General question about Evangelical belief, disturbing if true

[Mijoy2]

Reformed Rob:

Here’s something from the CCC:

1260 “… Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of His Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known it’s necessity.”

Like, who does this rule out? Muslims who kill Christians are certainly doing the will of God in accordance with they’re understanding, and as far as we know, many of them were honestly seeking the truth.

What about the atheist who denies Christ, even after you share the Gospel with him time and time again? Maybe he’s just ignorant of the Gospel because you didn’t present it in such a convincing way.

What about the Arian who still thinks that Arius taught what Christ and His Apostles taught concerning the nature of God and Christ?

Certainly this doesn’t rule me out from final salvation at this time. Even though I’m a Protestant (Reformed at that) and I seek the truth and do the will of God in accordance with my understanding of it. I’ve heard many arguments for the Catholic Church’s “necessity of Baptism” but I see it for what it is, a theological smokescreen to cover up the fact that you teach that nobody has to be baptised to be saved!

I find the Catholic’s belief very disturbing indeed. But this post is not about “me.” Rather, the question was asked, and the challenge is implicitly presented to defend the “Evangelical belief.”

Rob, what is so disturbing? Love, understandiing, this is what (it appears to me) the Catholic Faith is teaching. Not a ticket to a special club.

 

[Maccabees]

What is a little weird about all fundamentalist and many evangelical circles is the formulaic way salvation is guaranteed unlike baptism the way catholics and lutherans beleive the means you are born again. They have essentially replaced baptism with the sinners prayer. Not that repentance is a bad thing its great. But they declare you saved once you say this prayer de facto. THey really don’t press atoning for your sins and don’t deem baptism as even necessary many non-denoms openly declare it as an option. In Baptist circles they stress the practive but only as obedience to scripture. Well that is partially good but why does scriptue ask one to be baptized for a symbolic ordinance.

Salvation in essence becomes a one step process the sinners prayer no deep repentance of your own just the recited prayer no personal atonement or reperations and no need for baptism. This is a very dangerous way to teach one about aquiring salvation (soteriology).

 

[trogiah]

Whatever is taught by any church, perhaps Jesus can clarify how we can avoid eternal damnation:

“Stop judging and you will not be judged. Stop condemning and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven.”

These words are from chapter 6 of Luke. They are repeated in various forms several other places in the gospels.

There is much to be gained by a close personal relationship with Jesus. There is a fullness of life that cannot be attained anywhere else in the human experience. But eternal damnation is something that only those who would eternally damn someone need to worry about. That much is clear from the words of Jesus.

Peace.

-Jim

 

[metal1633]

100% correct - no question. I have always believed that only the blood of Jesus can wash away our sins and that free gift of eternal life is available for all those who believe in Him. Those who die without believing in Jesus die in their sins and cannot go to heaven.

Now the question is “Does one need to willfully ask Jesus to apply His Blood? And if so, how is it GRACE if something is required from us first?”

 

[metal1633]

Mijoy2:

The following is my understanding.

Catholics believe - salvation is through the Catholic Church.

NO. All Salvation in from GOD through the Work of Redemption performed by Christ on the Cross. By His Death and Ressurection. The Church was instituted as the Instrumental means through which His Work is carried out in the World.

Invincible ignorance may include Christians who love Christ but have not had adaquet insight into the fullness of the Faith through the Catholic Church.

NO Invincible Ignorance does NOT include anybody who has heard of the Gospel and the Chruch.

Invincible ignorance may include those of other religions who are doing all they can to honor thier heritage and thier family and truly believe thier respective Faith is Truth.

NO. Believing a lie and being faithfull to a lie is not “Invincible Ignorance”. It is objectively sinfull. Being a good and faithfull muslim or hindu or protestant will save NO ONE

Invincible ignorance may include those who simply were never exposed to Jesus Christ at all.

YES. The Invincibly Ignorant are those who, through no fault of thier own, have never heard the Gospel. “Through no fault of thier own” is the key. If your protestant friends refuse to hear you or to believe you when you explain the Faith to them then they are NOT “Invincibly Ignorant” and being a good and faithfull protestant is NOT to thier credit.

NO ONE who knows of the Church and refuses to enter or to remain in her can be saved.

“Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.” LG 14; cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5

 

[Melchior]

100% correct - no question. I have always believed that only the blood of Jesus can wash away our sins and that free gift of eternal life is available for all those who believe in Him. Those who die without believing in Jesus die in their sins and cannot go to heaven.

This is what the Bible and the overwhelming majority of Church fathers teach unambiguously.

