Genesis v Evolution

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“Come on, look youself into a mirror. Human racial features are a by product of evolution. Thats why you can spot a Scandinavian or a subsaharan african inmediatly”

With all do respect, you don’t know what you are talking about. The features of a Scandiavian or a sub-Saharan African are the result of separation and inbreeding. This is how various breeds of dogs and horses are developed. In the case of humans, it was the natural result of separation from other groups, and reproduction within a limited gene pool.

Evolution is a fairy tale for grownups.
 
Mr.Ex_Nihilo said:
Could either of you actually respond to my request here…
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If humans have an immortal soul, then humans prior to Adam an Eve had immortal souls. Populations evolve together; there is no sudden dividing line between non-human parents and human children.

Petrus
 
abu_kamoon said:
Evolution is a fairy tale for grownups.
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Abu kamoon, it’s sad to see you parroting tired lines from hackneyed creationist literature. Your quotation from Kent Hovind – who is now in prison for fraud – is a complete fabrication. Why don’t you try thinking for yourself?

Petrus
 
"Evolution(ism) is a fairy tale for grownups."

History of that quote, normally given as “Evolutionism is a fairy tale for grown-ups. This theory has helped nothing in the progress of science. It is useless.”

From The Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique (or The National Center for Scientific Research), dated March 3, 1995.

=====

The new director general of the CNRS *, Mr. Guy Aubert, has given me your letter of December 6, 1994, in which you requested several points of information concerning the quotations by French scientists, concerning the theory of evolution.

Here is the information I was able to gather:

The beginning of the quotation, “Evolution is a fairy tale for adults” is not from Bounoure but from Jean Rostand, a much more famous French biologist (he was a member of the Academy of Sciences of the French Academy). The precise quotation is as follows: “Transformism is a fairy tale for adults.” (Age Nouveau, [a French periodical] February 1959, p. 12). But Rostand has also written that “Transformism may be considered as accepted, and no scientist, no philosopher, no longer discusses [or questions] the fact of evolution.” (L’Evolution des Especes i.e., The Evolution of the Species ], Hachette, p. 190). Jean Rostand was … an atheist.

The [end] of the quotation of Professor Bounoure to which you allude is taken from his book, Determinism and Finality, edited by Flammarion, 1957, p. 79. The precise quotation is the following: “That, by this, evolutionism would appear as a theory without value, is confirmed also pragmatically. A theory must not be required to be true, said Mr. H. Poincare, more or less, it must be required to be useable. Indeed, none of the progress made in biology depends even slightly on a theory, the principles of which * are nevertheless filling every year volumes of books, periodicals, and congresses with their discussions and their disagreements.”

…

Very truly yours,
Marie-Antoinette de Lumley

Phil P**
 
edwest2 said:
Evolutionary theory devalues the human person. It exists outside of any supernatural influence, and therefore, reduces man to a mechanism, along with all life.
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I don’t know why I come back to this thread and watch people talk past each other day after day. But I feel compelled to point out that the quote above is the crux of the issue. So…

Ed, can you explain why you insist that evolutionary theory is incompatible with divine influence? Some biologists are atheists, maybe even most. But most **people **who believe in evolution, include most theologists, do **not **think it is incompatible with divine influence. You state this as a given that compels your conclusion, but it is not clear that it is given. Why do you insist that it must be?
 
As a Catholic, I am an individual and part of the Body of Christ. In the document “Human Persons Created in the Image of God,” Humani Generis is referred to, which states, that for Catholics, there was an Adam and an Eve, not populations.

And though, at the time, Cardinal Ratzinger has recognized the work of scientists as regards human origins, he immediately adds the directly connected point that we are created, something the theory of evolution cannot state on its own. Part 69: “Any evolutionary mechanism that is contingent can only be contingent because God made it so.”

I do not believe in opinions, per se, and I do not believe in a constant, ongoing process of change as inevitable, especially as it pertains to spiritual matters and divine revelation. The sentence I quoted is a fact, just as the life, death and ressurection of Jesus Christ is a fact. He, as God and man, came as the result of an actual act committed by our first parents. That is a fact. That establishes who we, as Catholics, are. That is history.

