny. That is a venial sin. But sodomy is a major sin. One that cries to heaven for vengence. Homosexuals have become a serious problem with their assault on marriage, family, and faith. You are just trying to avoid dealing with that. Also I note you did not state whether you agree with the Church’s teachings or not.

Let’s play your game. Schindler was a Nazi who helped Jews. That is to his credit. So I guess we have to say that not all Nazi’s are bad guys. Some were not anti-Semetic apparently. So if someone told you he was a Nazi you wouldn’t be concerned or hold it against him right? You would defend him and say “hey not all Nazi’s are bad guys, some of my best friends are Nazi’s.”. If the Nazi party was running in our elections you would object to them being negative portrayed since “not all” of them are evil.

Ken it is clear to me that you do NOT accept the Church’s unchanging and infallible teaching on homosexuality. You are attempting to muddy the waters so that we will lower our guard against the onslaught of militant homosexual activists. It won’t work. As they grow in strength they are beginning to destroy the foundations of our society. Also they are engaging in active persecution of Christians. In addition they are working to recruit children for their lifestyle. This is indisputable. Your futile attempts to change the subject are an admission of the real truth.

But I’m not trying to change the subject. The subject is whether we can attribute the position of some members of a group to all members of a group.

You hold that this is a valid approach. It’s not. It is the fallacy of composition.

You hold that all homosexuals favor lowering sexual age of consent because some homosexuals lobbied for it. You’re wrong. That’s a fallacy.

So, care to engage the subject? I’m right here. I’m not changing the subject, and I’m not going anywhere.

 

[Ptero]

Use the way you treat the folks practicing contraception as a model for how to treat homosexuals.

Okay, so who is not doing this?

I hope you’re not supposing that just because one thinks it’s bad for the culture to foster and promote homosexuality means that they necessarily mistreat homosexuals.

I would suggest that the church does have an obligation to teach its moral values to its members and when members are known not to be following teaching they should have that pointed out to them, and know that they risk excommunication if they don’t repent and make an attempt to live by church teachings.

But, the issue of how the culture should deal with homosexuality is another issue. I get the sense that this discussion is not differentiating between the two.

** The subject is whether we can attribute the position of some members of a group to all members of a group. **

So what if we can’t attribute the position of some members of a group to all its members. The actions of a few may still warrant caution and regulation by the culture for good of the whole.

I’m sure there is a case somewhere out there in which an adult had sexual relations with a child and the child did not suffer from it, does that mean that pedophilia is ok?

If the majority of homosexuals are found to be unstable, immature, sexually obsessed, and are seeking not only acceptance, but a powerful political voice in the culture that doesn’t value families, law and order and life beyond that of themselves, then the culture needs to police homosexual behavior for the good of the larger group.

Not because they’re homosexual, but because of their lack of interest or investment in sustaining the culture.

But you know, these thoughts are meaningless in a culture that doesn’t value life which is why the attempt to legitimize homosexuality had to wait until a time when the culture had already lost its moral groundings which happened in the last 50 years or so, and especially has been reinforced by the legalization of abortion.

 

[Maggie]

Use the way you treat the folks practicing contraception as a model for how to treat homosexuals.

Okay, so who is not doing this?

I hope you’re not supposing that just because one thinks it’s bad for the culture to foster and promote homosexuality means that they necessarily mistreat homosexuals.

I think that this is precisely the point. It is one thing to condemn the behaviour and another to condemn the person. Let’s keep the posts related to the behaviour. If we can segregate the two, both in our minds and in our words, we refute the notion that the acts are acceptable, which all of us agree are not, without forcing any given person into a group in which they are not comfortable or do not belong simply by virtue of having a given trait which they may not have chosen.

I would suggest that the church does have an obligation to teach its moral values to its members and when members are known not to be following teaching they should have that pointed out to them, and know that they risk excommunication if they don’t repent and make an attempt to live by church teachings.

absolutely.