The wide and narrowgate…

The only name by which we are saved…

He who does not believe…

Know one comes to the Father but by me…

How can Christian believe that one does not need Christ for salvation? That was why He came. To save sinners.

I understand if people are looking for an exception for those who have never heard the Gospel. But scripture also makes it pretty clear that those who seek God will find Him. Which seems to imply that God will get true seekers the Gospel. Of course how many true seekers are there really?

Mel

 

[carol_marie]

To those who believe like the original poster that all roads may lead to heaven and how could a loving God possibly condem those who are faithful to their own heritage, faith etc… Why did the early Christians have to die for their faith? Many many were murdered for preaching the gospel of Jesus by the very people they were so desperately trying to save. If it is perfectly ok and just as pleasing to God that people remain in whatever non-Christian faith they were born to, what a big waste for the early preachers of Christ to have to die. They should’ve just stayed at home, lived out their Christian life and left those pagans alone. They knew it wasn’t ok. They knew that Jesus had to be preached and they gave their very lives doing just that.

The evangelical belief that there is no salvation without Jesus is biblical. God may choose to save whomever He wants. Should we presume that he will do that? Save those who have rejected his son? (which, with communication and technology as it is today, the vast majority of people who are not Christians have chosen NOT to believe in Jesus - rather than never having heard of Him) The early Christians didn’t, nor should we.

 

[carol_marie]

Mijoy2:

Carol Marie, why did God create vitually an entire race of sinners just so that they would end up in Hell?

Can’t you see that is precisley my question?

How do you reconcile the design? Did God begin by saying, 'let’s see now, I think I will create billions of people and those of who are not in on little secret will be cast into a burning fire for eternity". CAROL MARIE! is this what you believe?!?!?!

**I have to believe it because it’s written in the Bible. I have not been given any other revelation from God so I have to take Him at his word. There is no salvation outside of Jesus because it’s only through HIS blood that we are forgiven of our sins. Jesus himself said, “I am the way and the truth and the life… no one comes to the Father but through Me.” Mijoy, when Jesus says that you can do one of three things: **

1. Believe Him.

2. Think he’s lying.

**3. Think he’s crazy. **

**I choose to believe Him. **

 

[trogiah]

**I have to believe it because it’s written in the Bible. I have not been given any other revelation from God so I have to take Him at his word. There is no salvation outside of Jesus because it’s only through HIS blood that we are forgiven of our sins. Jesus himself said, “I am the way and the truth and the life… no one comes to the Father but through Me.” Mijoy, when Jesus says that you can do one of three things: **

1. Believe Him.

2. Think he’s lying.

**3. Think he’s crazy. **

**I choose to believe Him. **

Perhaps there is the fourth possibility that we do not fully understand Jesus words.

I present these thoughts for consideration:

Time and again Jesus states in parables and in direct language that forgiveness is granted to those who practice forgiveness. Condemnation is avoided by those who avoid condemning others.

Putting faith in Jesus means practicing forgivenes. If one practices forgiveness then they are putting their faith in Jesus, even if they have never heard the name of Jesus. If one does not practice forgiveness then they are not putting their faith in Jesus, no matter how many times they may say his name.

So many roads lead a person to becoming judgemental of others and so these roads lead to damnation. The road of “following Christ” would seem far less likely to lead to condemnation but a person must truly practice forgiveness or they have missed the narrow path.

We don’t have to condemn anyone or assume that anyone is hell forever even though the possiblity for going there does exist. There may be billions or there may be none. God only knows for certain what is in any particular heart.

Peace

Jim

 

[MariaG]

The evangelical belief that there is no salvation without Jesus is biblical.

This is not an evangelical belief, it is a Catholic belief. There is no salvation outside of the Church. Col 1:18 he is the head of the body, the church. Jesus is the Church.

The difference is in the understanding of what exactly that means. The Catholic belief is somewhat like this analogy. I get in a car accident and I am knocked unconscious. I need emergency surgery and never have a chance to meet much less talk to the surgeon. He saves my life. In the same way people can be saved through Christ, whether they know Him or not. But this in no way means we do not have the responsibility to spread the good news, because it is much more difficult to know God outside of the Good News as well as more difficult without the full truth of the Catholic Church.

 

[Todd_Easton]

**I have to believe it because it’s written in the Bible. I have not been given any other revelation from God so I have to take Him at his word. **

I think you misunderstand the Catholic position. Catholics believe that anyone who is saved is saved through Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ is the only Savior. Catholics are not saying that someone can be saved through Buddha or Mohammed or Moses but that Buddhists, Muslims and Jews may be saved through Jesus, if, through no fault of their own, they have not had the opportunity to accept or reject Jesus but have responded to the grace of God in their lives. In other words, no one goes to hell simply out of ignorance of the saving sovereignty of Jesus Christ.