God bless,
Ed
 
**😃

Is Theistic Evolution Truly Plausible?

… from the article…**
I see no reason to jump through so many hoops just to try to reconcile the Catholic Faith with a theory that was specifically designed to explain the origins of man without any reference to God. It seems to me that theistic evolutionists are in a corner: They must either abandon the teachings of the Church (God forbid!), abandon the theory of evolution, or else continue holding a very illogical position—one that neo-Darwinian evolutionists may very well scorn and laugh at, and that faithful, rational Catholics clearly ought to avoid.
So, is the theory of evolution possible? Yes, in a very restricted sense—for Adam only, but not for Eve or any other human being; for his body, but not for his soul; through a direct intervention of God from pre-existent living matter, but not through a purely natural process that would in any way make another creature his parent—it may be remotely possible. But is it truly plausible? Most assuredly, not. Therefore, I reject the theory of evolution.
 
buffalo said:
😃 I see no reason to jump through so many hoops just to try to reconcile the Catholic Faith with a theory that was specifically designed to explain the origins of man without any reference to God. But is it truly plausible? Most assuredly, not. Therefore, I reject the theory of evolution.

Buffalo, Darwin developed his theory not intentionally to explain the origins of humanity without God, but rather to account historically for the diversity of species. He saw this as a developmental process, not as a miraculous and instantaneous creation. The fact that God is not invoked as a scientific explanation in evolution no more implies “atheism” than does the refusal to invoke God to explain why the moon orbits the earth, or why hydrogen and oxygen combine to form water.

I respect your right to reject evolution as you wish, but if you ever decide to work credibly in a biological or related field you will have to offer a replacement theory that accounts for (1) anatomical homology, (2) apparent genetic histories, and (3) the undeniable fossil record.

Prayerfully yours,
Petrus
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edwest2 said:
Evolutionary theory devalues the human person. It exists outside of any supernatural influence, and therefore, reduces man to a mechanism, along with all life.

God bless,
Ed
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Hi Ed 🙂

I think you need to read this document from the Vatican which I wholeheartedly agree with. You should know by now that I’m the Vatican’s little darling reporter:D The Pope and his Scientific Advisory Committee love me! :blessyou:

ADDRESS OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI
TO THE PARTICIPANTS OF THE PLENARY ASSEMBLY
OF THE CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH
Clementine Hall
Friday, 10 February 2006

*Your Eminences, Venerable Brothers in the Episcopate and in the Presbyterate, Dear Brothers and Sisters,

I am pleased to meet the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith at the end of its Plenary Meeting, a Congregation over which I had the joy to preside for more than 20 years through the mandate of my Predecessor, the venerable Pope John Paul II.

Your faces also make me think of all those who collaborated with the Dicastery in those years: I remember them all with gratitude and affection. Indeed, I cannot but recall with a certain emotion the very intense and fruitful period which I spent with the Congregation, whose task is to promote and safeguard the doctrine on faith and morals in the entire Catholic Church (cf. Pastor Bonus, n. 48).

Faith has a fundamental importance in the life of the Church, because the gift that God makes of himself in Revelation is fundamental and God’s gift of himself is accepted through faith.

Here the importance of your Congregation comes to the fore. Through its service to the whole Church and to the Bishops in particular, as teachers of the faith and pastors, it is precisely called in a spirit of collegiality to encourage and to recall the centrality of the Catholic faith in its authentic expression.

Whenever, moreover, the perception of this centrality weakens, the fabric of ecclesial life loses its original brightness and wears thin: it degenerates into sterile activism or is reduced to political expediency with a worldly flavour.

If, instead, the truth of the faith is placed simply and decisively at the heart of Christian existence, human life is innovated and revived by a love that knows no rest or bounds, as I also had the opportunity to recall in my recent Encyclical Letter Deus Caritas Est.

Charity, like love that renews all things, moves from God’s Heart to the Heart of Jesus Christ, and through his Spirit across the world. This love is born from the encounter with Christ in faith: “Being Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction” (Deus caritas est, n. 1).