But, the issue of how the culture should deal with homosexuality is another issue. I get the sense that this discussion is not differentiating between the two.

that’s actually a really good point. I think that Ken has a point that we cannot put the worms back in the can. I am not sure how we as a Church however can assist in that… do we have control of the culture or only of our members? We failed with divorce, contraception, abortion and now we are failing with homosexuality. Something has to give, but what and how? I think that I agree with Ken that only by really cracking down from the pulpit on all of it can we not be seen as bigots and can we really begin to get people to recognize these aspects of moral teaching for what they are…

I’m sure there is a case somewhere out there in which an adult had sexual relations with a child and the child did not suffer from it, does that mean that pedophilia is ok?

I really wish people would stop using this analogy. Pedophilia ruins a person for life. It’s not the same in any way shape or form. It’s an insult to anyone who has ever suffered from child sexual abuse to go around throwing it out there as equivalent.

Agreed that simply because all people with one trait do not define a “group” does not warrant protection from a sub-group, but that does not address Ken’s point of stop grouping all people with that trait as being members of the sub-group. Yes, it is one thing to say that society needs to be protected from the intrusion of the values of promiscuity and decay of values associated with the “gay” life-style of a certain sub-set of homosexuals, just as it needs to be protected from that same set of values from the sub-set of contracepting single bed-hopping bar-flies that are heterosexual. As you state below, these values are as much a consequence of the decay in culture and values resulting from divorce, contraception, and acceptance of abortion as yet one more form of contraception and can hardly be laid at the feet of homosexuals. Look at it this way, in large part, much of the acceptance of homosexuality is DUE to the acceptance of contraception and abortion, and many homosexuals who may have struggled harder to fight their temptations have not done so because it is more accepted due to our failure in these other arenas. So rather than blaming them for the decay of society maybe it’s time we examined our own culpability in their sin.

But you know, these thoughts are meaningless in a culture that doesn’t value life which is why the attempt to legitimize homosexuality had to wait until a time when the culture had already lost its moral groundings which happened in the last 50 years or so, and especially has been reinforced by the legalization of abortion.

 

[jennstall]

robertaf:

Greetings Just laura

I spent almost 30 years as a Christian Counselor. I did lots of family counseling but for the last 7 years, I saw many many gay people. In fact, the gay community come to see me as a gay counselor and recommended me. These were mostly gay men. This was in Southern California.
It is true that many gay folks have great careers. It is also true that many give the appearance of being happy. That was not my experience. Many of these guys are very sensitive. They also tend to be very spiritual. I am saying this without meaning to stereotype. It is just the way I found them. I knew many guys who were into satanism. This is especially true of a lot of them who are in theatre.
I talked to a lot of men who were angry and blamed God for them being gay. Almost every one of these guys, yes!.. I said almost 100% of them wished they were straight.
You might think I only saw the troubled guys but according to the ones I talked to, this was pretty common.
One big thing. It took a very long time to get any of their trust where they would really open up to me. Slowly the word spread and more and more rang my phone.
I retired about 20 years ago.

1. People that are happy, well-adjusted and content with themselves do not normally see counsellors so I think your statistical analysis is skewed.
2. I wonder how many black slaves with white owners wished they were white? Purely a hypothetical question, of course, but I bet it was a fair number. If it were heterosexuals that were oppressed rather than homosexuals, I’d probably wish I were gay. As a woman it has certainly crossed my mind more than once that my life would probably be easier if I were male.

 

[PKK]

I think that trying to equal infertility with contraception is like equating apples and oranges. Contraceptioin is a choice, infertility is not. Now change that to homosexuality. Homosexuality (same sex tendencies) may not be a choice, but being gay (living the lifesyle) is a choice. The issue I have is the Gay Agenda to promote in the public schools that being gay is just another normal lifestyle, pushing for our children to believe that gay behavior is normal and acceptable… Public schools are not the place to promote any form of sexuality. If it is really a private moral matter then let them keep it in the bedroom, and not in our classrooms. Just for the record I disapprove of any form of sex education (which I believe now is considered Health Class) in the classroom. It is not the place of the school system to teach my children sex education or morals. That is my place, and just because some parents refuse to teach their children, does not give the schools the right.

