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aimee
Guest
I don’t think I’ve heard it explained quite that way…very good.
Your church is lucky to have you as their priest.
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Your church is lucky to have you as their priest.
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
Hmmmm… you mean like the words of Jesus Christ on the Cross concerning those who rejected and crucified Him: “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.” (Luk 23:34) Seems like a plea for those invincibly ignorant to me.
This, by no means, is to suggest that the Catholic Church teaches that all kinds of ignorance is invincible. St. Thomas Aquinas teaches that ignorance is a sin. Certainly, those who are ignorant in this sense are not excused of all guilt. However, St. Thomas Aquinas likewise asserts that those who act out of invincible ignorance do not sin. There’s distinction in Catholic doctrine that those who tend toward universalism and indifference seem to disregard.
But to assert that Christ would not forgive those who “do not know what they are doing” is a bit ridiculous, given his prayer in Luke 23:34.
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Mijoy2
Guest
Answers such as this help me keep my Faith.
Thank you for posting.
I
itsjustdave1988
Guest
The Jesuits taught me many moons ago …
Invincible Ignorance: ignorance which a person cannot reasonably overcome given time, opportunity, and talent available; destroys the voluntary character an action.
Vincible Ignorance: can be reasonably overcome given time, opportunity, and talent available; may diminish but not destroy voluntary character of an action
Affected Ignorance: deliberately sought ignorance; does not destroy or diminish voluntary character or responsibility for an act. In fact, it may increase responsibility, at least to the degree that it adds malice to the act
According to St. Thomas Aquinas:
Invincible Ignorance: ignorance which a person cannot reasonably overcome given time, opportunity, and talent available; destroys the voluntary character an action.
Vincible Ignorance: can be reasonably overcome given time, opportunity, and talent available; may diminish but not destroy voluntary character of an action
Affected Ignorance: deliberately sought ignorance; does not destroy or diminish voluntary character or responsibility for an act. In fact, it may increase responsibility, at least to the degree that it adds malice to the act
According to St. Thomas Aquinas:
E
enanneman
Guest
I’ve been following this thread with interest and wondered if someone could provide a catechetical reference on the possibility of salvation outside the Catholic Church. I believe it is stated in the Cathechism, but I can’t find it easily.
Thanks and God bless!
Eric
Thanks and God bless!
Eric
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
Some paragraphs from the Catechism of the Catholic Church on ignorance as a sin and ignorance that diminishes the guilt of sin:
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
[1735](javascript
penWindow(‘cr/1735.htm’)
Imputability and responsibility for an action can be diminished or even nullified by ignorance, inadvertence, duress, fear, habit, inordinate attachments, and other psychological or social factors.
[1736](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1736.htm’) Every act directly willed is imputable to its author … An action can be indirectly voluntary when it results from negligence regarding something one should have known or done: for example, an accident arising from ignorance of traffic laws.
1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.
[1791](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1791.htm’) This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.
[1792](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1792.htm’) Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.
[1793](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1793.htm’) If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.
1801 Conscience can remain in ignorance or make erroneous judgments. Such ignorance and errors are not always free of guilt.
[1859](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1859.htm’) Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.
[1860](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1860.htm’) Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
[1735](javascript
penWindow(‘cr/1735.htm’) Imputability and responsibility for an action can be diminished or even nullified by ignorance, inadvertence, duress, fear, habit, inordinate attachments, and other psychological or social factors.[1736](javascript
penWindow(‘cr/1736.htm’) Every act directly willed is imputable to its author … An action can be indirectly voluntary when it results from negligence regarding something one should have known or done: for example, an accident arising from ignorance of traffic laws.1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.
[1791](javascript
penWindow(‘cr/1791.htm’) This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.[1792](javascript
penWindow(‘cr/1792.htm’) Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.[1793](javascript
penWindow(‘cr/1793.htm’) If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.1801 Conscience can remain in ignorance or make erroneous judgments. Such ignorance and errors are not always free of guilt.
[1859](javascript
penWindow(‘cr/1859.htm’) Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.[1860](javascript
penWindow(‘cr/1860.htm’) Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
As for the section that speaks of “no salvation outside the Church”, see this article of the Catechism here:
scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm
scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
Reformed Bob,
For example, from St. Thomas Aquinas,
Catholicism asserts the efficacy of non-sacramental baptism by martyrdom and desire, even if the desire is merely implicit. Sacramental baptism is necessary, as in “most fitting”, but the sacraments, while they are certainly the normative means of grace, certainly the signs established by Christ and the apostles, they are not the only means of grace. God is not limited by the sacraments He created.
CCC 1258 … the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.
Pope Pius X:
You misunderstand what the Catholic Church means by “necessity.”