Jesus Christ is the Personified Truth who attracts the world to himself. The light that shines out from Jesus is the splendour of the truth. Every other truth is a fragment of the Truth that he is, and refers to him.

Jesus is the Pole Star of human freedom: without him it loses its sense of direction, for without the knowledge of the truth, freedom degenerates, becomes isolated and is reduced to sterile arbitration. With him, freedom is rediscovered, it is recognized to have been created for our good and is expressed in charitable actions and behaviour.

Therefore, Jesus gives men and women total familiarity with the truth and continuously invites them to live in it. It is truth offered as a reality that restores the human being and at the same time surpasses him and towers above him, as a Mystery that embraces and at the same time exceeds the impulse of his intelligence.

And nothing succeeds as well as love for the truth in impelling the human mind towards unexplored horizons. Jesus Christ, who is the fullness of the truth, draws to himself the heart of each person, enlarges it and fills it with joy. Indeed, truth alone can take possession of the mind and make it rejoice to the full.

It is this joy that increases the dimensions of the human heart, lifting it anew from the narrowness of selfishness and rendering it capable of authentic love. It is the experience of this joy that moves and attracts the human person to free adoration, not to servile prostration but to bow with heartfelt respect before the Truth he has encountered.

(continued in my next message)*

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2006/february/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20060210_doctrine-faith_en.html

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/b...f_ben-xvi_spe_20060210_doctrine-faith_en.html

Part 1 of 2
 
Part 2 of 2
ADDRESS OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI
TO THE PARTICIPANTS OF THE PLENARY ASSEMBLY
OF THE CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITHClementine Hall
Friday, 10 February 2006
edwest2 said:
Evolutionary theory devalues the human person. It exists outside of any supernatural influence, and therefore, reduces man to a mechanism, along with all life.
God bless,
Ed
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*Thus, service to the faith, which is a witness to the One who is the entire Truth, is also a service to joy, and this is the joy that Christ desires to spread in the world: it is the joy of faith in him, of truth that is communicated through him, of salvation that comes from him! It is this joy we feel in our hearts when we kneel with faith to worship Jesus!

This love for truth also inspires and directs the Christian approach to the contemporary world and the evangelizing commitment of the Church, topics which you have taken time to discuss at your Plenary Assembly.

The Church welcomes with joy the authentic breakthroughs of human knowledge and recognizes that evangelization also demands a proper grasp of the horizons and the challenges that modern knowledge is unfolding. In fact, the great progress of scientific knowledge that we saw during the last century has helped us understand the mystery of creation better and has profoundly marked the awareness of all peoples.

However, scientific advances have sometimes been so rapid as to make it very difficult to discern whether they are compatible with the truths about man and the world that God has revealed. At times, certain assertions of scientific knowledge have even been opposed to these truths. This may have given rise to a certain confusion among the faithful and may also have made the proclamation and acceptance of the Gospel difficult.

Consequently, every study that aims to deepen the knowledge of the truths discovered by reason is vitally important, in the certainty that there is no “competition of any kind between reason and faith” (Fides et Ratio, n. 17).

We must have no fears about facing this challenge: Jesus Christ is indeed the Lord of all creation and of all history. The believer knows well that “all things were created through him and for him… and in him all things hold together” (Col 1: 16, 17).

By continually deepening our knowledge of Christ, the centre of the cosmos and of history, we can show the men and women of our time that faith in him is important for humanity’s future: indeed, it is the accomplishment of all that is authentically human. Only in this perspective will we be able to give convincing answers to the person who is searching.

This commitment is crucially important for the proclamation and transmission of the faith in the contemporary world. Today, in fact, the task of evangelizing is an urgent priority and demands equal commitment.

The dialogue between faith and reason, religion and science, does not only make it possible to show people of our time the reasonableness of faith in God as effectively and convincingly as possible, but also to demonstrate that the definitive fulfilment of every authentic human aspiration rests in Jesus Christ. In this regard, a serious evangelizing effort cannot ignore the questions that arise also from today’s scientific and philosophical discoveries.