 

[Ken]

Ken wrote:
Use the way you treat the folks practicing contraception as a model for how to treat homosexuals.

Ptero responded:
Okay, so who is not doing this?

Ken replies:
Sojourner wrote regarding homosexuals, “Im not talking about judgement but what is our responsibility to these people and to the Lord?” I simply suggested an answer to the question posed by Sojourner. Do you have another suggestion?

---

Ken wrote:
The subject is whether we can attribute the position of some members of a group to all members of a group.

Ptero responded:
So what if we can’t attribute the position of some members of a group to all its members. The actions of a few may still warrant caution and regulation by the culture for good of the whole.

Ken replies:
It’s important that we do not say false things about people or groups. In the past this practice has led to grave injustice. Actions by some people may warrant action, but it is not necessary to falsely label others in order to take such action.

 

[cestusdei]

Ken, at a gay rally in San Francisco a speech was given stating that they indeed wished to recruit children. Everyone cheered. Homosexuals march by St. Pat’s and flaunt their genitalia. Everyone cheered. Homosexuals desecrate the Eucharist. Everyone cheered. I haven’t read about any homosexual groups that decried these actions. In fact in the show Queer as Folk a 15 year old boy is seduced by an older homosexual man. Homosexuals all thought this was wonderful. I didn’t read one, not one, review by a homosexual group that said “hey wait a minute…”. Sure you may find a few, a minority of, individual homosexuals who would disapprove. But they sure are quiet. Not a peep out of them. And you might have a few Naz’s who were nice guys, but that doesn’t mean we can’t disapprove of Nazi’s in general. Sorry if my disapproval of Nazism discomforts you or seems unfair. Gee, I guess it isn’t pc to not care for Nazi’s. So given the facts I have to say that homosexuals are either hiding their disapproval pretty well or don’t disapprove. I go with the latter. I don’t tar all groups. Just the ones that fit the bill. I would be delighted if homosexuals denounced such activities. But I bet we have to wait a long time. And thank you for confirming that you don’t accept Church teaching. It won’t change and if you are Catholic you should know that. We aren’t Anglicans.

 

[Maggie]

“They” don’t disapprove, “They” aren’t an organized group, because “They” don’t necessarily have a set agenda, or “They” don’t make it into the media because the media has a liberal bias… any of these are equally likely explanations. If you haven’t read “And the band played on” I would highly recommend it as a view of the disparity of opinions just within the homosexual community and the views they hold of each others’ activities and lifestyles. It would help to recognize them as people first. Many of them condemn the very lifestyles that you do, but they don’t march AS homosexuals against it because they choose not to advertise either their sin or their temptations, whichever it may be… Just as you and I don’t go around saying hey I did thus I am a sinner out loud to the whole world. They march as Christians as they have every right to do. Your presumption that they don’t protest assumes the exclusivity of the two. Would you have every person who ever had an abortion and later regretted it march in abortion protests wearing a scarlet letter A? Surely, a sin absolved by God, even an abomination, is forgiven… why do you feel a need to brand them? What makes it so different for a homosexual who is forgiven his sin or fighting his temptation?

 

[Ken]

cestusdei:

Ken, at a gay rally in San Francisco a speech was given stating that they indeed wished to recruit children. Everyone cheered. Homosexuals march by St. Pat’s and flaunt their genitalia. Everyone cheered. Homosexuals desecrate the Eucharist. Everyone cheered. I haven’t read about any homosexual groups that decried these actions. In fact in the show Queer as Folk a 15 year old boy is seduced by an older homosexual man. Homosexuals all thought this was wonderful. I didn’t read one, not one, review by a homosexual group that said “hey wait a minute…”. Sure you may find a few, a minority of, individual homosexuals who would disapprove. But they sure are quiet. Not a peep out of them. And you might have a few Naz’s who were nice guys, but that doesn’t mean we can’t disapprove of Nazi’s in general. Sorry if my disapproval of Nazism discomforts you or seems unfair. Gee, I guess it isn’t pc to not care for Nazi’s. So given the facts I have to say that homosexuals are either hiding their disapproval pretty well or don’t disapprove. I go with the latter. I don’t tar all groups. Just the ones that fit the bill. I would be delighted if homosexuals denounced such activities. But I bet we have to wait a long time. And thank you for confirming that you don’t accept Church teaching. It won’t change and if you are Catholic you should know that. We aren’t Anglicans.

