General question about Evangelical belief, disturbing if true

[edwinG]

HI,
Romans14:9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
14:10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgement seat of Christ.
14:11 For it is written,
" As I live, says the Lord,
every knee shall bow to Me,
and every tongue shall confess to God.
14:12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.
14:13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother’s way."
Romans 2:13 For judgment is without Mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment"

Note even in the old testament regarding the law God said, I dont want your sacrificies I want you to be merciful to each other
Matthew 9:13 " But go and learn what this means: I desire mercy and not sacrifice" For I did not come to call the righteous but the sinners to repentance"
What a beautiful law: Mercy triumphs over judgment
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

 

[Exporter]

100% correct - no question. I have always believed that only the blood of Jesus can wash away our sins and that free gift of eternal life is available for all those who believe in Him. Those who die without believing in Jesus die in their sins and cannot go to heaven.

*Carol Marie, Your post sounds like a typical Protestant “faith without works” statement. Don’t you think one has to do more than just belive in Jesus?

My Goodness, Satan “believes” in Jesus. Satan saw Him.

 

[JimG]

carol marie:

I believe that EVERYONE will have the opportunity to accept Christ in some way, shape or form.

I also believe this. And this even applies to those who did not know Christ in this life because they lived before Christ. That is why they Apostles Creed says “He descended into hell” (i.e. to the abode of the dead). His purpose was to preach to those souls from Old Testament times to give them the opportunity to know Him and to choose to accept Him. This is an aspect of His ministry about which little knowledge has been given us.

Since the “abode of the dead” and the souls waiting there were not living “in time” (having passed from this life), one may also speculate that this place included not just OT people, but people of later times who had not the chance to hear the message of Jesus.

 

[Reformed_Rob]

Having read all the posts since my last ones, I have to say that you Catholics who stick to what appears to be the clear teaching of the Church make much more sense and uphold reasonable arguments. Maybe you don’t all agree on the details, but it seems reasonable to me, considering Catholicism and taking it seriously, to say that “perhaps, those who are genuinely ignorant of Christ and His Church, and who have been receptive of God’s actual grace in their life, perhaps some of them will be saved.”

Now, that’s not too hard to swallow.

About my “boohoey” remark, I considered that later in the day and realized that yes, I am thankful for the Trinity’s sorrow over our sins, and am thankful that Mary prays fervently to her Son for sinners to be granted forgiveness, being repentant, and for “prodigal sons” to be brought back to Christ and persevere as saintly people. So, I apologize.

 

[jeffreedy789]

thanks bob. i appreciate that.

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

jeffreedy789:

michaeltdoyle posted - 'How do you know you’re “entirely deserving of hell”? ’

john chapter 3 makes it pretty clear to me, along with bits of the psalms (there is none righteous, no not one), and the fact that i know my life and how utterly deserving i am of eternal punishment.

Not being righteous and “entirely deserving of hell” are two different standards by far. A kid stealing cookies is not righteous, but plunge hiim into hell?

I am just trying to understand, not to be argumentative. Thanks for dialoguing with me.

 

[carol_marie]

*Carol Marie, Your post sounds like a typical Protestant “faith without works” statement. Don’t you think one has to do more than just belive in Jesus?

My Goodness, Satan “believes” in Jesus. Satan saw Him.

Exporter,
These are two totally different issues. I was discussing that salvation and forgivness of sins is found only in Jesus, not in a “devotion” to a religion that rejects the work He did on the cross. I said nothing about “faith without works.” which I don’t believe. I **WAS **an evangelical - past tense. I am currently enrolled in RCIA. I take my loyalty to Jesus with me though and I will never ignore His words or deny the life saving work he did on the cross. As other posters said, No salvation apart from Jesus is both Evangelical AND Catholic because it’s BIBLICAL.

 

[Mijoy2]

darwindidntknow:

As an Evangelical myself, I certainly believe this. As for the ignorance thing- you have to ignore some pretty key passages in Scripture to say that it is true. Purgatory isn’t mentioned in the Bible either!

DarwinDidntKnow, you seemed to have missed my point. I’m not necassarily saying invicible ignorance applies to those who read Scripture and ignore it. I’m say invicible ignorance may apply to those who either have never had the opportunity to read it, or those who never had the opportunity to realize it’s Truth. The later being much more common.

If one takes the stand that The Bible is there for the reading, and those who chose not to read it are worthy of Hell, one must consider that the person who is chosing not to read it, has quite possible never had adaquet instruction of it’s Truth. Therefore it must be considered that this person has no genuine reason to believe the Bible is any more or less Truth then The Koran, or the Book of Mormon, or Moby Dick for that matter. You cannot just assume (in my opinion) that a person has some inherent knowleddge that the Bible is Truth and therefore is culpable if he/she ignores it.