For example, from St. Thomas Aquinas,
My understanding is that baptism is absolutely necessary, “as food is necessary for the preservation of human life.” However, when considering if sacramental baptism is absolutely necessary, the Catholic Church likewise asserts that “**other ways were not wanting to God.” **
Catholicism asserts the efficacy of non-sacramental baptism by martyrdom and desire, even if the desire is merely implicit. Sacramental baptism is necessary, as in “most fitting”, but the sacraments, while they are certainly the normative means of grace, certainly the signs established by Christ and the apostles, they are not the only means of grace. God is not limited by the sacraments He created.
CCC 1258 … the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.
Pope Pius X:
St. Thomas Aquinas:
D
darwindidntknow
Guest
19For the truth about God is known to them instinctively. God has put this knowledge in their hearts. 20From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God.
Romans 1:19-20
What makes us think that we can say to God “It’s not fair that I am going to hell!”? First of all, who gave us our definition of fair and unfair? God. Secondly, we the created have no right to say to the Creator that something is fair or unfair because it would be perfectly “fair” for God to send us all to hell at this moment. It is pure grace that we live in such a world and that we are given the opportunity to live with Him for eternity even after we have repeatedly spit in His face (metaphorically speaking). We all have been given a preknowledge of God and all have chosen to desire other things instead of Him. That is sin. So none of us can claim ignorance. And even if we could, how dare we put God on trial and say it’s unfair of Him not to let people in.
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
I don’t think this, so I guess I’m not among the “us” that you speak of.
I am simply telling you what God’s Church teaches based upon God’s Word, and since they authentically speak for Him, I trust that “invincible ignorance” is not a sin. Christ is my judge and I accept his just judgement. I also note that he was willing to forgive those who rejected him and crucified Him because “they do not know what they are doing.” To deny that Christ can forgive the ignorant is, in itself, ignorance of Scripture.
The quote you provide from Romans is affirming that “no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man.” (CCC 1860) This too is Catholic teaching.
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enanneman
Guest
Thanks, itsjustdave1988. Paragraph 847 states it quite succinctly:
“Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.”
Thank you very much!
“Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.”
Thank you very much!
C
carol_marie
Guest
Ok, then humor me by responding to this please. I’ve heard it said that when talking about heaven to Catholics, they let everyone in… Jews, Muslims, Buddists, Atheists, Prostestants etc. Everyone except the Catholic who skipped mass on Sunday and choked on his ham sandwhich at lunch. He goes straight to hell.
I’m not trying to be facetious here… I’m just asking if most Catholics are only comfortable with the thought that only Catholics who’ve died with mortal sin are sent to hell?
I’m not trying to be facetious here… I’m just asking if most Catholics are only comfortable with the thought that only Catholics who’ve died with mortal sin are sent to hell?
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
carol marie,
Every person who dies impenitent in mortal sin goes to hell, whether they are Catholic or not.
Every person who dies in original sin, goes to hell too.
Those who are sacramentally Baptized are forgiven of all past sin.
The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism.
For sins committed after baptism, contrition remits all sins, provided that along with it there is the desire, at least implicit, of going to confession.
Is that a fair summary of Divine and Catholic faith? What about this seems bothersome to you? Doesn’t the above apply to everyone, or does it just apply only to those registered in a Catholic parish?
Every person who dies impenitent in mortal sin goes to hell, whether they are Catholic or not.
Every person who dies in original sin, goes to hell too.
Those who are sacramentally Baptized are forgiven of all past sin.
The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism.
For sins committed after baptism, contrition remits all sins, provided that along with it there is the desire, at least implicit, of going to confession.
Is that a fair summary of Divine and Catholic faith? What about this seems bothersome to you? Doesn’t the above apply to everyone, or does it just apply only to those registered in a Catholic parish?
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
Furthermore, whether you are a Catholic or non-Catholic, for a sin to be mortal three things are required: (1) Grave matter, (2) Full advertence, (3) Perfect consent of the will.
- The matter is grave when the thing under examination is seriously contrary to the laws of God and His Church.
- Full advertence in sinning is had when we know perfectly well that we are doing a serious evil.
- Perfect consent of the will is verified in sinning when we deliberately determine to do a thing although we know that thing to be sinful.
C
carol_marie
Guest
I
itsjustdave1988
Guest
carol marie,
You are trying to summarize Catholic doctrine by that one paragraph. That’s not the total of Catholic teaching on the matter.
Those who are not baptized are going to hell, unless they at least have an implicit desire for baptism. This too is the teaching of the Catechism. (CCC 1257-1258). Another is: “no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man.” (CCC 1860)
It is incorrect to attempt to formulate Catholic teaching by extracting one paragraph and wielding it as a “proof text” to the exclusion of the rest of it’s context.
The paragraph above states: “those too may achieve eternal salvation.” The key word here is “MAY.” It does not say, as it seems you presume, that they “WILL” achieve eternal salvation.