1. We’re making progress. You no longer attribute the positions of some homosexuals to all homosexuals.
2. Does a failure to protest indicate approval? What other groups have remained silent while some of their members engaged in harmful behavior? Were they hiding their disapproval? Or were they approving?
3. Feel free to disapprove of the Nazis. I share your disapproval and feel no discomfort.
4. Feel free to disapprove of homosexuals all you want. They don’t care; they are winning. However, it remains invalid to attribute the positions of some homosexuals to all homosexuals.

 

[PKK]

Quote:
I’m sure there is a case somewhere out there in which an adult had sexual relations with a child and the child did not suffer from it, does that mean that pedophilia is ok?

Maggie:

I really wish people would stop using this analogy. Pedophilia ruins a person for life. It’s not the same in any way shape or form. It’s an insult to anyone who has ever suffered from child sexual abuse to go around throwing it out there as equivalent.
QUOTE]

Coming from a family where our father sexually abused his own children, I do not find this an insult but the truth that people need to hear. My father was approach by a homosexual man (a friend of my father’s) which for what ever reasons they began a relationship (I really don’t care why they started). This relationship, in turn began to include the children in our family. I do not hold all homosexuals accountable, but we need to see the patterns that can happen. I don’t really believe that these are two seperate acts, but that just like drugs one can and does often lead to the other. My father was a happy go lucky guy up until the day he died, yet never acknowledge how he screwed up the lives of his children, and what they have gone through to repair the damage, that yes affects them for the rest of their life.

What I don’t really see is comparing it to contraception. Yes this is a sin, and can and does affect a marriage. Beyond that there is no evidence that it affects others to the degree of the other.

 

[Jeffrey]

Ken:

1. We’re making progress. You no longer attribute the positions of some homosexuals to all homosexuals.

I do, as do lots of ppl.

Ken:

1. Does a failure to protest indicate approval? What other groups have remained silent while some of their members engaged in harmful behavior? Were they hiding their disapproval? Or were they approving?

They need to let it be known that they don’t support being a pedophile. Most pedophiles are homos btw.

Ken:

1. Feel free to disapprove of the Nazis. I share your disapproval and feel no discomfort.

As do I…prolly the only thing we’ll agree upon.

Ken:

1. Feel free to disapprove of homosexuals all you want. They don’t care; they are winning. However, it remains invalid to attribute the positions of some homosexuals to all homosexuals.

They aren’t winning, they never will. I, like alot of ppl, won’t ever accept them or thier agenda. Its sick and wrong. Besides, when its all said and done, they’ll lose.

 

[Mac6yver]

robertaf:

Contraception is the sin of disobedience. Sin is sin, isn’t it?

It seperates you from God. How can someone be happy being seperated from the Lord?
Because one thing is a sin, doesn’t make another a non sin.

What was that question about contraception suppose to mean?

Sins of the flesh, very often “feel good” and give creature pleasures at the time. You cannot be truly happy if you have cut yourself off from God. Can You?

I am happy, and I am by no means a Catholic. You are saying that over 95% of the world is not happy?

 

[Mac6yver]

Jeffrey:

They aren’t winning, they never will. I, like alot of ppl, won’t ever accept them or thier agenda. Its sick and wrong. Besides, when its all said and done, they’ll lose.

Believe what you want. In 50 years, your kind will be a dinosaur in this country.