From a pure objective standpoint why should a person who has had no religion in thier life what-so-ever (no family encouragement, no encouragement from the secular world etc) be expected to somehow believe the Holy Bible (OT and NT) is any different from any other religious belief in terms of Truth? Wouldn’t it be logical to think that the first trusted representative of any relgion (let’s say Islam), that encountered that person first, would direct thier beliefs. Quite possibly to the end of this persons life? I believe people are inherently loyal, therefore once a part of a religion they inherently fight for said religion. We (Christians) do it all the time. I simply can’t believe that in such a hypothetical situation, we believe in a God who would say, “well even though it is no fault of your own, it’s now time for you to burn for eternity”.

This can’t be our Faith. It simply cannot be. Attach a real person to this hypothetical case, someone you know, someone you love.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Mijoy, have you ever considered the gospel passage where Jesus has separated the sheep and the goats, and says to the sheep, “Enter into the kingdom of heaven. For I was hungry, and you gave me food; thirsty and you gave me drink, naked and you clothed me; sick and in prison and you visited me.” And the sheep said, “But Lord, WHEN did we see you hungry, and feed you? Thirsty, and gave you drink? Naked, and clothed you?” And Jesus answered them, “I assure you, as often as you did this for the you DID IT FOR ME.”

C.S. Lewis also addresses this topic in several of his books. In “The Last Battle”, the final chronicle of Narnia, a young warrior who serves Tash–the devil–has been taken to heaven. Aslan (Christ) speaks to him, as the young man is very confused. Aslan explains that, “all the good that you did, you did for me, even though you thought you were doing it for Tash. And all the evil that has been done, even if it has been DONE IN MY NAME, was done for Tash.” In essence, the young warrior has been serving GOD even though he was ignorant of God (in the person of Aslan) and only “knew” a false God.

We know from St. Paul that we must “work out our salvation in fear and trembling”. We also know that we are called on to spread the good news of the gospel.

I’d say that a little less “speculation” on how we think GOD has “fallen short” by His (implied WICKED) “creation of people who will be damned for eternity” should be replaced by a little more humility (we’re judging GOD?), a little more TRUST (His eye is on the sparrow, even, and certainly far more on us), and a lot more LOVE.

 

[Mijoy2]

Tantum ergo:

I’d say that a little less “speculation” on how we think GOD has “fallen short” by His (implied WICKED) “creation of people who will be damned for eternity” should be replaced by a little more humility (we’re judging GOD?), a little more TRUST (His eye is on the sparrow, even, and certainly far more on us), and a lot more LOVE.

Tantum ergo, I truly appreciate this (as well as the comments on Lewis of whom I have tremendous admiration). However I am not sure exactly what you were saying in the above quote.

It almost sounds like you are suggesting to me that I have suggested that God has possibly “fallen short” on His design by His “creation of people who will be damned for eternity”. In fact I am suggesting just the opposite. I am stating that if a loving God exists this simply cannot be the case. I am suggesting just what you have stated above. In other words we are in agreement. My Hope is that this in fact can’t be true. It can’t be true because we have hope that our God is a loving God of Mercy and perfect righteousness.

Possibly you are implying that I should not be concerning myself with such matters. On this point I’d like to agree with you. However how can I not concern myself with such matters when so many Christians / Catholics (probably more intune to scripture then myself where I am a fairly new revert) hammer into my conscienceness that these things (so many good people going to Hell) is in fact the case.

To summarize, I am is not calling into question the “TRUST” I have for the God I have grown to believe in. It is not that I am not humbling myself before Him and that I am questioning His motives. Not at all.

With such belief Philosophies present amongst so many Christians, it is not the Goodness of God I painfully question (because I know He is perfectly Good by our teachings). It is His existance that these philosophies call me to question.

Hope I was articulate enough for you to understand my point (and the difference).

 

[carol_marie]

Mijoy2,
You sound like a very tenderhearted person which is a wonderful quality which is why I’m sure it’s a struggle for you to understand how “good people” could be sent to hell. I’m wondering who YOU think hell is for?

 

[Shibboleth]

Hopefully in this week or the next I will be starting a thread on the Lutheran views of Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory.

 

[The_Barrister]

Beware of Feeneyism.

Remember, all we know is what God has revealed to us - but he has *not * revealed *all * (Deuteronomy 29:29: “The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law”).

It would be presumptious of us to believe that ONLY Catholics get to Heaven, just as it would be equally presumptious of us to believe that EVERYONE goes to Heaven.

What we know is that God has given us a *sure * plan to get to Heaven through the Catholic Church, and that we need to evangelize all nations to spread the good word of Christ’s salvation through the Church He established.

 

[buffalo]

Br. Rich SFO:

The Catholic Church teaches that Salvation is through Christ! Period! Christ established the Catholic Church. It is both a Divine and a human institution, both visible and invisible Corporal as well as spiritual. A person who is totally ignorant of the Catholic Church and of Christ can obtain Salvation, through Christ, even though they have not had the opportunity to come to know Christ.

Provided they would have embraced Him had they known about Him.

Really, i don’t understand why this is so hard. Christ started his one and only Catholic Church. He said He is the way. He said the road is narrow. He said that many will not travel it. You want to go to heaven and spend eternity with Him then you have to pass through Christ (Catholic Church) to get there. Seems easy enough.