You are trying to summarize Catholic doctrine by that one paragraph. That’s not the total of Catholic teaching on the matter.
Those who are not baptized are going to hell, unless they at least have an implicit desire for baptism. This too is the teaching of the Catechism. (CCC 1257-1258). Another is: “no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man.” (CCC 1860)
It is incorrect to attempt to formulate Catholic teaching by extracting one paragraph and wielding it as a “proof text” to the exclusion of the rest of it’s context.
The paragraph above states: “those too may achieve eternal salvation.” The key word here is “MAY.” It does not say, as it seems you presume, that they “WILL” achieve eternal salvation.
M
metal1633
Guest
carol marie:
enanneman:
“Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.”
Dave,
The above is what I don’t understand. It sounds like a great big pass to all those who are not Catholic but “seek God with a sincere heart… try to do his will…of their conscience…” OK, so what if “their own conscience” doesn’t dictate that having sex outside of marriage is wrong… so that’s what they do. That’s a mortal sin right? Well according to the above, that mortal sin doesn’t count because they were oblivious to that rule but you just said that mortal sin keeps one out of heaven so how does that work exactally? Because it sure seems like only Catholics are going to end up in hell since the rest of us just need to follow our own conscience and seek good with a sincere heart.
Yuo missed it. Read it again…
MOVED BY HIS GRACE, MOVED BY HIS GRACE, MOVED BY HIS GRACE.
One who is moved by His Grace will NOT have sex outside Marriage. Thier conscience, moved by His Grace, will tell them that it is wrong.
C
carol_marie
Guest
**Ok, so let’s go back to the original question… why would God send entire nations to hell? How could a loving God condem those who didn’t know about Jesus. And throughout this thread it seemed to be the consensus that God would not do that. If a Muslim was a good Muslim and tried to please God through his faith then he got a pass. Same with a Jew, Atheist, Jehovah’s Witness - you name it. If, through no fault of their own they THOUGHT they were pleasing to God he MAY (and it sure sounds like everyone assumes, because he is loving & merciful - WILL) extend the grace of Christ Jesus to them, even though they never believed in Him. But now we have the mortal sin thing… Mortal sin keeps someone out of heaven right? But you’re trying to say that the Muslim, Jew etc. will be given the grace to know they shouldn’t have sex outside of marriage? OK, I’ll give you that…it’s possible I suppose… but they don’t know they should be at mass and skipping mass is a mortal sin. So… then what? They get a pass on the no mass thing since they don’t know better but the Catholic who skips doesn’t, correct? So… bottom line: Why be Catholic?? It sounds like you are held to such a higher standard… why bother? If you go to heaven only by following ALL THE RULES wouldn’t it have been better to remain ignorant? **
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Mijoy2
Guest
carol marie said:
Carol Marie,
There are people here who can probably answer your very good question here much better then I, but allow me please to attempt to extend my understanding.
I am a revert Catholic. (I’m married so sex outside of marriage doesn’t apply to me but allow me to answer it assuming I were single, hence using this example). If single, one or two years ago I would very likely have been a candidate for sex outside of marriage. Between then and now I have done a great deal of research of Catholic doctrine, reading, examining my heart and conscience and praying. Throughout that time I come to learn the Truth regarding the teaching of the Catholic church that sex outside of marriage is in direct opposition to Gods plan for us. Beyond that I believe I have a clear understanding of why, adn I can see the harm and the evil in such an activity that I was blind to before. Therefore, from what I know and believe now, if the hypothetical single me, were to have sex outside of marriage it very well could be a mortal sin.
The issue is not; Gosh darn I cannot have sex outside of marriage cuz I am Catholic and thus it’s against the rules. Geesh I wish I were not Catholic and therefore I could claim ignorance and do as I chose in this regard. The issue is; knowing what I know now, and feeling as I do now, I do not wish to offend God and deny my beliefs, sacrifice my integrity and destroy the relationship I have with the Lord all to succum to a fleshly desire of which I know is wrong. I’d be turning my back on my beliefs and I’d be turning my back on the Lord. The person of another religion or another belief would possibly NOT be doing this. Therefore I’d be the one creating the greater evil.
The point is, that now, the hypothetical me, would not commit this sin. Not because I’d be breaking the rules, because I do not want to, there is too much to lose and too little to gain. It’s a no contest.
S
Shibboleth
Guest
One that is moved by God’s Grace will without a doubt do good deeds. It is impossible for one not to. But remember that we are all sinners and will continue to sin even when we are in God’s Grace even though we know it to be wrong.
Peter Rejected God three times. He knew that it was wrong to do so and yet he did… His rejection was one of verbal action and not necessarily of the heart.
One who is in God’s Grace may still have sex outside of marriage but God’s Grace will not direct them to do so… in fact it will encourage them not to… all of our works good or bad are filthy rags to God.
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