The desire for the truth is part of human nature itself. The whole of creation is an immense invitation to seek those responses that open human reason to the great response that it has always sought and awaited: "The truth of Christian Revelation, found in Jesus of Nazareth, enables all men and women to embrace the "mystery’ of their own life. As absolute truth, it summons human beings to be open to the transcendent, while respecting both their autonomy as creatures and their freedom. At this point, the relationship between freedom and truth is complete, and we understand the full meaning of the Lord’s words: “You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free’ (Jn 8: 32)” (Fides et Ratio, n. 15).

In this the Congregation finds the motive for its commitment and the horizon of its service. Your service to the fullness of the faith is a service to the truth, hence, to joy, a joy that rises from the depths of the heart, that flows from those abysses of love that Christ opened with his Heart pierced on the Cross and that his Spirit pours out into the world with inexhaustible generosity. From this point of view, your doctrinal ministry can appropriately be defined as “pastoral”.
[snip]*
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2006/february/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20060210_doctrine-faith_en.html
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/b...f_ben-xvi_spe_20060210_doctrine-faith_en.html
 
As someone who has been blessed by God regarding spiritual things, and that come from Him, not me, I have had the privilege of witnessing to people about Christ. The theory of evolution is understood by most people as being without God. A friend of mine, when I asked him if he believed in God, replied, “I believe in evolution.” So where is the truth in this statement?

From the article above, “Every other truth is a fragment of the Truth that he is, and refers to him.” Evolutionary theory does not refer to Christ in any way. Darwin’s finches and variation in their beak size was later found to be a temporary change due to changing environmental conditions, and a built-in ability, having nothing to do with evolution. Were there dinosaurs in years past, of course, but they died, just as we are losing species every year now.

Evolution is not a witness for or about the greater truth which is Christ.

God bless,
Ed
 
edwest2 said:
Evolutionary theory does not refer to Christ in any way. Evolution is not a witness for or about the greater truth which is Christ.God bless,Ed
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Ed, gravitational and plate tectonic theory do not refer to Christ in any way. Gravity and plate tectonics are not witnesses for or about the greater truth which is Christ. God bless, Petrus.
 
edwest2 said:
As someone who has been blessed by God regarding spiritual things, and that come from Him, not me, I have had the privilege of witnessing to people about Christ. Evolution is not a witness for or about the greater truth which is Christ. God bless, Ed
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Ed, although I disagree with your conclusions about evolution, I admire your consistency. Young Earth Creationism (of the 6,000-10,000 year variety) doesn’t have to deal with messy problems like how humans with “immortal souls” sprang from parents without them. All you have to do is posit that before the historical Adam and Eve in 4004 BCE, there were no humans – problem solved!

Theistic evolution has a very difficult problem reconciling the deep history of time and the long and seamless process of evolution with a theological view that all-humans-and-only-humans have immortal souls. It is something with which I will struggle prayerfully for years to come – reconciling the story of God’s loving purposes in Christ with what I know to be equally true about the four billion year history of life on earth. In some brief moments I envy your easier path – would that I could believe that life, science, and theology are as simple and uncomplicated as you believe them to be. You have my prayers for your journey in faith, as I ask you for prayers for mine.

Warm regards,
Petrus
 
Gravity is directly observable and verifiable.
Electricity is directly observable and verifiable.
Electrolysis is directly observable and verifiable.
Plate tectonics is directly observable and verifiable.

Evolution is not directly observable and verifiable. Please stick to the subject.

God is inextricably linked to all truth, including certain things that have happened in the past. Human persons are not defined by gravity or electricity or plate tectonics. They are defined by neo-Darwinism as bags of chemicals that respond to outside stimuli based on their genetic programming. The goal is successful reproduction, period. Nothing else.

Evolutionary theory as presented in the average biology textbook to the average teenager states that natural, and only natural, forces resulted in man, increased brain size, etc.

So, the average person, in an average town, does not believe that evolutionary biology has anything to do with God, wheras the Catholic Church teaches that all truth refers to Him.

God bless,
Ed
 
edwest2 said:
[edwest’s msg. 1031 referring to Wildleafblowers msg. 1029 and 1030 ]From the article above, “Every other truth is a fragment of the Truth that he is, and refers to him.” Evolutionary theory does not refer to Christ in any way. Ed
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Edwest, Pope Benedict XVI didn’t state in my msg 1029 or 1030 what you have stated in your message 1031, “Every other truth is a fragment of the Truth that he is, and refers to him.”