There are basically three kinds of people:

1. Those who accept Jesus as their Lord and live accordingly or, if they do subsequently fall into mortal sin, are reconciled to Him by the end of their lives. These will be saved.
2. Those who reject Jesus as their Lord at the end of their lives. These will not be saved.
3. Those who have not heard enough about Jesus to accept or reject Him as their Lord.

The issue under discussion seems to be what happens to those in the third category, those who are invincibly ignorant of Jesus.
The Church teaches that, since Jesus died for all, those who, through no fault of their own, did not know of Jesus’ saving sovereignty may yet be saved through Him, if they otherwise responded to the grace of God in their lives. This is similar to the situation of all those who died before the Incarnation.

This Catholic view is supported in the following verses:

In Luke 12:47-48, Jesus says that those who acted out of ignorance will not be punished the same at His return as those who were willfully disobedient: “And that servant who knew his master’s will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating. But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more.”

In Acts 10:34-35, St. Peter says, “Truly I perceive that God shows no partiality, but in every nation any one who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.”

In 1 Tim 4:10, St. Paul does not say that God is the Savior of only those who believe but “the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.”

 

[jeffreedy789]

two things: one, reformed bob said ‘Come on, get real!! Like don’t get all boo-hooey about God’s justice on sinners!’ i would call your ‘boo-hooey’ mercy, and i trust greatly in that mercy, as i, too, am a sinner, entirely deserving of hell. i would also call that ‘boo-hooey’ love, for instance john chapter 3 makes it pretty clear that we all deserve hell, and are condemned already. but, thank goodness, God got all ‘boo-hooey’ about His justice on us sinners, and died for us so that our salvation is possible.

two: the bit quoted from Jesus about being the only way of salvation is, of course, entirely true. He IS the only way we can be saved. what you presuppose, however, is that this salvation He has provided has to be applied to our lives in a way that you completely understand. if you did not completely understand it, then you couldn’t say that people can’t receive this salvation outside of the means by which you see that we can receive it.

in other words, Jesus is the only way we can be saved. but what do we have to know, what do we have to DO, in order to receive His salvation? here, and in God’s great mercy, lies the mystery of salvation possibly available for those who do not put their faith in Him for salvation.

it is, i think, love for our neighbor that motivates most of us who hope and pray for a) salvation for those who are outside of the church, and b) universal salvation. i know how little i deserve heaven. my prayer is that my brother, who deserves it probably more than i do, might find himself there as well.

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

jeffreedy789:

i would call your ‘boo-hooey’ mercy, and i trust greatly in that mercy, as i, too, am a sinner, entirely deserving of hell. .

How do you know you’re “entirely deserving of hell”? I’m NOT asking for a confession, I just want to bring up that God, not you, is the judge of all people, including you.

peace

 

[carol_marie]

Br. Rich SFO:

The Catholic Church teaches that Salvation is through Christ! Period! Christ established the Catholic Church. It is both a Divine and a human institution, both visible and invisible Corporal as well as spiritual. A person who is totally ignorant of the Catholic Church and of Christ can obtain Salvation, through Christ, even though they have not had the opportunity to come to know Christ.

Notice Br. Rich said a person “totally ignorant of the Catholic Church & Christ” which would NOT include your friendly Muslum neighbors or your kind agnostic brother-in-law or the New Ager who cuts your hair. All of those people, certainly everyone in the United States & all other develped countries have heard of Jesus Christ but have chosen their own heritage, culture, family - whatever over believing in Him. What does God say in his word about those who do not believe in His Son?

He who has the Son has life, he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1John 5:12

He who is not with me is against me. ~ Jesus Christ. (Luke 11:23)

Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name (Budda, Mohammad, Abraham, etc.) under heaven given to men by which we must be saved. Acts 4:12

Some have claimed that it’s “judgemental” of me to state the Biblical position that those who die without faith in Christ will, in all probability go to hell. I say that it’s by far worse for those who know Christ to say NOTHING to the unbeliever - to make them think that they are fine with God because they are “devout” in their false faith. We know the truth about Jesus - we KNOW the forgivness and peace only He can give - Should we be silent? Let’s preach Christ - not as an “option” to God but as the WAY to God - the only way. And think about this… who would like you to believe that all those who don’t know Jesus are “just fine” on their chosen paths? Satan doesn’t want people to know about Jesus… he’d love for them to stay on the broad road they are on. And he’d love you to be silent about it in a very “non judgmental” sort of way.