How this is accomplished is yet another matter.

It’s His church. He makes the rules, Why do we think we have the right to go to heaven on our terms?

 

[Shibboleth]

Luke 12:47 – 48
47"That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

Rom 1:19 –23
19 For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them.
20 Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse;
21 for although they knew God they did not accord him glory as God or give him thanks. Instead, they became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds were darkened.
22 While claiming to be wise, they became fools
23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for the likeness of an image of mortal man or of birds or of four-legged animals or of snakes.

Acts 14:16-17
16In the past, he let all nations go their own way. 17Yet he has not left himself without testimony: He has shown kindness by giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons; he provides you with plenty of food and fills your hearts with joy."

 

[buffalo]

carol marie:

Mijoy2,
You sound like a very tenderhearted person which is a wonderful quality which is why I’m sure it’s a struggle for you to understand how “good people” could be sent to hell. I’m wondering who YOU think hell is for?

How do we know what “good” people really are. We cannot see what God can see. He alone knows what is in their hearts and minds.

I would think that this is another wrong use of judgementalism. If you can’t judge me then you cannot judge me either way (good or bad). You can only judge my actions.

 

[JGC]

817 In fact, “in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.”[269] The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism[270] - do not occur without human sin:
Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.[271]

818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers … All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”[272]

819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth”[273] are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.”[274] Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,[275] and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”[276]

All the above is relevant here as is a lot more of the CCC. But the part highlighted in bold in particular should leave no-one in doubt about what the Church teaches about the possibility of salvation in other Churches and eccesial communities.

 

[QuicumqueVult]

One thing I’d like to add. Nobody is saved except through Jesus Christ. One may have invincible ignorance of the historical Person Jesus of Nazareth, and one may even know *about * the historical Jesus and not know His significance – i.e., inculpably – through lack of information or misinformation – and still benefit from His atonement. Theoretically, thus one can be an “Anonymous Christian” (Karl Rahner). Some early Church Fathers posited logos spermatikoi (spermatikoi tou logou?), seeds of the Logos (Word, the Son, the Second Person of the Trinity) present in all human societies, the only perfect one – containing the fullness of revelation – being the Church.

The point is that *knowledge * is not necessarily the sine qua non of salvation. But Jesus is. Buddha cannot save, nor Mohammed, etc. But Buddhists and Muslims can be saved, solely because of Christ, barring culpable disbelief.

I think I’m on solid orthodox ecumenical grounds here, but critique is welcome.

 

[buffalo]

QuicumqueVult:

One thing I’d like to add. Nobody is saved except through Jesus Christ. One may have invincible ignorance of the historical Person Jesus of Nazareth, and one may even know *about * the historical Jesus and not know His significance (non-culcably – through lack of information or misinformation), and still benefit from His atonement. One can even be an “Anonymous Christian” (Rahner). Some early Church Fathers posited logos spermatikoi, seeds of the Logos (Word, the Son, the Second Person of the Trinity) present in all human societies, the only perfect one being the Church.

The point is that *knowledge * is not necessarily the sine qua non of salvation. But Jesus is. Buddha cannot save, nor Mohammed, etc. But Buddhists and Muslims can be saved, solely because of Christ, barring culpable disbelief.

I think I’m on solid orthodox ecumenical grounds here, but critique is welcome.

Right you are!!!

 

[Mijoy2]

carol marie:

Mijoy2,
You sound like a very tenderhearted person which is a wonderful quality which is why I’m sure it’s a struggle for you to understand how “good people” could be sent to hell. I’m wondering who YOU think hell is for?

And I think you attempt to provide your thoughts and answers from a genuine and charitable perspective. And for that I thank you and welcome your views.

Tough question to answer in a few words. Funny you should ask because just today I was contimplating who Heaven is for. Therefore I guess Hell is for the remainder. So if I may, please allow me to answer the question on a very high level of whom I believe (like to think) Heaven is for. I qualify this by saying this my opinion from a probably very uneducated perspective.

Heaven is an eternity of peace and happiness in the presence of God. Being in the presence of God is peace and happiness. Heaven is a perfect place with perfect love. A love that we can’t totally comprehend. Where we are with others of whom to love and be loved by. To attain Heaven for ourselves we must fit the mold if you will. Meaning we must be perfectly loving ourself. Of course we cannot attain this on our own, we need Gods help (when we don’t fully attain it Purgatory does the rest of the purging). Of this we need the Grace of God. I believe (like to think) God grants this Grace over and over again to those who, within the confines of thier free-will, strive for (by repenting and subsequently striving) becoming worthy (to the extent of which they can) of such a paradise.

In other words Heaven is not a wonderful place of which we go to be happy, Heaven is a wonderful entity of which are a part. Like the Church, but perfect. The bride of our Lord.

Therefore Hell, is for those who refuse to chose to be a part of Heaven by not being willing, within the confines of thier free-will, to become humble and lose thier pride. Of which I happen to believe, there are very few.

What I do not believe (or do not like to think) is that Hell is for those of us who were at the wrong place at the wrong time. Of which there are many.