Keep in mind Ed that I have made a hard copy of what you have written in msg. 1031. And please rememember what the Pope has stated, " May the light of faith, expressed in its fullness and integrity, always illumine your work and be the “star” that guides you and helps you to direct human hearts to Christ!" (This was found at the end of Pope Benedict XVI’s ADDRESS TO THE PARTICIPANTS OF THE PLENARY ASSEMBLY OF THE CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH which I was unable to print due to space constraints.)
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2006/february/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20060210_doctrine-faith_en.html
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/b...f_ben-xvi_spe_20060210_doctrine-faith_en.html

The Theory of Evolution does refer to Christ! Read my message 964! Within that message I referred you to this link from the VATICAN. 🙂
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20060415_veglia-pasquale_en.html
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/b..._ben-xvi_hom_20060415_veglia-pasquale_en.html
 
When I witness to people, it is about Christ. As a Catholic, my worldview begins with the Word of God.

I like science, always have, but no matter how many documents I’m referred to, the answer is always, “Yeah, sure, you can tack God onto dat. But you ain’t gonna find no peered reviewed papers ta back you up. So it ain’t about God. Science is God now.”

God bless,
Ed
 
Orogeny said:
Do you disagree with that? Peace
Tim
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Well, Tim, the question of what an immortal soul is, and who has one, is not easy to resolve. You have argued that possessing an immortal soul does not depend on ever enjoying consciousness – fair enough. But would you argue that souls go with consciousnesses, or with genomes? Could one consciousness possess more than one genome? Or if there were two genomes in one person – as with a chimera – would there be two persons and two souls in one physical body?

Petrus
 
It’s been my experience that people who are asked “do you believe in God” generally believe they are being accosted by a fundie or JW or Mormon. So they say they believe in evolution to deflect the assault. I sure used to. That did not in any way mean i didn’t believe in God. It just means they don’t want to be bothered by someone who is gonna try to argue creationism.

The first thing I enquired about from Catholic friends and the Church itself before I signed on board was whether they believed in literal biblical creation. I was told NO by every single one of them from 4 different friends and a priest and a nun. I would never had joined the Church had it maintained that I had to swallow creationism as a tenet of faith. It should also be noted that all RCIA material was in agreement as well.

Thanks Ed for at least admitting its just what you want to believe. You have made it emminently clear that NO evidence will convince you, even the Popes, because you stubbornly choose to parse everything to just pick out what you wish to hear. The continuing statement of “evolution isn’t proven” is childish and beneath any adult who obviously knows what a theory is scientifically. Your continuing in this vein shows only how strong is the psychological urge to have it your way.
 
"Abu kamoon, it’s sad to see you parroting tired lines from hackneyed creationist literature. Your quotation from Kent Hovind – who is now in prison for fraud – is a complete fabrication. Why don’t you try thinking for yourself?

Petrus"

Petrus,

The thoughts are my own. I don’t know who Kent Hovind is. I am just a little more skeptical than you are. I can’t believe that humans are descended from some type of ape like creature. There is such a wide gulf between humans and apes that the idea that they had a common ancestor is ludicrous to me.

Whales, acorn squash and poison ivy are composed of the same elements as humans. Certainly, these elements form molecules that are common to all life forms. This proves nothing. Automobiles and aircraft and television receivers are composed of the same basic elements. This is not proof of the evolution of cars to airplanes to television sets. Rather, it shows devices that were designed and fabricated utilizing common materials and processes.

Imagine, humans being on Earth for hundreds of milllions of years, and leaving no records until a few thousand years ago. Does that make any sense? Evolution is a mindset. People who believe in evolution refuse to look at the absurdities of their theory. They are true believers. Anything that contradicts their theology of evolution is ignored. The fossil recored is only reliable so long as it supports evolution. The same goes for carbon dating. Any evidence that supports the theory is accepted. Any that contradicts it is ignored. And you call that science?
 
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