 

[MariaG]

Carol Marie,
I (and I fervently pray no one else is either) am not saying that we should not share the Good News. It is our obligation to do so. Nor am I saying that those who **reject **the good news but are good muslims are not going to go to hell. What the Catholic Church says and teaches is that Salvation is through the Church (Christ). The Catholic Church understanding of “Church” has expanded to include our Christian brothers and sisters who through no fault of their own, are not part of the visible Church. Because of this, the church recognizes the ***possibility ** *of those who are not Christian, could make it to heaven. It leaves room for invincible ignorance.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[carol_marie]

I agree with you Maria, however, I understood the original question to be how could evangelicals preach that those who do not believe in Christ will be sent to hell?? I was merely trying to suggest that’s a very biblical view and not one that those mean old judgemental evangelicals pulled out of the sky. I want to add that as an evangelical I was never taught that someone would be standing before the throne of God about to be sent to hell because they didn’t believe in Jesus and be able to say, “Oh God… I am so sorry… I never knew… had I known about your Son I would’ve believed.” Nope. Won’t happen. Because, as the original poster pointed out, that’s not fair. I believe that EVERYONE will have the opportunity to accept Christ in some way, shape or form. Evangelicals do not believe that God chooses to send anyone to hell but rather, by rejecting his Son they chose hell for themselves. How this works out is a mystery to me as I am not God. The original post said how could someone be expected to turn his back on his family, culture etc. for Christ ? What about the person who is devout and quite content in the religion “they believe” is correct? The bible is very clear about their fate and we do them no favors by glossing over the truth.

 

[darwindidntknow]

Mijoy2:

I’m looking for either confirmation that I am correct (generally speaking) or someone to tell me I am under a mistaken belief.

The following is my understanding.

Catholics believe - salvation is through the Catholic Church.
However, this being said, it need not imply that all others outside the Church are not going to be “saved”. The Church teaches a doctrine of invincable ignorance. Invincible ignorance may include Christians who love Christ but have not had adaquet insight into the fullness of the Faith through the Catholic Church. Invincible ignorance may include those who simply were never exposed to Jesus Christ at all.
Invincible ignorance may include those of other religions who are doing all they can to honor thier heritage and thier family and truly believe thier respective Faith is Truth.

Evangelicals believe - The ONLY way to salvation is through belief and acceptance of Jesus Christ as the Savior. They believe anyone who does not believe in Jesus as the Divine Savior, regardless of the reason, cannot be saved. I’m fairly certain a popular radio talk show Christian believes this. His reasoning for this is that if ignorance was an acceptable excuse, then Jesus did us a disservice by coming here and dying on the cross for us. And of course that cannot be the case. Therefore we MUST believe or we are doomed.

Furthermore the Evangelical community believes that there are only two places of which we all end up. Heaven and Hell. Non-existance or a Purgatory is not an option. Therefore virtually all Jews, Muslims, Buddists, Hindus, Atheists, Mormons, Jehova Witnesses, and those of other faiths are going to Hell to burn for eternity.

Tell me please, do I have this correct?

As an Evangelical myself, I certainly believe this. As for the ignorance thing- you have to ignore some pretty key passages in Scripture to say that it is true. Purgatory isn’t mentioned in the Bible either!

 

[MariaG]

posted by darwindidntknow

As an Evangelical myself, I certainly believe this. As for the ignorance thing- you have to ignore some pretty key passages in Scripture to say that it is true. Purgatory isn’t mentioned in the Bible either!

Scripture as in…?

Off subject but Purgatory word is not mentioned in the Bible, but the concept has a whole bunch of Scripture. Start a new thread or look up an old one so not to get us off track here, but purgatory is Scriptural.

God Bless

 

[MariaG]

Carol Marie,
Yeah, I just am glad I am not the one who decides exactly what invincible ignorance means. That is why it is so critical for all Christians to spread the Good News. I think too many Catholics have a very generous view of invincible ignorance and don’t want to “upset” people sometimes. I think I am still very Evangelical because I want to yell at people “better get on your knees or you’re going to hell” every once and a while, as well as I have never lost my zeal to “find it in the Bible”

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

p.s.
actually, I think the “you’re going to hell” comes more from my Nazarene days than Evangelical! In fact in the Nazarene Church that I had my saving grace sermon, the Pastors wife and I did have a discussion on the person in the wilds of Africa scenario and she said they would go to hell. I eventually left there.

 

[jeffreedy789]

michaeltdoyle posted - 'How do you know you’re “entirely deserving of hell”? ’

john chapter 3 makes it pretty clear to me, along with bits of the psalms (there is none righteous, no not one), and the fact that i know my life and how utterly deserving i am of eternal punishment.